-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
S
What's unique about the bible is that it's not about heroes getting all the credit for their righteous deeds, neither are worshipped and honored in such a way. It's about a perfect God who is omnipresent in an imperfect world, who devotes His time with imperfect people to use them mightily for His divine plan.
Our message isn't the best in this modern world. We emphasize our need for a Savior, who doesn't change, who isn't wicked, nor turn against those who love Him. Unlike other religions, our God stays true even to the very end. Always faithful and just. Teaching what's right and wrong. Teaching humanity's true nature, stuff that people don't like talking about because it's true.
Our message isn't the best in this modern world. We emphasize our need for a Savior, who doesn't change, who isn't wicked, nor turn against those who love Him. Unlike other religions, our God stays true even to the very end. Always faithful and just. Teaching what's right and wrong. Teaching humanity's true nature, stuff that people don't like talking about because it's true.
I am saying the following...
1. That if you study the history of the above kingdoms and the gods and goddesses that were worshipped including the female goddesses you will find that they are the same entities and the only thing that changes is the names and the worship which sometimes becomes regional and or centralized around that particular culture.
2. When Jesus writes by John's hand to the church at Pergamos He tells the church that He knows they dwell where (Satan's) seat is located<------Throne of Zeus was located in Pergamos
3. All tied into a process called Apo-Theosis and the particular King, Satrap, Leader etc. went though a process where they were emptied of self and taken over by the Spirit of the god and became god's themselves.
4. Goes all the way back to the geo-political-religious unification of man under one man worshipped as god at the tower of Babel under Nimrod. Satan's continuing attempt/hindered by God as it is not yet time or was not yet time....this will culminate at the end of the age with the beast/false prophet and their kingdom.....
5. Google U.S. capitol dome and view the Apo-Theosis of George Washington....
By the way....Lady Liberty traces all the way back to Egypt and is called Ishtar in Babylon and is known as the goddess that made war from the air!
Isis-->Ashthera-->Ishtar-->Astaroth-->Astarte/Aphrodite-->Libertas--->LADY LIBERTY
1. That if you study the history of the above kingdoms and the gods and goddesses that were worshipped including the female goddesses you will find that they are the same entities and the only thing that changes is the names and the worship which sometimes becomes regional and or centralized around that particular culture.
2. When Jesus writes by John's hand to the church at Pergamos He tells the church that He knows they dwell where (Satan's) seat is located<------Throne of Zeus was located in Pergamos
3. All tied into a process called Apo-Theosis and the particular King, Satrap, Leader etc. went though a process where they were emptied of self and taken over by the Spirit of the god and became god's themselves.
4. Goes all the way back to the geo-political-religious unification of man under one man worshipped as god at the tower of Babel under Nimrod. Satan's continuing attempt/hindered by God as it is not yet time or was not yet time....this will culminate at the end of the age with the beast/false prophet and their kingdom.....
5. Google U.S. capitol dome and view the Apo-Theosis of George Washington....
By the way....Lady Liberty traces all the way back to Egypt and is called Ishtar in Babylon and is known as the goddess that made war from the air!
Isis-->Ashthera-->Ishtar-->Astaroth-->Astarte/Aphrodite-->Libertas--->LADY LIBERTY
S
Well Satan is good at deception. There was a idol named Molech/Moloch which people use to sacrifice and sexually abuse their children for worship. You said you read the bible, Israel worshipped a lot of false gods which caused them to separate themselves farther from God, being punished over and over again, because they kept doing it over and over again until God was fed up and kept delivering them into slavery and such to their neighboring countries.
Last edited by a moderator:
I called Prometheus a hero because of his personal sacrifice, but he was an Olympian god.
The deity of the Old Testament strikes many of us as being far from perfect. For starters he declares himself a jealous god, and we all know that nothing good comes of jealousy.
