The correct way to worship is with instruments that lift the soul to God
not guitar or drums
those are satanic
not guitar or drums
those are satanic
Churches of Christ with or without instruments, which is the right way to worship?
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First of all, worship (proskuneo) is not the issue. There is no command to worship (prostrate, bow down with one's head toward the ground) in our church meetings, to sing while prostrating, or to play instruments while prostrating. (I'm going with 'proskuneo' here, the main Greek word translated 'worship.')
You are asserting that 'worship' in the first century did not involve musical instruments. Psalms indicates that certain psalms were sung with musical accompaniment. Instruments in the synagogues were outlawed in the second century. You don't know if there were instruments in early churches or not.
You are also taking a principle from the tabernacle, from the sacrifical system-- that incense could not be burned with strange fire that God had not commanded them to use (when some laws were already given about keeping the altar fires going) and trying to apply that to the gatherings of the saints. The Bible doesn't say to praise the Lord with strange fire. It does say to praise Him with various instruments. We don't see anything about strange fire in heaven. We do see a passage about the sound of harps in heaven, and also a temple-like situation in heaven.
No one here disagrees with either of those verses.
No, the command in the verse has to do with the singing and making melody in the heart. Whether a guitar is used is not mentioned in the verse. There is no instruction about it one way or another.
And there is no reference to 'worship' (prostration) in the verses, either.
But don't you think it is a bigger deal if a church ignores 'commandments of the Lord' regarding allowing speaking in tongues, interpretation, prophecy, and sharing of revelations in church since these are explicitly commanded, than to allow something that is not explictly commanded? Why ignore or disobey commands but make a big deal out of silence?
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T-REX
Guest
First the greek word used in Ephesians 5:19;Collosians 3:16 the phrase ἔχειν ψαλμόν is used of one who has it in his heart to sing or recite a song. When paul Gave instruction it was on how to USE the gifts, not a direct command to have them. and in Corinthians 13 it clearly shows the gifts that are done away with. So i DO know that those who add too or take away from the Authority, The written scriptures, will be punished for it, just as the for-fathers and prophets before us who disobeyed or added to the Word.
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nelsonr
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Hi Friends
I have got new instrument for the music and this is the spiritual instrument made from animal. It's A shofar and now its available for the online shop as shofar for Sale.
A shofar is a religious instrument that has been used in Judaism to praise G-d since Biblical times. It is a natural instrument made from animal horn.
I have ordered it..
I have got new instrument for the music and this is the spiritual instrument made from animal. It's A shofar and now its available for the online shop as shofar for Sale.
A shofar is a religious instrument that has been used in Judaism to praise G-d since Biblical times. It is a natural instrument made from animal horn.
I have ordered it..
The materials an instrument are made of isn't the arguement here. You could blow through a seashell and make music. The argument would still be the same.
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Tintin
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Satan doesn't have the power to create. Therefore, the guitar and drums can't, in and of themselves, be intrinsically evil.
or tap your foot or clap your hands or whistle through your lips . . .
& if i wave my hand in the air, or tap them on the back of the pew in front of me, or tap them on the skin of a drum or a harp or a keyboard, the difference in the outcome of the movement of my fingers is only the amplitude & quality of the sound that's produced.
I do agree with you and don't let my comment lead you to think I don't. Fear, I think, causes us to, let's say, discourage speaking in tongues and its interpretation. There are many people who would use this to input their own thoughts into God's thoughts. We know of some examples which I will let the readers think of on their own. I only hope that if God were to cause someone to speak in tongues, with someone there to interpret, that we would hear him. The lack of hearing tongues leads us to think that it does not happen anymore.
Lev 10:12-20[SUP]12 [/SUP]Then Moses spoke to Aaron, and to his surviving sons, Eleazar and Ithamar, “Take the grain offering that is left over from the Lord’s offerings by fire and eat it unleavened beside the altar, for it is most holy. [SUP]13 [/SUP]You shall eat it, moreover, in a holy place, because it is your due and your sons’ due out of the Lord’s offerings by fire; for thus I have been commanded. [SUP]14 [/SUP]The breast of the wave offering, however, and the thigh of the offering you may eat in a clean place, you and your sons and your daughters with you; for they have been given as your due and your sons’ due out of the sacrifices of the peace offerings of the sons of Israel. [SUP]15 [/SUP]The thigh offered by lifting up and the breast offered by waving they shall bring along with the offerings by fire of the portions of fat, to present as a wave offering before the Lord; so it shall be a thing perpetually due you and your sons with you, just as the Lord has commanded.”
