Repentance Vs Eternal Security

[JGIG]

3. Crosses what Line? We ALL have crossed the line and deserve death. If we were saved when we were at our worse. How can we ever get to the point we are below that (we can't) , and all of a sudden no longer have it??

This is a good point. I'm always curious about the mindset that believes that there is Grace for those in sin, but once one comes to Christ, there is a limit to His Grace.

If God has Grace for the ungodly - so much so that He came in the flesh to die for them - how much more does He love and have Grace for His adopted?

Yes - He who began a good work is faithful to complete it \o/ !

-JGIG

 

[SarahM777]

This is a good point. I'm always curious about the mindset that believes that there is Grace for those in sin, but once one comes to Christ, there is a limit to His Grace.

If God has Grace for the ungodly - so much so that He came in the flesh to die for them - how much more does He love and have Grace for His adopted?

Yes - He who began a good work is faithful to complete it \o/ !

-JGIG

The only thing is UNBELIEF. And that is the heart of the question.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This is a good point. I'm always curious about the mindset that believes that there is Grace for those in sin, but once one comes to Christ, there is a limit to His Grace.

If God has Grace for the ungodly - so much so that He came in the flesh to die for them - how much more does He love and have Grace for His adopted?

Yes - He who began a good work is faithful to complete it \o/ !

-JGIG

You hit the nail on the head. I can not understand this either. And no one has been able to explain it to me.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The only thing is UNBELIEF. And that is the heart of the question.

Yet you still have not explained how someone can truly trust God. and fall into unbelief. I do not see this as possible

The only way I can see it, is if someone never had true faith in the first place. Just mere belief, Which will never save anyone

 

[SarahM777]

Yet you still have not explained how someone can truly trust God. and fall into unbelief. I do not see this as possible

The only way I can see it, is if someone never had true faith in the first place. Just mere belief, Which will never save anyone

EG,it's not a question of whether you see it as being possible. If God said it can then it can happen. The Bible is clear about falling AWAY from the faith which CAN NOT be an unbeliever to begin with,that can ONLY be a believer.

If think about the Bible on those things that are "Impossible" to the human mind,how much of the Bible makes sense?

 

[kennethcadwell]

The bible says that even some of the elect will be fooled by satan. There is many of stories out there of people who have turned from being a Christian. One being of a priest who was a faithful follower and teacher of Gods word for over 30 years, and then his wife was killed in a car crash. Do to anger, sadness, and frustration turned his back on God and stopped teaching and claimed the rest of his life that God did not exist. He stopped believing.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

EG,it's not a question of whether you see it as being possible. If God said it can then it can happen. The Bible is clear about falling AWAY from the faith which CAN NOT be an unbeliever to begin with,that can ONLY be a believer.

No the bible does not say this. The Bible says God is omniscient, He knew us (intimately) before we were even Born. That he knows our whole life before we are even thought of.

If God knows this. He knew a person would fall into unbelief before he even gave them his grace gift. That makes him not very smart. For he knows he will have to take his free gift back. Which means it was nto a gift. It was a downpayment. Is this what salvation is?

If think about the Bible on those things that are "Impossible" to the human mind,how much of the Bible makes sense?

Don't you think Maybe God is talking to people who have a belief, And not saved yet, And maybe warning them to trust him, and not go back to the way they were before? James wrote a whole book on testing our faith. Is it real or is it not. WHy do you think he did that? Because many of us have Belief, but no faith. If we do not have faith. We are not saved.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The bible says that even some of the elect will be fooled by satan. There is many of stories out there of people who have turned from being a Christian. One being of a priest who was a faithful follower and teacher of Gods word for over 30 years, and then his wife was killed in a car crash. Do to anger, sadness, and frustration turned his back on God and stopped teaching and claimed the rest of his life that God did not exist. He stopped believing.