He uses people for his own purposes you say? I know you didn't mean it to sound that way, but I'd feel safer around an indifferent god. I wonder what offense Noah's in-laws were guilty of committing? His wife was good enough to save, but not her parents, nor her siblings, nor her young nieces and nephews? How did she feel when Noah shut them out upon Yahweh's command? Indeed, Righteous gods are dangerous. I used the proper name Yahweh because that is what God is called in the Noah account, that and Elohim.
The deity of the Old Testament strikes many of us as being far from perfect. For starters he declares himself a jealous god, and we all know that nothing good comes of jealousy.
He uses people for his own purposes you say? I know you didn't mean it to sound that way, but I'd feel safer around an indifferent god. I wonder what offense Noah's in-laws were guilty of committing? His wife was good enough to save, but not her parents, nor her siblings, nor her young nieces and nephews? How did she feel when Noah shut them out upon Yahweh's command? Indeed, Righteous gods are dangerous. I used the proper name Yahweh because that is what God is called in the Noah account, that and Elohim.
A
The declaration of Exodus 34:6, which appears to assure us that God is not jealous, is repeated ten times in the Old Testament: “The LORD, the LORD, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness, maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin.”
Other texts, however, appear to assert that God is indeed jealous. Exodus 20:5 clearly states, “I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God.” Deuteronomy 29:20 reiterates, “The LORD will never be willing to forgive [the person who invokes God’s blessing on himself and goes his own way thinking it is safe to do as he pleases]; his wrath and zeal [jealousy] will burn against that man.” Psalm 78:58 asserts, “They angered him with their high places; they aroused his jealousy with their idols.” Ezekiel 36:5 confirms, “This is what the Sovereign LORD says: In my burning zeal [or jealousy] I have spoken against the rest of the nations and against all Edom, for with glee and with malice in their hearts they made my land their own possession so that they might plunder its pastureland.”
So how are we to understand God?
The anthropopathic descriptions of God (which describe God’s emotions in human terms) help us understand that God is not just an abstract idea but a living and active person. He does have emotions similar to our human emotions of jealousy, vengeance, anger, patience and goodness—with the exception that none of these are tainted with sin.
Certainly God has many agreeable traits, as Nahum 1:7 goes on to affirm: “The Lord is good. … He cares for those who trust in him.” In Nahum 1:3 God is also described as being “slow to anger and great in power.” But what of his seemingly less attractive emotions?
God’s jealousy is often linked in Scripture with his anger. As such, it is an expression of his holiness: “I will be zealous [or jealous] for my holy name” (Ezek 39:25). But in no sense is his jealousy or zeal explosive or irrational. Those depicting the God of the Old Testament as having a mysterious if not primal force, which could break out against any of his creatures at any time for any or no reason, have an overly active imagination. Never does God’s zeal or wrath border on caprice or the demonic.
God’s wrath is indeed a terrible reality in both Testaments, but it always reflects a totally consistent personality which cannot abide the presence of sin. God’s anger never causes him to avenge himself or retaliate, as if he were briefly insane. In our Lord, anger may be defined as his arousing himself to act against sin.
The same could be said about the word translated “vengeance” in the hard saying at hand. Divine vengeance can only be understood in the light of the Old Testament’s teaching on the holiness and justice of God. Of the seventy-eight times this word is used in the Old Testament, fifty-one involve situations where God is the perpetrator. The classical text is Deuteronomy 32:35, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay.” God cannot be God if he allows sin and rebellion to go unpunished. His very character cries out for the opposite.
Basically, there are two ways in which God takes vengeance: (1) he becomes the champion of those oppressed by the enemy (Ps 94) and (2) he punishes those who break covenant with him (Lev 26:24–25).
If the book of Nahum appears to exhibit savage joy over the crushing defeat of the Assyrian capital, Nineveh, the question must arise: When is one justified in rejoicing over the downfall of a despotic and tyrannical nation? If the answer is that one must wait until the rejoicing nation has been purged of their own sins, then we should be careful in our smugness over the destruction of Nazi Germany. Our own purging may lie ahead.
Contrary to the popular criticism of the book of Nahum, Nahum’s condemnation of Nineveh grows out of a moral and ethical concept of God. In the prophet’s thought, God is sovereign Lord over the whole creation, including all the nations. As a holy God, he abhors any form of unrighteousness, but all the more when it is committed on an international scale.