[SUP]16 [/SUP]But Moses searched carefully for the goat of the sin offering, and behold, it had been burned up! So he was angry with Aaron’s surviving sons Eleazar and Ithamar, saying, [SUP]17 [/SUP]“Why did you not eat the sin offering at the holy place? For it is most holy, and He gave it to you to bear away the guilt of the congregation, to make atonement for them before the Lord. [SUP]18 [/SUP]Behold, since its blood had not been brought inside, into the sanctuary, you should certainly have eaten it in the sanctuary, just as I commanded.” [SUP]19 [/SUP]But Aaron spoke to Moses, “Behold, this very day they presented their sin offering and their burnt offering before the Lord. When things like these happened to me, if I had eaten a sin offering today, would it have been good in the sight of the Lord?” [SUP]20 [/SUP]When Moses heard that, it seemed good in his sight.
Here we see that Eleazar and Ithamar violated the law and God did not even get involved. It has always been an issue of the heart. They did what they felt they should do since doing either thing was a violation. If the bible says to you not to use instruments in service then you should not use them. To me, you are adding words. I am a member at the Church of Christ and we do not use instruments, but I do not think it would be a sin if we did. However, I do think it would be wrong for me to cause division in my congregation by trying to get instruments introduced. And besides I am happy without them. I just don't think we should be bothering those that use instruments because, quite frankly, I don't think God is concerned about them.
We have an example with Nadab and Abihu where God killed them for doing something he "did not command them to do", they thought it would be okay to "do it their way" which is an example of "will worship" or as the NKJV puts it "self imposed religion" :
Colossians 2:23 (NKJV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP]These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.
The NT Church did not use them, you cannot produce a single verse that shows they used it, that any apostle indorsed or commanded it, we are commanded to "sing" anything outside of that is as you say "adding to the word" or "self-imposed religion"
It's a fact that we both can't be right, so what should we do to alleviate this issue. What happens to the one that's wrong? Why is it that these two verses, Colossians 3:16 and Ephesians 5:19 can be interpreted differently, why? If we are not sure about the two verses in question, who do we turn to for telling us what they mean? Do we look at all of the different concordances to determine which is correct? Who is it that we can trust to tell us what is the truth of these two verses, who? I came to my conclusion by studying everything on it I could and looking at the fact that the N.T. doesn't mention using instruments in worship and the fact my interpretation tells me that the two verses mean to sing only in worship and that the fact that after all this time that has gone by without instruments something tells me that this, using instruments isn't what we are to do. I hear preachers that believe it's ok to use instruments in worship because of cultural change, whatever that means, and others say they finally see in the O.T. scriptures, again after all this time that it actually says it's ok to use instruments in worship, folks if that don't seem odd as a three dollar bill then I just don't know. With all that said I'm going to go by what I know to be the truth, that's right, what I know, so everybody else has to do what they know to be right.
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T-REX
Guest
Revelation 22:18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
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T-REX
Guest
I agree except it is not interpreted differently the Greek spoke in propositions with aux propositions to describe the proposition. you can not translate word for word to English,it would be a big mess. you have to use the whole phrase not a single word. fact is the instrumental music the bible describes only occurred in the old testament, David incorporated it into the temple but it was not sanctioned by God. the two verses in question in fact do not refer to musical instruments at all. And Peter to addresses the interpretative issues. II Peter 1:17 For when he received honor and glory from God the Father, and the voice was borne to him by the Majestic Glory, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased,” 18we ourselves heard this very voice borne from heaven, for we were with him on the holy mountain. 19And we have the prophetic word more fully confirmed, to which you will do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts, 20knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone’s own interpretation. 21For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. Ephesians 5:19; Colossians 3:16; the phrase ἔχειν ψαλμόν is used of one who has it in his heart to sing or recite a song
you can't give a single example in the NT where the believers used church buildings, or hymnals, or sang anything other than the Psalms themselves. you can't give me any examples in the NT where the believers had a song leader or a choir. you can't point to a specific example in the scripture where the 1st century church did an awful lot of things that i'm sure your church takes for granted is a good work. there is no outline of sunday-school for children, or slide shows on some sunday night from a missionary, or revival meetings, or a host of things the church does.
