Is there such a thing as an atheist?

[deepthought]

Epic of Gilgamesh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Deucalion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You know that myths and legends can be passed down and change and evolve as people tell the stories. Ever played chinese whispers as a child?

 

[Spokenpassage]

Epic of Gilgamesh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Deucalion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You know that myths and legends can be passed down and change and evolve as people tell the stories. Ever played chinese whispers as a child?

Lol you know that there is Jewish fables? From some of the ones I heard, I'm glad they weren't considered true.

Edit: I should have said, considered scripture.

 

[deepthought]

Lol you know that there is Jewish fables? From some of the ones I heard, I'm glad they weren't considered true.

thats true but doesn't really answer the question of my post...

 

[Spokenpassage]

thats true but doesn't really answer the question of my post...

I have played the telephone game, say one thing to someone else and it changes. I'm very sure myths could have changed over time deepthought no doubt in my mind.

 

[Jda016]

thats true but doesn't really answer the question of my post...

Ah yes, but are those fables and myths Inside a book that contains hundreds of verifiable fulfilled prophecy? Let us take just one to give some validity to the rest of the Bible.

Ezekiel 37:21-22
and say to them, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I will take the Israelites out of the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them back into their own land. I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. There will be one king over all of them and they will never again be two nations or be divided into two kingdoms.


fulfilled 1948


several prophecies are spoken of in just this one passage, which was written over 2500 years ago.


Israel was scattered throughout the entire world due to their rebellion against God and God even foretold of their dispersion. This happened largely in 70AD when Rome destroyed Israel.


The Jews wander the world for 1900 years, which is pretty remarkable since there are no Assyrians, Babylonians, Edomites, Amalekites, and dozens of other nations/people groups that had their homes destroyed and were dispersed throughout the land, that still exist today (nor did these groups have writings prophesying their return to their land). Every people group was pretty much assimilated into others. The Jews are very unique in this perspective.


Then in 1948 they are made one nation again instead of being separated into Israel and Judah. They maintain the same name of Israel and get to be a nation again in the exact same spot as before and ruled over by one king (prime minister).


Such accuracy is quite remarkable to me and I would think even the staunchest atheist would have to concede this to be a pretty big 'coincidence.'


And that is just one of hundreds of verifiable prophecy.


When I see things like this, it makes me believe that Noah was as old as the Bible says he was.

If the Bible can record the future, then it would be super easy to record the past.

 

[deepthought]

Ah cool. So it is indeed possible that the stories of gilgamesh, recorded around 2150BC, which account a warning from the gods, a great flood, an ark of exact dimensions, a gathering on animals, a sending out of birds and a sacrifice could all indeed be the origin stories of Noah which came to be changed up until biblical time as people re-told the story an made it there own?

 

[Jda016]

Ah cool. So it is indeed possible that the stories of gilgamesh, recorded around 2150BC, which account a warning from the gods, a great flood, an ark of exact dimensions, a gathering on animals, a sending out of birds and a sacrifice could all indeed be the origin stories of Noah which came to be changed up until biblical time as people re-told the story an made it there own?

We posted at the same time =). See my above post in answer to that question.

 

[deepthought]

the book you quote was, by it's own account, written around 515BC. Long after the story of gilgamesh.

For much of the 20th century most scholars agreed that the five books of the Pentateuch—Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy—came from four sources, the Yahwist, the Elohist, the Deuteronomist and the Priestly source, each telling the same basic story, and joined together by various editors.

These source texts are believed to have been written around 5th - 6th Century BC. That is still 400 to 500 years after the writings of the above story. So which whisper would you more likly to believe, the first, or the last?

 

[Spokenpassage]

Ah cool. So it is indeed possible that the stories of gilgamesh, recorded around 2150BC, which account a warning from the gods, a great flood, an ark of exact dimensions, a gathering on animals, a sending out of birds and a sacrifice could all indeed be the origin stories of Noah which came to be changed up until biblical time as people re-told the story an made it there own?

Ah but remember they were written. Although we don't teach the Oral teachings of Moses, some say those are possibly valid (i wouldn't risk it). First five written by Moses, up until Deuteronomy which may have been written by Joshua. I do believe Moses, while with God for Ithink 40 days was revealed the story of genesis. The books of the old testament were most likely written by prophets, rather than passed through oral traditions. The oral Torah, again, I am not too familiar with to be honest. Prophets like Jeremiah and Isaiah wrote their prophecies down. On top of that, they were historical events that were prophesied and fulfilled.

Plus dates...ooo that's a very deep topic...is our time measured right?