There are three basic reasons why God decreed the end of the Assyrian empire. First, the Assyrians not only opposed Israel, they opposed God (Nahum 1:9, 11, 14). Second, they flouted the law and moral order of God. Not only did Assyria draw her own citizens into the dragnet of idolatry, but she also lured many other nations into her practices, just as a harlot lures her prey to destruction (Nahum 2:13; 3:4). Finally, Assyria’s imperial greed provoked robberies and wrongs of every sort.
God, therefore, does not indifferently and helplessly watch the sins of the nations multiply. Instead, he is a warmhearted, understanding, but thoroughly just and righteous God who will act against those who persist in flouting everything he is and stands for. The fact that God expresses jealousy, vengeance or wrath is a sign that he cares for his people and champions their cause. He can and he will administer justice with equity among the nations.
The words jealousy—or, as it is more accurately rendered when referring to God, zeal—and vengeance may both be used in a good and a bad sense. When applied to God, they denote that God is intensely concerned for his own character and reputation. Thus, everything that ultimately threatens his honor, esteem and reverence may be regarded as the object of his jealousy and vengeance. The metaphor best depicting this emotion is that of the jealous husband, which God is said to be when false gods and false allegiances play the parts of suitors and potential paramours. He cannot and will not tolerate rivalry of any kind—our spiritual lives depend on his tenacious hold on us.
See also comment on EXODUS 20:4–6; PSALMS 5:5; 11:5.
Kaiser, W. C., Jr., Davids, P. H., Bruce, F. F., & Brauch, M. T. (1996). Hard sayings of the Bible (338–339). Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity.
Other texts, however, appear to assert that God is indeed jealous. Exodus 20:5 clearly states, “I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God.” Deuteronomy 29:20 reiterates, “The LORD will never be willing to forgive [the person who invokes God’s blessing on himself and goes his own way thinking it is safe to do as he pleases]; his wrath and zeal [jealousy] will burn against that man.” Psalm 78:58 asserts, “They angered him with their high places; they aroused his jealousy with their idols.” Ezekiel 36:5 confirms, “This is what the Sovereign LORD says: In my burning zeal [or jealousy] I have spoken against the rest of the nations and against all Edom, for with glee and with malice in their hearts they made my land their own possession so that they might plunder its pastureland.”
So how are we to understand God?
The anthropopathic descriptions of God (which describe God’s emotions in human terms) help us understand that God is not just an abstract idea but a living and active person. He does have emotions similar to our human emotions of jealousy, vengeance, anger, patience and goodness—with the exception that none of these are tainted with sin.
Certainly God has many agreeable traits, as Nahum 1:7 goes on to affirm: “The Lord is good. … He cares for those who trust in him.” In Nahum 1:3 God is also described as being “slow to anger and great in power.” But what of his seemingly less attractive emotions?
God’s jealousy is often linked in Scripture with his anger. As such, it is an expression of his holiness: “I will be zealous [or jealous] for my holy name” (Ezek 39:25). But in no sense is his jealousy or zeal explosive or irrational. Those depicting the God of the Old Testament as having a mysterious if not primal force, which could break out against any of his creatures at any time for any or no reason, have an overly active imagination. Never does God’s zeal or wrath border on caprice or the demonic.
God’s wrath is indeed a terrible reality in both Testaments, but it always reflects a totally consistent personality which cannot abide the presence of sin. God’s anger never causes him to avenge himself or retaliate, as if he were briefly insane. In our Lord, anger may be defined as his arousing himself to act against sin.
The same could be said about the word translated “vengeance” in the hard saying at hand. Divine vengeance can only be understood in the light of the Old Testament’s teaching on the holiness and justice of God. Of the seventy-eight times this word is used in the Old Testament, fifty-one involve situations where God is the perpetrator. The classical text is Deuteronomy 32:35, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay.” God cannot be God if he allows sin and rebellion to go unpunished. His very character cries out for the opposite.