1. Was he ever saved
2. He would be an anti Christ if he denys Christ. John said he was never saved?
3 Was he saved, And did he just ay it out of anger, But inside he still knew God was real. but said it out of anger (I have seen this alot) if so. He was still saved. (God does not deny himself)

 

[kennethcadwell]

Yes he was saved and gave his life to Christ all those years, and helped many others come to Christ. After his wife's death though he stopped preaching and denied Christ the rest of his life.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes he was saved and gave his life to Christ all those years, and helped many others come to Christ. After his wife's death though he stopped preaching and denied Christ the rest of his life.

If he was saved, He still is saved. God will not deny himself. And I guarantee inside He still believed in God. He just said that out of anger. Again, I have seen this many times.

It is sad though. We blaim God when we should blame sin, Which caused the pain and suffering in this world. God is just as angry we are these things happen, It was not supposed to be this way.

 

[kennethcadwell]

If he was saved, He still is saved. God will not deny himself. And I guarantee inside He still believed in God. He just said that out of anger. Again, I have seen this many times.

It is sad though. We blaim God when we should blame sin, Which caused the pain and suffering in this world. God is just as angry we are these things happen, It was not supposed to be this way.

I see where you are going with this and I can see that point, but in revelations and I know he is not here yet it says that even some of the elect will be tricked by the anti-Christ. If they follow him they will endure the lake of fire.

 

[SeaBass]

Yep, Jesus gave them power

Yep, Jesus gave them power

Having the Spirit upon is conditional - being filled with the Spirit is being born again

The new birth is being born of the Spirit - Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh (born of water) and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

If one can read Matt 10 and still come away with the idea Judas was lost, then why not think the other 11 were lost too? The other 11 were no more Christ's disciples as was Judas, they were no more miraculously enable and inspired by the Holy Spirit than Judas. If a person accepted the other 11, it was the same as receiving Christ...receiving Judas was the same as receiving Christ. One would have to approach Mt 10 with a preconceived bias.


Jn 3:5 the "water" refers to water baptism. Paul speaks of the Corinthians being born again in 1 Cor 12:13. Harmonizing 1 Cor 12:13 with Jn 3:5:

Jn 3:5-----------spirit+++++++++++water>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
1Cor12:13------spirit+++++++++++baptized>>>>>>>in the body

Being "in the kingdom" and "in the body" are equivalent terms, both represent salvation. Since there is just one way to be saved, both verses MUST express the exact same idea. So;

spirit is equivalent spirit
water is equivalent to baptized
in the kingdom is equivalent to in the body

 

[SeaBass]

I don't recall asking you a question and or even addressing you in particular as I made a simple statement per say to the question/statement that I addressed....Baptism is a work of righteousness and John 3:5 is referencing a physical birth of a woman and even Jesus and Nicodemus took it that way! That which is born of flesh is flesh and How can a man enter into the womb a second time.........

Except a man be born of (water) a woman and of the spirit (GOD) he cannot enter into the kingdom of God!

Not to mention the fact that the water is mentioned before the spirit......which is contradicts the order of BLOOD BEFORE WATER

I did not say you asked me a question, I was simply pointing out an accusation you made was not true. You evidently are basing your arguments upon false accusations....strawmen.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I see where you are going with this and I can see that point, but in revelations and I know he is not here yet it says that even some of the elect will be tricked by the anti-Christ. If they follow him they will endure the lake of fire.

One must remember, Israel was the elect of God in the OT. It does not mean they were ever saved. So we should not assume it does.

There are only two possibilities.

1. He was saved, Was given eternal life. And still is saved. and will be in heaven, Although probably not many rewards

2. He never fully trusted in Christ. it was a game to him (yes I know he probably thought it was real. many teachers and pastors think this, yet have never really met God) and as John said.

1 John 2: 18 - 19 : Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

I am not in a position to try to judge which one fits. Only God knew his heart when he professed salvation. But these are the only two options available according to the word of God.