 

[deepthought]

I should add there is thought one of the books could have originated in the court of soloman, though evidence is sketchy. That would still put it between 970 and 930BC. Still a later whisper

 

[Jda016]

the book you quote was, by it's own account, written around 515BC. Long after the story of gilgamesh.

For much of the 20th century most scholars agreed that the five books of the Pentateuch—Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy—came from four sources, the Yahwist, the Elohist, the Deuteronomist and the Priestly source, each telling the same basic story, and joined together by various editors.

These source texts are believed to have been written around 5th - 6th Century BC. That is still 400 to 500 years after the writings of the above story. So which whisper would you more likly to believe, the first, or the last?

the one with hundreds of verifiable fulfilled Biblical prophecy.

 

[Spokenpassage]

the book you quote was, by it's own account, written around 515BC. Long after the story of gilgamesh.

For much of the 20th century most scholars agreed that the five books of the Pentateuch—Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy—came from four sources, the Yahwist, the Elohist, the Deuteronomist and the Priestly source, each telling the same basic story, and joined together by various editors.

These source texts are believed to have been written around 5th - 6th Century BC. That is still 400 to 500 years after the writings of the above story. So which whisper would you more likly to believe, the first, or the last?

Whoa, that's a huge stretch, 5th century B.C.? Those who believe that must be hard core skeptics...

 

[deepthought]

Ah but remember they were written. Although we don't teach the Oral teachings of Moses, some say those are possibly valid (i wouldn't risk it). First five written by Moses, up until Deuteronomy which may have been written by Joshua. I do believe Moses, while with God for Ithink 40 days was revealed the story of genesis. The books of the old testament were most likely written by prophets, rather than passed through oral traditions. The oral Torah, again, I am not too familiar with to be honest. Prophets like Jeremiah and Isaiah wrote their prophecies down. On top of that, they were historical events that were prophesied and fulfilled.

But we are discussing one story, the flood and Noah.

Plus dates...ooo that's a very deep topic...is our time measured right?

Ah! I wondered when that would crop it's head. Yes indeed. You can question the perception of time, just as you can question the perception of history. Anything apart from immediate history is grossly colored by perception. As simple beings, we can only percieve a single viewpoint of events. So we need collaborative statements to imply how genuine an event is. Have you ever done Jury Duty? Heard 10 people all give slightly different accounts of the same even, even though they all witnessed the same event occur. History, by it's nature, is written by the victors, and various stories and facts that have been discovered or assumed have later been found to be contradicted by other evidence. Then the scales of truth and doubt must be used. the Mesopotamian Tablets have been linked by other historical evidence to be of a certain period. Due to people referenced and the more disputed scientific and chemical methods of dating.

You state about Oral teachings, but surely that is the very epitome of the telephone game/chinese whispers. The human animal on average is not an accurate archive for information. I see it all the time when students confuse a fact or story from my lectures with one from another lecture. Though they do make an interesting Chimera when brought together

So my point is, you can of course call doubt upon the accuracy of dating, but in doing that, you must also call doubt of the spoken or written account of events for they a less linear substance. Otherwise you risk implying a bias which would leave the tail wagging the dog.

Great debate by the way

 

[deepthought]

Whoa, that's a huge stretch, 5th century B.C.? Those who believe that must be hard core skeptics...

But why is it a stretch? These are biblical scholars, christians who have dedicated their accademic lives to discovering the origins of the texts, the leading authority on the literal history of the bible. Men of clergy, cloth and faith. Why should there discoveries and analysis hold less merit than a preacher who merely reads the words?

 

[Spokenpassage]

the one with hundreds of verifiable fulfilled Biblical prophecy.

Ah! I wondered when that would crop it's head. Yes indeed. You can question the perception of time, just as you can question the perception of history. Anything apart from immediate history is grossly colored by perception. As simple beings, we can only percieve a single viewpoint of events. So we need collaborative statements to imply how genuine an event is. Have you ever done Jury Duty? Heard 10 people all give slightly different accounts of the same even, even though they all witnessed the same event occur. History, by it's nature, is written by the victors, and various stories and facts that have been discovered or assumed have later been found to be contradicted by other evidence. Then the scales of truth and doubt must be used. the Mesopotamian Tablets have been linked by other historical evidence to be of a certain period. Due to people referenced and the more disputed scientific and chemical methods of dating.

You state about Oral teachings, but surely that is the very epitome of the telephone game/chinese whispers. The human animal on average is not an accurate archive for information. I see it all the time when students confuse a fact or story from my lectures with one from another lecture. Though they do make an interesting Chimera when brought together

So my point is, you can of course call doubt upon the accuracy of dating, but in doing that, you must also call doubt of the spoken or written account of events for they a less linear substance. Otherwise you risk implying a bias which would leave the tail wagging the dog.