Basically, there are two ways in which God takes vengeance: (1) he becomes the champion of those oppressed by the enemy (Ps 94) and (2) he punishes those who break covenant with him (Lev 26:24–25).
If the book of Nahum appears to exhibit savage joy over the crushing defeat of the Assyrian capital, Nineveh, the question must arise: When is one justified in rejoicing over the downfall of a despotic and tyrannical nation? If the answer is that one must wait until the rejoicing nation has been purged of their own sins, then we should be careful in our smugness over the destruction of Nazi Germany. Our own purging may lie ahead.
Contrary to the popular criticism of the book of Nahum, Nahum’s condemnation of Nineveh grows out of a moral and ethical concept of God. In the prophet’s thought, God is sovereign Lord over the whole creation, including all the nations. As a holy God, he abhors any form of unrighteousness, but all the more when it is committed on an international scale.
There are three basic reasons why God decreed the end of the Assyrian empire. First, the Assyrians not only opposed Israel, they opposed God (Nahum 1:9, 11, 14). Second, they flouted the law and moral order of God. Not only did Assyria draw her own citizens into the dragnet of idolatry, but she also lured many other nations into her practices, just as a harlot lures her prey to destruction (Nahum 2:13; 3:4). Finally, Assyria’s imperial greed provoked robberies and wrongs of every sort.
God, therefore, does not indifferently and helplessly watch the sins of the nations multiply. Instead, he is a warmhearted, understanding, but thoroughly just and righteous God who will act against those who persist in flouting everything he is and stands for. The fact that God expresses jealousy, vengeance or wrath is a sign that he cares for his people and champions their cause. He can and he will administer justice with equity among the nations.
The words jealousy—or, as it is more accurately rendered when referring to God, zeal—and vengeance may both be used in a good and a bad sense. When applied to God, they denote that God is intensely concerned for his own character and reputation. Thus, everything that ultimately threatens his honor, esteem and reverence may be regarded as the object of his jealousy and vengeance. The metaphor best depicting this emotion is that of the jealous husband, which God is said to be when false gods and false allegiances play the parts of suitors and potential paramours. He cannot and will not tolerate rivalry of any kind—our spiritual lives depend on his tenacious hold on us.
See also comment on EXODUS 20:4–6; PSALMS 5:5; 11:5.
Kaiser, W. C., Jr., Davids, P. H., Bruce, F. F., & Brauch, M. T. (1996). Hard sayings of the Bible (338–339). Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity.
S
I was going to explain the first part, but then I found a more well said explanation than mine...
It is important to understand how the word “jealous” is used. Its use in Exodus 20:5to describe God is different from how it is used to describe the sin of jealousy (Galatians 5:20). When we use the word “jealous,” we use it in the sense of being envious of someone who has something we do not have. A person might be jealous or envious of another person because he or she has a nice car or home (possessions). Or a person might be jealous or envious of another person because of some ability or skill that other person has (such as athletic ability). Another example would be that one person might be jealous or envious of another because of his or her beauty.
In Exodus 20:5, it is not that God is jealous or envious because someone has something He wants or needs.Exodus 20:4-5 says, “You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God...” Notice that God is jealous when someone gives to another something that rightly belongs to Him.
In these verses, God is speaking of people making idols and bowing down and worshiping those idols instead of giving God the worship that belongs to Him alone. God is possessive of the worship and service that belong to Him. It is a sin (as God points out in this commandment) to worship or serve anything other than God. It is a sin when we desire, or we are envious, or we are jealous of someone because he has something that we do not have. It is a different use of the word “jealous” when God says He is jealous. What He is jealous of belongs to Him; worship and service belong to Him alone, and are to be given to Him alone.