you can't point to a single apostle ever giving a rigid outline of what is and what isn't acceptable worship at all. the epistles teach us to be orderly when we met together, to respect each other and not to act selfishly or with respect of persons - and give some general praise for good things that some of the churches were doing, and in other cases reproof and instruction for things some churches were doing wrong --
but where is the New Testament analogy of the Levitical law, Psalm book and instructions for sacrifice and oblation under the Old Law?
it's written in our hearts, is where it is.
That's nice, but neither word forbids musical instruments.
Sure, there are commands there. Paul even says he had given commandments of the Lord later in the chapter, so whether these things should be taken as commandments is not up for debate.
"Let all things be done unto edifying." is a command (regarding 'every one of you' and singing, teaching, tongues, revelation, intepretation, etc.) The passage commands "Let the prophets spea"k. "Covet to prophesy" is a command, and so is "forbid not to speak with tongues."
It hasn't happened yet. Btw, do you think that your speech, knowledge, and understanding is so great that Paul's speech, knowledge, and understanding is childish by comparison?
I Corinthians 1:7 lets us know the gifts Paul wrote about in this book will continue, "so that ye come behind in no spiritual gift, waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." And the book of Revelation speaks of two witnesses who would prophesy and do miracles after the 'Amen' is written in the book of Revelation.
Then you should be careful not to add the word 'only' in passages about singing.
Revelation 16:2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
MARK: kharag-ma kha^, atos, to, (kharassō) A.any mark engraved, imprinted, or branded, kh. ekhidnēs the serpent's mark, i. e. its bite, sting, ekhein to kh. tou thēriou” Apoc.16.2, cf. 13.16; to kh. tou thēriou the mark of the beast,
3. metaph., mark, stamp, character, “to tēs monados sēmantikon kh.”
Tekhn-ē , hē, (tektōn) A.art, skill, cunning of hand, esp 2. craft, cunning, in bad sense, he makes this his trade
The beast as “hē mousikē aei ti kainon thērion tiktei” Is A new Style of Music or Satyric Drama.
MARK: kharag-ma kha^, atos, to, (kharassō) A.any mark engraved, imprinted, or branded, kh. ekhidnēs the serpent's mark, i. e. its bite, sting, ekhein to kh. tou thēriou” Apoc.16.2, cf. 13.16; to kh. tou thēriou the mark of the beast,
3. metaph., mark, stamp, character, “to tēs monados sēmantikon kh.”
sēman-tikos , ē, on, ; “rhēma . . phōnē sunthetē s. meta khronou” Id.Po.1457a14
BEAST: Thērion , to (in form Dim. of thēr), A.wild animal, esp. of such as are hunted ; of the Satyrs, S.Ichn. l.c.; tauti podapa ta th.; Ar.Nu.184, cf. Av.93. II. Medic.,= thēriōma, Hp.Coac.459, Loc.Hom.29, cf. Gal. l.c. III. as a term of reproach, beast, creature, “ō deilotaton su thērion” Ar.Pl.439, cf. Eq.273; “kolaki, [LISPING VOICE OF THE SINGERS] deinō thēriō” Pl.Phdr.240b; “hē mousikēaeitikainonthēriontiktei” Anaxil.27, cf. Eup.132; ti de, ei autou tou thēriou ēkousatephōn-ē , hē, A.sound, tone, prop., the sound of the voice, whether of men or animals with lungs and throat battle-cry, 15.686; of the battle-cry of an army,
4. of sounds made by inanimate objects, mostly Poet., “kerkidos ph.” S.Fr.595; “suriggōn” E.Tr.127 (lyr.); “aulōn” Mnesim.4.56 (anap.); rare in early Prose, “organōn phōnai” BOASTING
khronos , ho, 3. in Rhythmic and Music, time, “diaireitai ho kh. hupo tōn rhuthmizomenōn”
Khronos is TIME and the grandfather of KAIROS of the Church Planting Plot
Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath,
because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. kairo
Revelation 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle,
that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place,
where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time,
from the face of the serpent.