Great debate by the way

Nicely written in red

I'm not too sure of how much of the Levitical law you have read, but having more than one witness was stressed in the Old Testament concerning a true fact. If a person was found to give false witness he was punished. It's all about consistency, which the bible definitely gives. Samerians (an example) died and gone, beliefs turn to myths over time. Jewish scriptures failed not to be consistent. There is so many difficult statements, even some confusing, that would make you think it's contradicting itself. The writers kept it consistent with what they were given. It's not uncommon for the truth to be distorted, you've proven that quite a few times already; must mean there is one original right? How can their be numerous variations of the same story, when the story itself died off over time? No, it's consistent in time in which we have it written down. Look at Islam, it's a completely twisted and added version of the bible, which one was written first? Time will tell. Mohammed was inspired by the faith of Christians and Jews who devoted their lives in martyrdom, then went nuts. They believe in Noah, Adam and eve, but is there a truth consistent? Yes the bible! God would not let wicked man lose the truth over time. It will live.

Also you must remember that we have our own dating method. The Hebrew calender works at best to get accurate dating, which many if not most Jews still use today. So I'm not entirely disagreeing with accuracy of time, but exactly who is actually right?

 

[Spokenpassage]

But why is it a stretch? These are biblical scholars, christians who have dedicated their accademic lives to discovering the origins of the texts, the leading authority on the literal history of the bible. Men of clergy, cloth and faith. Why should there discoveries and analysis hold less merit than a preacher who merely reads the words?

Do you believe Hinduism is older than Buddhism? Just curiosity.

 

[IntoTheVoid]

the entire Bible has many "logistical impossibilities," however Jesus replied, "What is impossible with man is possible with God" (Luke 18:27. He is speaking of the New birth here, but I believe it applies to all things).

You are right. By all human logic, a man living past 600 seems absurd. However, if one has faith in an all-powerful God who is actively involved in human life, then it is easy to accept.

And as God has created all things, He can override or change any governance of laws or science He chooses to.

See now, the conversation steers toward the undebatable. Can't explain something? Or something seems impossible? Oh, it was God.

When it becomes supernatural It's neither provable or unprovable, and it renders the discussion useless now because whenever something comes up that you can't explain or something that defies logic and common sense, then it's just attributed to god cos he can do what he likes.

It shuts down your ability to think and reason, because you don't have to think anymore when the answer to everything you can't explain is 'magic'.

And I don't use that word to insult or mock. Your using supernatural explanations to fill a knowledge gap. I'm not comfortable settling for that.

 

[Spokenpassage]

See now, the conversation steers toward the undebatable. Can't explain something? Or something seems impossible? Oh, it was God.

When it becomes supernatural It's neither provable or unprovable, and it renders the discussion useless now because whenever something comes up that you can't explain or something that defies logic and common sense, then it's just attributed to god cos he can do what he likes.

Actually it's more difficult to explain something to someone who first denies the basics. The universe, galaxies, solar systems, planet earth, nature, societies and natural functions. If you deny God from seeing, witnessing, accepting these things of course it's definitely going to be hard convincing you about spiritual things. Seeing the the world from the ground up can make one an atheist, but looking up to the sky down can change his mind. Obviously if it doesn't, then yes it's extremely hard to prove God's existence. Our proof isn't good enough...

 

[IntoTheVoid]

Supernatural answers are not acceptable in any other endeavour in life are they.

You don't see a policeman going to a crime scene and saying "hmm, no one saw the killer entering or exiting the building... Therefore it must be the invisible man, case closed!"

Or a wife catching a cheating husband and the husband saying 'oh it wasn't me you saw going to the hotel, it was a demon who made himself look like me... You can't prove that it wasn't!!!"


No! In every other endeavour of life you require evidence, facts and reasoning. Why is this different?

 

[Spokenpassage]

Supernatural answers are not acceptable in any other endeavour in life are they.

You don't see a policeman going to a crime scene and saying "hmm, no one saw the killer entering or exiting the building... Therefore it must be the invisible man, case closed!"

Or a wife catching a cheating husband and the husband saying 'oh it wasn't me you saw going to the hotel, it was a demon who made himself look like me... You can't prove that it wasn't!!!"


No! In every other endeavour of life you require evidence, facts and reasoning. Why is this different?

There is different levels of supernatural. One of them is existence, do you deny existence even tho your eyes clearly see evidence?

Bible says God created the heavens and earth out of nothing, and everything in them. That's supernatural. How can a mind come out of nothing by itself?

There is more proof in theism than atheism.

Prove to me that everything was not created by a creator of this existence? I have evidence that there is, do you have evidence there isn't?