Perhaps a practical example will help us understand the difference. If a husband sees another man flirting with his wife, he is right to be jealous, for only he has the right to flirt with his wife. This type of jealousy is not sinful. Rather, it is entirely appropriate. Being jealous for something that God declares to belong to you is good and appropriate. Jealousy is a sin when it is a desire for something that does not belong to you. Worship, praise, honor, and adoration belong to God alone, for only He is truly worthy of it. Therefore, God is rightly jealous when worship, praise, honor, or adoration is given to idols. This is precisely the jealousy the apostle Paul described in2 Corinthians 11:2, “I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy...”
Read more:Why is God a jealous God? <----- here's the link
It is important to understand how the word “jealous” is used. Its use in Exodus 20:5to describe God is different from how it is used to describe the sin of jealousy (Galatians 5:20). When we use the word “jealous,” we use it in the sense of being envious of someone who has something we do not have. A person might be jealous or envious of another person because he or she has a nice car or home (possessions). Or a person might be jealous or envious of another person because of some ability or skill that other person has (such as athletic ability). Another example would be that one person might be jealous or envious of another because of his or her beauty.
In Exodus 20:5, it is not that God is jealous or envious because someone has something He wants or needs.Exodus 20:4-5 says, “You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God...” Notice that God is jealous when someone gives to another something that rightly belongs to Him.
In these verses, God is speaking of people making idols and bowing down and worshiping those idols instead of giving God the worship that belongs to Him alone. God is possessive of the worship and service that belong to Him. It is a sin (as God points out in this commandment) to worship or serve anything other than God. It is a sin when we desire, or we are envious, or we are jealous of someone because he has something that we do not have. It is a different use of the word “jealous” when God says He is jealous. What He is jealous of belongs to Him; worship and service belong to Him alone, and are to be given to Him alone.
Perhaps a practical example will help us understand the difference. If a husband sees another man flirting with his wife, he is right to be jealous, for only he has the right to flirt with his wife. This type of jealousy is not sinful. Rather, it is entirely appropriate. Being jealous for something that God declares to belong to you is good and appropriate. Jealousy is a sin when it is a desire for something that does not belong to you. Worship, praise, honor, and adoration belong to God alone, for only He is truly worthy of it. Therefore, God is rightly jealous when worship, praise, honor, or adoration is given to idols. This is precisely the jealousy the apostle Paul described in2 Corinthians 11:2, “I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy...”
Read more:Why is God a jealous God? <----- here's the link
Last edited by a moderator:
S
Cycel, to the last part, if you read the story obviously everyone was at that time corrupted and evil. Committed acts against God. It would be no surprise if the wives' family would be with the world in wickedness. I find the judgement righteous and good since they didn't repent at all.
Last edited by a moderator:
I honestly don't know much about it. Wikipedia, in an article that is stated to be in need of improvement, states that there in no single holy book. Contemporary pagans are as diverse as contemporary Christianity, I am led to believe, though another site states: "The White Goddess is a key book for modern Pagans and Wiccans. Subtitled 'A Historical Grammar of Poetic Myth', Robert Graves investigates the links between poetry, mythology and the worship of the Goddess. The White Goddess had a profound influence on Gerald Gardner, the modern reinventor of Paganism."
Graves wrote I Claudius, and several other books. He was an scholar of antiquity. His historic novels, I Claudius and The Golden Fleece are excellent reads.
Graves wrote I Claudius, and several other books. He was an scholar of antiquity. His historic novels, I Claudius and The Golden Fleece are excellent reads.
How do you know this? I have read the account a number of times, as I am sure most of us have, but I only recently started wondering about Noah's wife and his daughters-in-law, none of whom are given names. Perhaps the writer did not want to draw attention to their families who the story destroys. Were their children and babies evil as well, or where they destroyed only as a means to punish their parents? It's a moral dilemma. No wonder the story avoids the whole issue.
J
Well, I believe demons take on different personas. So in the height of being worshiped as Zeus or moloch there were specific demons behind those names. Now because those gods are no longer really worshiped, I believe those demons are on different assignment.
Some Christians have said that Molech or the demon behind that name, who required child sacrifice, is now largely behind the movements for abortion.
the book of Daniel also talks about ruling spirits over nations...
