I shall post the first entry around 7 am. It will be done here because I think others will also want to see this material.
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I shall post the first entry around 7 am. It will be done here because I think others will also want to see this material.
GOD AND THE FINITE MIND
By oldhermitt
Language exists initially only in the mind. The tongue can only communicate what the mind is able to conceive. In order for one to communicate through the medium of language, one must first be able to attach language to an idea. For example, any time we think about a person or an object our mind automatically creates an image to correspond with that object as a frame of reference. This is simply how the mind works. When we talk to another person about our favorite car, our mind creates an image of that car. We are then able to connect language to that image and effectively communicate that image to the other person. If the other person has had somewhat similar experiences with cars, both parties have a common frame of reference as a foundation for communication. If, on the other hand, we attempt to talk about something with which we have no experience or familiarity we find we are unable to create an accurate image of that unfamiliar object in our mind. As a result, we are unable to connect language to the idea and effectively communicate the idea to someone else. One would not be able to explain the concept of a car to someone who has never seen a car or even knew that such a thing existed. The receiver would not have the language available to create that image in his mind and the communication process would quite naturally break down. The hearer receives the description as a string of words but is unable to formulate the concept of a car in his mind. We simply cannot comprehend or communicate accurately that which we have no language to describe.
When we talk about God, our mind is unable to formulate an accurate image since we have no experience with God at the sensory level. We simply have no point of reference from which to envision God. Every individual, despite cultural or religious exposure, will envision God in their own mind according to his or her concept of God, which is invariably formed out of one’s exposure to various religious teachings and cultural experiences. We do this because our mind must have some frame of reference to which to connect language. Since we are unable to connect our senses to the unseen world, we connect what is unseen to the natural world. We can only create a mental image of God according to our own individual points of reference. Idolatry creates god in the image of things that are part of human experiences. This is precisely what Israel did when they came to Mt. Sinai. Moses had been their only visible iconic connection with the invisible God. When Moses disappeared for forty days, Israel decided to adopt a familiar image that they could corporately associate as God. What they did was create a familiar frame of reference. They created a god in the form of something with which they all had experience, the golden calf of Egypt. It seems that when visible representations are taken away, man will attempt to replace them in order to maintain some sense of connection with their idea of the unseen. In the Hebrew camp, there is a sense of abandonment and uncertainty. Since their only visible representation had disappeared, they replaced him with another. They turned to the natural world to create something they felt would give them a sense of continuity. Apart from a revelation from God about himself, man will always fall into some form of idolatry. The farther away man gets from revelation the more naturalistic and perverted his image of God will become, Deuteronomy 4:15-19.
How we understand ourselves and interpret our interaction with the world is directly proportionate to our understanding of God and his involvement in the natural dimension. The reality of God and our perception of God will always be two different things. God will always transcend what man says that he is and man will never be able to grasp all that God says he is. The personality of God is not fully accessible based on the parameters of human language or reason. God never exists on the same plain as man. He always transcends the natural world and stands outside of man’s ability to rationalize. We cannot conceptualize God based on language that is formed out of the natural world. As a result, man is incapable of developing a language use that will allow him to formulate a legitimate understanding of God. The only language use upon which we can rely is a revealed grammar. God uses scripture to provide a linguistic link to the mind of man. Although scripture allows us to see God through the eyes of faith, we are still unable to understand fully all that scripture tells us about God. Since this is true, how will a representational study of scripture help us to develop a clearer understanding of God?
One barrier we must confront if we are to approach this study on the nature of God less encumbered must be that of our own intelligence. Since our intelligence is something that we routinely rely upon to help us understand certain things about the natural world, this will not be an easy thing to bring under control. Although it serves us well in this respect and fulfills a proper created function, it will not serve us well as a requisite for understanding God. To understand God, we must look beyond the limitations of human intelligence into revelation. Human intelligence operates from the platform of pragmatic experience. Faith, on the other hand, is grounded in things that are unseen and operates outside experiential parameters. While our intelligence has an assigned place in our connection with the universe, it must be rendered subordinate to the intelligence of God. God does not call us to intellectualism but to faith. If human intelligence were in any way sufficient to understand things of the non-natural world, what need would we have for revelation? Human intelligence that is unconditioned by revelation will always prove a hindrance to man’s understanding of God. Therefore, we must bring the human intelligence factor under the control of the superior intelligence of the Creator. God will not prostrate himself to man’s image of who he believes God to be. If we are to develop a clearer understanding of God, it must be on God’s terms.
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Donkeyfish07
Guest
Thanks for the link, but to respond to the emboldened part......Both Monotheists and Trinitarinans would agree with that statement. It's the false interpretations going around that are causing confusion (Not just on Trinity, but on many biblical topics). Both sides just disagree on which camp is the false interpretation.