 

[SeaBass]

If you believe that, then you must draw the line somewhere:

• What's too much sinning?
• Are there some sins that are worse than others?
• What kinds of sinning are going to put you over that 'line'?
• What Scriptures define that line?
• Do those Scriptures that you may think of define sins that Jesus did not die for?
• Who determines the 'Biblical Standard'?
• What if the backslidden believer comes to repentance (a change of mind and heart about their behavior) and comes back to Christ?
• Can they do so?
• If your answer is yes, then the Conditional Security interpretations of Hebrews 6:4-6 and 10:26 cannot both hold water at the same time . . .

Will anyone answer these questions using contextual Scripture?

I contend that the Eternal Security position has contextual Scriptural answers to all of the above questions without contradictions .

-JGIG

One sin, any sin is enough to keep a Christian out of heaven if he does not repent of his sin. God does not forgive if one does not repent. If one argues repentance for the Christian is not necessary, then the question becomes: how many unrepented-unforgiven sins will the Christian carry into heaven with him?

The prodigal son is an example of a backslidden one returning to be "alive again".

Heb 6 is very clear proof one that is saved " those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come" can fall away.

 

[SeaBass]

This is a good point. I'm always curious about the mindset that believes that there is Grace for those in sin, but once one comes to Christ, there is a limit to His Grace.

If God has Grace for the ungodly - so much so that He came in the flesh to die for them - how much more does He love and have Grace for His adopted?

Not a single verse says God's grace is unconditional.

Yes - He who began a good work is faithful to complete it \o/ !

-JGIG

There are two sides to salvation:

1) God's faithfulness to man
2) Man's faithfulness to God


Eternal Securists are careful to pull out of context just the verses that speak about God's faithfulness to man and wrongly claim that God's faithfulness is because of "eternal security" yet they purposely ignore the verses that speak that man must be faithful to God. No verse says God will remain faithful to those that become unfaithful to Him.


Phil 1:6 "Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ"

The ES pulls this verse out of context and claim God will performs this work unconditionally because of eternal security.

Yet verse 5 says "For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now"

They had remained faithful in the gospel from the first day until now, so God is faithful to continue to perform that good work in them.

So again we have both sides of the equation:

Man's faithfulness in remaining in the gospel
God's faithfulnness in performing that good work in them


As long as they remained in the gospel Paul was confident God would perfom that good work. Had they fallen away, outside the gospel God would not have continued that good work unconditionally.


Those in Galatia had fallen away from the gospel, Gal 1:6 and that unfaithfulness led to their being "fallen from grace" Gal 5:4

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If one can read Matt 10 and still come away with the idea Judas was lost, then why not think the other 11 were lost too? The other 11 were no more Christ's disciples as was Judas, they were no more miraculously enable and inspired by the Holy Spirit than Judas. If a person accepted the other 11, it was the same as receiving Christ...receiving Judas was the same as receiving Christ. One would have to approach Mt 10 with a preconceived bias.

Not true
1. The others were not there just to steal money or to use each other, they were there to learn.
2. The others were not called "devils" Judas was their for a purpose. It is the reason Christ chose him. thayt sole purpose was to turn Christ in.

Jn 3:5 the "water" refers to water baptism. Paul speaks of the Corinthians being born again in 1 Cor 12:13. Harmonizing 1 Cor 12:13 with Jn 3:5:

No it does not. Even nicodemus could not have though this. If it was concerning baptism, Jesus woud have mentioned in in John 3: 16. That whoever believes and is baptized will have eternal life. He did not say it, Because he did not mean it.

1 Cor 12: 13 is the HS baptising us. Not some pastor or priest in water.

FOR BY ONE SPIRIT (it was the HS who did the work) WE were all baptised into ONE BODY.

Jn 3:5-----------spirit+++++++++++water>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
1Cor12:13------spirit+++++++++++baptized>>>>>>>in the body

Being "in the kingdom" and "in the body" are equivalent terms, both represent salvation. Since there is just one way to be saved, both verses MUST express the exact same idea. So;

spirit is equivalent spirit
water is equivalent to baptized
in the kingdom is equivalent to in the body

False.

Water is equivalent to the flesh (that which is flesh is flesh)
Spirit is equivilent to the spirit. (that which is spirit is spirit)

Born again.