Revelation 14:15 And another angel came out of the temple,
crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud,
Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap;
for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
4. of sounds made by inanimate objects, mostly Poet., “kerkidos ph.” S.Fr.595; “suriggōn” E.Tr.127 (lyr.); “aulōn” Mnesim.4.56 (anap.); rare in early Prose, “organōn phōnai” BOASTING
khronos , ho, 3. in Rhythmic and Music, time, “diaireitai ho kh. hupo tōn rhuthmizomenōn”
Khronos is TIME and the grandfather of KAIROS of the Church Planting Plot
Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath,
because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. kairo
com-mŏvĕo (conm- ), A. To remove from a place, to carry away, displace, to start, set in motion, move: if I put my instruments (artifices, tricks, etc.) in motion.
frantic, crazed, Ludo .Especially, to play on an instrument of music, to make or compose music or song: “ludere quae vellemcalamo permisit agresti,” Verg. E. 1, 10: “talia fumosi luduntur mense Decembri,” Ov. Tr. 2, 491: “quod tenerae cantent, lusittuamusa, puellae,” id. Am. 3, 1, 27: amorous play
G. To delude, deceive: “auditis, an me ludit amabilis Insania?”
THEY MUSICALLY MOCKED JESUS AND BEAT HIM WITH A FLUTE!
Gallus , i, m., = Gallos Strab., A. Galli , ōrum, m., the priests of Cybele, so called because of their raving, “resupinati cessantia tympana Galli,” Juv. 8, 176.—And satirically (on account of their emasculated condition)
AT MOUNT SINAI: Of or belonging to the priests of Isis, Gallic: “turma,” the troop of the priests of Isis, Ov. Am. 2, 13, 18.
The DOGS or CONCISION were emasculated priests of the Mother Goddess..
frantic, crazed, Ludo .Especially, to play on an instrument of music, to make or compose music or song: “ludere quae vellemcalamo permisit agresti,” Verg. E. 1, 10: “talia fumosi luduntur mense Decembri,” Ov. Tr. 2, 491: “quod tenerae cantent, lusittuamusa, puellae,” id. Am. 3, 1, 27: amorous play
G. To delude, deceive: “auditis, an me ludit amabilis Insania?”
THEY MUSICALLY MOCKED JESUS AND BEAT HIM WITH A FLUTE!
Gallus , i, m., = Gallos Strab., A. Galli , ōrum, m., the priests of Cybele, so called because of their raving, “resupinati cessantia tympana Galli,” Juv. 8, 176.—And satirically (on account of their emasculated condition)
AT MOUNT SINAI: Of or belonging to the priests of Isis, Gallic: “turma,” the troop of the priests of Isis, Ov. Am. 2, 13, 18.
The DOGS or CONCISION were emasculated priests of the Mother Goddess..
that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place,
where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time,
from the face of the serpent.
Revelation 14:15 And another angel came out of the temple,
crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud,
Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap;
for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
Tekhn-ē , hē, (tektōn) A.art, skill, cunning of hand, esp 2. craft, cunning, in bad sense, he makes this his trade
The beast as “hē mousikē aei ti kainon thērion tiktei” Is A new Style of Music or Satyric Drama.
THE IMAGE is "turning the Word of God into a song[
Imāgo , ĭnis, f. cf. imitor, I.an imitation, copy of a thing, Juv. 7, 29: “hoc tibi sub nostra breve carmenimagine vivat,” “epistulaatque imago me certum fecit,” i. e. the image on the seal, the signet,
I. Transf., a reverberation of sound, an echo(mostly poet.): “(mellaria facere oportet) potissimum ubi non resonent imagines, 2. With the idea predominating of mere imitation, in OPPOSITION to what is original or real, a mere form, image, semblance, appearance, shadow:
The command is to SPEAK that which is written for our learning
Logos or Lexis is OPPOSITE to an ODE and ODE is the opposite of LEXUS.
If they do not SPEAK that which is Written THERE IS NO LIGHT IN THEM. Isaiah 8
KSublett,
I don't know what you are thinking when you see those definitions. It reminds me of the patterns in the magazines in the movie 'A Beautiful Mind.'
Your conclusions are not rational.