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Donkeyfish07
Guest
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Donkeyfish07
Guest
Agreed.....no one disputes that Jesus and God are one, the rebuttal to this from Monotheistic thought is:
John 17:20-22:
"Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which you gave me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:"
If Jesus saying "I and the Father are one" literally means that he IS the One True God. And he is praying for us to be one in them EVEN as they are one in each other......would that not mean he is praying for us to be God? It would have to mean that if your going to follow the logic being applied to John 10:30. This is why Monotheists do not view John 10:30 in the same fashion as Trinitarians do. It's a very good reason too.
Monotheism puts more emphasis on the aspect of them dwelling within each other, abiding in each other.
like in John 14:10:
"Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works."
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If I may, let me suggest a piece of advice. Do not concern yourself with the differences between Monotheism (which is divided into two camps – Adoptionism and Modalism), Unitarianism, Tritheism, and Trinitarianism. These terms are quite irrelevant. It really does not matter what difference or similarities may exist between these four theological theories. Only concern yourself with trying to understand how scripture presents the concepts of the nature of God without regard to any human classifications and ignore all the rest.
I would like someone who believes Jesus is not God to explain the alternative possibility to those scriptures.
Well, since these passages clearly present the divine nature of the Word, I do not think I can help you with this.
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Donkeyfish07
Guest
I'm one hundred percent with you on that brother. I only use the term "Monotheist" and "Trinitarian" because it's just a convenient label that I'm assuming everyone understands. If I knew of a better way to communicate when I use those terms, I would not use them. Monotheists generally means the belief God is only One. Trinitarian generally means the belief that the Godhead is Three. I could have just worded it "Well people that believe God is only One"......but why type all that out when I can just say Monotheist?
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Donkeyfish07
Guest
My post number #496 a page or two back touches upon this. It's a post about both viewpoints on John 1. It's an ongoing discussion. Tommorrow, Old Hermit and Midnight Welder will be here to discuss it further along with myself tomorrow morning.
If you like I can cut and past the Greek text with LINKS so you can look up the words. But, that would be to hide the truth in plain English.
We need to talk about Hermes or Mercury because he was the LOGOS of the Greeks and others. Hermes was part of the always-pagan trinity. As ANTIthesis (for we readers). No one who knows the GREEK LITERATURE can fail to grasp that the literal father-mother-son is rank paganism. God IMAGED Himself as a SINGULAR visible-audible entity to make certain that disciples could not miss the point. If you sell the free water of the Word God will make certain that He will HIDE from you.
The Israelites rose up in PLAY (musical idolatry) around Apis representing Osiris, Isis and infant Horus. This is the pattern for all pagan trinities. This was a sin beyond redemption. The Catholic trinity with Mary as the Mediatrix is what theologians have grasped but their scholars refute it.
Hermes was the hired hand for ZEUS and those corrupting the Word meaning selling learning at wholesale adopted the pagan trinity under the NEW HERMENEUTICS. Only very liberals reject the clear statement of Scripture which Christ in Isaiah 55 told ME not to pay for.
Their father is ZEUS and you will hear preachers calling Jesus Je-zeus meaning HAIL ZEUS.
pa^tēr II. Especially as epith. of Zeus, patēr Zeus, p. Kronidēs, p. andrōn te theōn
Kron-idēs [i^, ou, ho, Patron., A.son of Cronos, i.e. Zeus, Il.1.498, al.; Zeus K. 2.111,
Kairos (end time) aka Hermes/Mercury is the son of Chronos as in THRUST IN THE SICKLE the fruit is ripe.
OR pater is the Father of Jesus whom the Father MADE TO BE both Lord and Christ. He was neither Lord nor Christ (Messiah) until God ordained him. Jesus was of the SEED of Mary all of the way back to ABRAHAM. THEREFORE, Jesus of Nazareth did not exist until he was BORN. SEED means SPERM. That is the TRINITARIANS claim that the father god had sex with the mother goddess (spirit). And that is heresy.
Matthew 7:21 [21] Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of MY Father WHO IS IN HEAVEN.
Malachi 2:10 Have we not all one father? hath not ONE GOD created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?
Mark 12:32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is ONE GOD; and there is none other but HE:
Romans 3:30 Seeing it is ONE GOD which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
1Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, OF whom are all things, and we in him;
and one Lord Jesus Christ, BY whom are all things, and we by him.
Ephesians 4:6 ONE GOD and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
1Timothy 2:5 For there is ONE GOD and one mediator between God and men, the MAN Christ Jesus;
James 2:19 Thou believest that there is ONE GOD; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
You really are a bit off, aren't you? Don't bother with the links, as I have lots of concordances, and exegetical books to use for Greek. And a lot of words, I just know, because I read the language.
I don't know Latin, and I don't care to. If you would have read any of the exegetical posts here, you would realize how wrong you are.