Physical (1st birth)
spirit (second birth) or born again.

Even nicodemous would have understood this basic concept. He was the one who asked the question. Must I enter my mothers womb (water) again??

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Not a single verse says God's grace is unconditional.

It does not have to. The very word (charis or grace) means unconditional.

Some people I tell ya. If you would just study you would see..

There are two sides to salvation:

1) God's faithfulness to man
2) Man's faithfulness to God

False.

Man can offer God nothing. Stop thinking so highly of yourself thinking you can possibly give God something which would make you worthy of anything but condemnation.

Eternal Securists are careful to pull out of context just the verses that speak about God's faithfulness to man and wrongly claim that God's faithfulness is because of "eternal security" yet they purposely ignore the verses that speak that man must be faithful to God. No verse says God will remain faithful to those that become unfaithful to Him.

And you ignore all the verses which prove that mere belief (no faith) will walk away and become faithless. But that true faith will never fall away.

And you ignore Gods diety, and full knowledge of everything you will ever do.

You think God is going to give you charity (charis or grace) and save you KNOWING you will walk away?? wow wow wow

Phil 1:6

"Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ"

The ES pulls this verse out of context and claim God will performs this work unconditionally because of eternal security.

No, We trust God that he will do what he promised to do. HE WILL CONTINUE IT.

You twist his words, and call him a liar.

Yet verse 5 says "For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now"

1. Now is not the day of Christ.
2. He was saying God has been faithful from the 1st day until now. And he will continue it until the day of Christ. which is proven by the verses which follow

[SUP]9 [/SUP]And this I pray, that your love may abound still more and more in knowledge and all discernment, [SUP]10 [/SUP]that you may approve the things that are excellent, that you may be sincere and without offense till the day of Christ, [SUP]11 [/SUP]being filled with the fruits of righteousness which are by Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God

nice try, but your trickery was found, and shown to be in error

 

[SeaBass]

It does not have to. The very word (charis or grace) means unconditional.

Some people I tell ya. If you would just study you would see..

You are reading God's grace is unconditional into the bible. You as much admit there is no verse that says God's grace is unconditional.

False.

Man can offer God nothing. Stop thinking so highly of yourself thinking you can possibly give God something which would make you worthy of anything but condemnation.

Those in Phil 1:5 were faithful in staying in the gospel from "the first day until now"

And you ignore all the verses which prove that mere belief (no faith) will walk away and become faithless. But that true faith will never fall away.

And you ignore Gods diety, and full knowledge of everything you will ever do.

You think God is going to give you charity (charis or grace) and save you KNOWING you will walk away?? wow wow wow

I'm just pointing out how Eternal Securists cherry-pick verses, pull them out of context and then attach eternal security to the verse.

Phil 1:6 does NOT say "he who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Jesus Christ because of eternal security"

No, We trust God that he will do what he promised to do. HE WILL CONTINUE IT.

You twist his words, and call him a liar.

Sorry, but the false teacher is the one who adds eternal security into Phil 1:6 thereby perverting God's word.

1. Now is not the day of Christ.
2. He was saying God has been faithful from the 1st day until now. And he will continue it until the day of Christ. which is proven by the verses which follow

[SUP]9 [/SUP]And this I pray, that your love may abound still more and more in knowledge and all discernment, [SUP]10 [/SUP]that you may approve the things that are excellent, that you may be sincere and without offense till the day of Christ, [SUP]11 [/SUP]being filled with the fruits of righteousness which are by Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God

nice try, but your trickery was found, and shown to be in error

Paul did not say "now is the day of Christ'. But is referring to when he first preached in Philippi for their CONTINUED faithfulness in fellowship in the gospel.