There is no basis for this in what you posted.
I don't know what you are thinking when you see those definitions. It reminds me of the patterns in the magazines in the movie 'A Beautiful Mind.'
Your conclusions are not rational.
There is no basis for this in what you posted.
I am reading what any novice in Greek or Latin would have understood at the time. If you click on the Imāgo you can read what no scholar or preacher has ever read. IN Ezekiel 33 which Jesus refers to to identify Scribes and Pharisees as hypocrites naming preachers for pay, singers and instrument players. One commentator notes that their SIN was "turning the Word of God into a Song" when anyone who knows LOGOS knows that it is the OPPOSITE of rhetoric, singing, playing instruments or acting: Nothing to the cross I bring may burn most clergy.
The BEAST does not have four legs: They are women (mostly) suddenly outing a new style of music or Satyric Drama. I am amazed that people work a role for which Jesus gave no dole and deliberately sow discord who have no INTEREST in understanding the meaning of the WORDS used in the Biblical Text.
Music is derived from mystery and means and meant "to make the lambs dumb before the slaughter." The Jacob-cursed and God-abandoned performed EXORCISM because God did not command king, kingdom, priests, levites or any kind of music: blowing 120 rams horns tuned to one note by the high priest is NOT music. All religious performers were called Sophists, hypocrites and Parasites because the INCLUSIVE and EXCLUSIVE command from the wilderness onward was to PREACH the Word by READING the Word for comfort and doctrine. Even the Lord's Supper is to PREACH the Death of Jesus: once you confess that Jesus died to be the ONLY TEACHER it is much easier to sit down and shut up and listen to the WORD.
It's a shame but I believe that the "pastors" of Shepherd's Chapel are the only people on the face of the earth who understand that PREACING the Word is READING the Word because if preachers had anything to add then Jesus died in vain. I take GREAT COMFORT in listening to the Word READ chapter by chapter, verse by verse. When they pause for theology they sound like all of the other preachers.
The BEAST does not have four legs: They are women (mostly) suddenly outing a new style of music or Satyric Drama. I am amazed that people work a role for which Jesus gave no dole and deliberately sow discord who have no INTEREST in understanding the meaning of the WORDS used in the Biblical Text.
Music is derived from mystery and means and meant "to make the lambs dumb before the slaughter." The Jacob-cursed and God-abandoned performed EXORCISM because God did not command king, kingdom, priests, levites or any kind of music: blowing 120 rams horns tuned to one note by the high priest is NOT music. All religious performers were called Sophists, hypocrites and Parasites because the INCLUSIVE and EXCLUSIVE command from the wilderness onward was to PREACH the Word by READING the Word for comfort and doctrine. Even the Lord's Supper is to PREACH the Death of Jesus: once you confess that Jesus died to be the ONLY TEACHER it is much easier to sit down and shut up and listen to the WORD.
It's a shame but I believe that the "pastors" of Shepherd's Chapel are the only people on the face of the earth who understand that PREACING the Word is READING the Word because if preachers had anything to add then Jesus died in vain. I take GREAT COMFORT in listening to the Word READ chapter by chapter, verse by verse. When they pause for theology they sound like all of the other preachers.
Limpet, did you read my post on Romans 6 where I quoted what seems simple.
The work of Jesus Christ is the TUPOS or "a pattern intended to be imitated."
The FORM of that doctrine is ANTI-tupos.
ANTI means INSTEAD OF: We obey a FORM of the work of Jesus INSTEAD of dying on the cross for our own sins.
Only AFTER we have OBEYED in baptism which imitated the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus are we THEN free from sin.
Never is anyone said to be FREE FROM sin just because they believe in Jesus Christ. Faith or PISTIS includes to COMPLY with what we are commanded to do.
The work of Jesus Christ is the TUPOS or "a pattern intended to be imitated."
The FORM of that doctrine is ANTI-tupos.
ANTI means INSTEAD OF: We obey a FORM of the work of Jesus INSTEAD of dying on the cross for our own sins.
Only AFTER we have OBEYED in baptism which imitated the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus are we THEN free from sin.
Never is anyone said to be FREE FROM sin just because they believe in Jesus Christ. Faith or PISTIS includes to COMPLY with what we are commanded to do.
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