Let's talk about the Bible, instead of this nonsense of the same post over and over, and about things that have nothing to do with the deity of Christ. Fully God and fully man!
Jesus said that truth had been hidden in PARABLES from the foundation of the world: In Isaiah 48 this is to set a trap for those who sell the free Word and claiming authority.
alpha , to, indecl. (pl. A.“ta a.” Arist.Metaph.1087a8),
2. T-square, Eustr. in EN74.2.
4. metaph., to alpha kai to ō the first and last, Apoc.1.8, al.
The LOGOS or WORD is the Regulative Principle or Governing Principle. God ARTICULATED through Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus teachings therefore are the FIRST PRINCIPLES which does not translate to be GOD: that's preacher school stuff.
Aristot. Met. 14.1087a All thinkers make the first principles contraries; as in the realm of natural objects, so too in respect of the unchangeable substances.Now if nothing can be prior to the first principle of all things, that first principle cannot be first principle if it is an attribute of something else. This would be as absurd as to say that "white" is the first principle, not qua anything else but qua white, and yet that it is predicable of a subject, and is white because it is an attribute of something else; because the latter will be prior to it.Moreover, all things are generated from contraries as from a substrate, and therefore contraries must most certainly have a substrate.
alpha , to, indecl. (pl. A.“ta a.” Arist.Metaph.1087a8),
2. T-square, Eustr. in EN74.2.
4. metaph., to alpha kai to ō the first and last, Apoc.1.8, al.
The LOGOS or WORD is the Regulative Principle or Governing Principle. God ARTICULATED through Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus teachings therefore are the FIRST PRINCIPLES which does not translate to be GOD: that's preacher school stuff.
Aristot. Met. 14.1087a All thinkers make the first principles contraries; as in the realm of natural objects, so too in respect of the unchangeable substances.Now if nothing can be prior to the first principle of all things, that first principle cannot be first principle if it is an attribute of something else. This would be as absurd as to say that "white" is the first principle, not qua anything else but qua white, and yet that it is predicable of a subject, and is white because it is an attribute of something else; because the latter will be prior to it.Moreover, all things are generated from contraries as from a substrate, and therefore contraries must most certainly have a substrate.
When I quoted the ABSOLUTE CERTAIN TEXT:
Mark 12:32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is ONE GOD; and there is none other but HE:
Notice that Mark 12:32 thingy? No? Well, that is in the Bible and in ENGLISH: But maybe you don't want to know English?
Without Latin you are a babe taking a bath in the ocean. Most of the historic documents INCLUDING the first use of the word TRIAS is Latin. And no one prior to the latter day preacher's schools ever understood ONE GOD THE FATHER and ONE JESUS whom God made to be both Lord and Christ as being THREE GODS but being ONE because they are "friendly."
"For God alone my soul waits in silence;
from HM comes my salvation.
[SUP]2[/SUP] HE alone is my rock and my salvation,
my fortress; I shall not be greatly shaken." Psalm 62:1-2
I certainly hope that THEY do not read this forum. There is ONE GOD and ONE MEDIATOR the MAN Jesus Christ. Jesus is the MEDIATOR MAN without whom you cannot approach the ONE GOD THE FATHER. ONE is UNO or HEIS and never means THREE. Never listen to people who think that they can convince you that LOGOS means a PERSON unless they have read the New Hermeneutic and are confusing HERMES as the LITERAL pagan view of the Messenger of God being ANOTHER GOD.
why does Western thought have such a hard time understanding God having aspects and incarnations? is it the humanist basis of our earthly logic?
to a converted Hindu, the divinity of Jesus does not generate such arguments. i think we have some things to learn from our brothers in the East.
to a converted Hindu, the divinity of Jesus does not generate such arguments. i think we have some things to learn from our brothers in the East.
i don't think you understand what a "parable" is.
If anyone teaches a different doctrine and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the teaching that accords with godliness, he is puffed up with conceit and understands nothing.
He has an unhealthy craving for controversy and for quarrels about words, which produce envy, dissension, slander, evil suspicions, and constant friction among people who are depraved in mind and deprived of the truth, imagining that godliness is a means of gain.
(1 Timothy 6:3-5)
isn't it great how the Spirit saw fit to tell us these things plainly, ahead of time?
God is Great!
Jesus was a human. Jesus had a purpose from a Holy Spirit, to die to save us from our sins. The Spirit has stated that, that Jesus was a man. Things can be stretched many ways. For instance, God is the Father in Heaven, so Jesus would say his father is in Heaven, or his heavenly father. That can be stretched to "if God's the father in Heaven, wouldn't Jesus be a son? or stretch it to all of us are the father's children. Jesus wasn't God. Scripture is misleading at some points, very misleading. Possibly someone with the viewpoint of seeing Jesus do miracles and saying "oh he is God!". Harsh reality for Jesus, that he was going to die to save us from our sins, and the Spirit had him do it.
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