Coffman Commentary aptly put it: (my emp)

It should be noted here that Paul's confidence was not in the Philippians but in God. It was the conduct of those Philippians up to that point which inspired Paul with confidence concerning their ultimate destiny. As Hendriksen put it:

Your perseverance in sympathetic participation in the work of the gospel ([URL="http://christianchat.com/desk/?q=php+1:5&t=en_nas&sr=1"]Philippians 1:5​

) has convinced me that you are the objects of divine preservation (Philippians 1:6). These two must not be separated[17]


​

It is true that God did foreordain and predestinate such souls to eternal life; but there was absolutely nothing in God's so doing to compel the Philippians to be such souls! That is not what Paul declared here; but rather his declaration is that the evidence proved the Philippians to be such souls, as attested by their conduct throughout his acquaintance with them, and that God would surely reward them eternally, such a confidence, of course, being contingent upon the fact of the Philippians continuing to be such souls. (17) William Hendriksen, op. cit., p. 51.

--------------

Verses 10,11 "That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ. Being filled with the fruits of righteousness,"

If eternal security were true, then salvation is NOT CONDITIONAL upon those Philippian Christians to be sincere, without offense and filled with fruits of righteousness. They could be insincere, with offense and be filled with fruits of UNrighteousness and still be sved if ES were true.

So are you going to argue their salvation was CONDITONAL or UNCONDITIONAL upon being sincere, without offense and being filled with fruits of righteousness?

 

[SeaBass]

Not true
1. The others were not there just to steal money or to use each other, they were there to learn.
2. The others were not called "devils" Judas was their for a purpose. It is the reason Christ chose him. thayt sole purpose was to turn Christ in.

There is NOTHING in the context of Matt 10 that says Judas was not sincere, not there tolearn while the other 11 were sincere and there to learn, you are ADDING that idea to that context to avoid theproblem you have withJudas forfieting his salvation.

No it does not. Even nicodemus could not have though this. If it was concerning baptism, Jesus woud have mentioned in in John 3: 16. That whoever believes and is baptized will have eternal life. He did not say it, Because he did not mean it.

1 Cor 12: 13 is the HS baptising us. Not some pastor or priest in water.

FOR BY ONE SPIRIT (it was the HS who did the work) WE were all baptised into ONE BODY.



False.

Water is equivalent to the flesh (that which is flesh is flesh)
Spirit is equivilent to the spirit. (that which is spirit is spirit)

Born again.

Physical (1st birth)
spirit (second birth) or born again.

Even nicodemous would have understood this basic concept. He was the one who asked the question. Must I enter my mothers womb (water) again??

The bibe is it's own best commentary:

Jn 3:5-----------spirit+++++++++++water>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
1Cor12:13------spirit+++++++++++baptized>>>>>>>in the body


Again, since there is just ONE way to be saved, one way to be born again, then both verses MUST express the same idea.

Neither verse says it takes spirit++spirit to be in the kingdom/ in the body.



Amazingly you posted:

Water is equivalent to the flesh (that which is flesh is flesh)
Spirit is equivilent to the spirit. (that which is spirit is spirit)

Your bias agaisnt the biblical teaching of the necessity of water baptism is painfully obvious. You have no problem at all with spirit being equivalent to spirit but cannot for the OBVIOUSLY BIASED reason let water be water.


Nicodemus was a full grown man standing in front of Jesus. So Jesus had to tell this full grown, already physcially born man "Except you are physically born..." Jesus had no idea Nicodemus was ALREADY physically born????

Besides this the new birth was NOT something Nicodemus had experienced while he had already experienced the physical birth. So the new birth has nothing to do with the physical birth...."Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." 1 Pet 1:23

In 1 Cor 12;13 baptized is not equivalent to "flesh" but to water....water baptism the same baptized Paul, a human, adminstered to some of the Corinthians himself, the ONE baptism of Eph 4:5.

Acts 18:8 "....and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized." Mk 16:16 he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved.

1 Cor 6:11 "And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit"

Washed refers to their having been water baptized. The middle voice shows it was something they had done to themselves...."but ye had yourselves washed" Baptism was not some passive spirit baptism done to them but something they actively chose of their own free-will to submit themselves to. Water baptism is a command that one chooses of his own free will to submit to/obey. Baptism with the HS was never commanded so it cannot be obeyed by one's free will choice.