Daniel 10:12 Then he said to me, “Do not fear, Daniel, for from the first day that you set your heart to understand, and to humble yourself before your God, your words were heard; and I [an angel] have come because of your words. 13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia [a ruling demon over that empire] withstood me twenty-one days; and behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left alone there with the kings of Persia (Brackets are mine).
i think those ruling spirits took on the functions of their gods, or acted in their name.
Some Christians have said that Molech or the demon behind that name, who required child sacrifice, is now largely behind the movements for abortion.
the book of Daniel also talks about ruling spirits over nations...
Daniel 10:12 Then he said to me, “Do not fear, Daniel, for from the first day that you set your heart to understand, and to humble yourself before your God, your words were heard; and I [an angel] have come because of your words. 13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia [a ruling demon over that empire] withstood me twenty-one days; and behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left alone there with the kings of Persia (Brackets are mine).
i think those ruling spirits took on the functions of their gods, or acted in their name.
Last edited by a moderator:
Wow, over a thousand replies to this. Well, I'm not going through them all.
So to answer your question. Yes, there are definitely real atheists who really do not believe God exists. You say they don't want to answer to authority, but this isn't always the case. Sure, some have emotionally-based reasons for denying God, but some really do see an intellectual conflict with belief in God and believe it is false.
Even Richard Dawkins in his debate with John Lennox titled, "Has Science Buried God?" admitted that it would be nice to believe in God and the afterlife.. but he reinforced the idea that just because something would be nice doesn't make it true. (He doesn't usually have this attitude or this much honesty... It was a rare moment.) But He's not alone. There are other atheists who have even lamented in their own way, their atheism. Bertrand Russell is one. Some really do believe it because they believe it is the truth, not because of personal preference or because they enjoy being their own god. I definitely don't believe they all cry out to God in their last moments.
I feel like the verse you quoted just shows there really are such people that believe God does not exist. The Bible labels them fools... and if God does exist (which I believe He does, obviously), then it is, quite accurately, describing such a belief - God does not exist - as being foolish.
So to answer your question. Yes, there are definitely real atheists who really do not believe God exists. You say they don't want to answer to authority, but this isn't always the case. Sure, some have emotionally-based reasons for denying God, but some really do see an intellectual conflict with belief in God and believe it is false.
Even Richard Dawkins in his debate with John Lennox titled, "Has Science Buried God?" admitted that it would be nice to believe in God and the afterlife.. but he reinforced the idea that just because something would be nice doesn't make it true. (He doesn't usually have this attitude or this much honesty... It was a rare moment.) But He's not alone. There are other atheists who have even lamented in their own way, their atheism. Bertrand Russell is one. Some really do believe it because they believe it is the truth, not because of personal preference or because they enjoy being their own god. I definitely don't believe they all cry out to God in their last moments.
I feel like the verse you quoted just shows there really are such people that believe God does not exist. The Bible labels them fools... and if God does exist (which I believe He does, obviously), then it is, quite accurately, describing such a belief - God does not exist - as being foolish.
Last edited:
Saying that they've had their assignments changed brings to mind, The Screwtape Letters by C.S. Lewis. However, Zeus is once again being worshipped by neo-pagans. I'd be curious to know the numbers.
Just as a matter of interest, in his novel, American Gods, Neil Gaiman states that the gods' powers increase as those who worship them increase in number. It's a book I highly recommend, and by the way it is fiction.
I hadn't heard this before, but it doesn't surprise me some think this way. It seems to me that the Old Testament condones abortion. Does this ring a bell with you?
Well, speaking of spirits, I think the Sandman has paid me a visit. Time to call it a night. Till next time.
Cheers
Just as a matter of interest, in his novel, American Gods, Neil Gaiman states that the gods' powers increase as those who worship them increase in number. It's a book I highly recommend, and by the way it is fiction.
I hadn't heard this before, but it doesn't surprise me some think this way. It seems to me that the Old Testament condones abortion. Does this ring a bell with you?
Well, speaking of spirits, I think the Sandman has paid me a visit. Time to call it a night. Till next time.
Cheers