Salvation Not Possible Without Works

[eternally-gratefull]

You are not even witty.

If sin were on the outside of man then perhaps water could wash it away. Sin however is a heart matter and must be washed away by the Holy Spirit inside a man. John 20 Jesus breathed upon those in the upper room and said receive ye the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit enters a man's heart and never leaves. Water washes only the outside and soon dries in the sun and air in which we live.

Men cannot save other men. Only God can save men from their sins. No man, no church can do what only God can do yeah delights to do.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Amen, As Peter made so clear. It does not remove the "filth" from the "flesh"

When you get water baptized, Your fleshly sin still remains, Your still a dirty filthy sinner, just a wet one. (until as you said, the sun drys you off)

 

[Shava]

Amen, As Peter mwhichade so clear. It does not remove the "filth" from the "flesh"

When you get water baptized, Your fleshly sin still remains, Your still a dirty filthy sinner, just a wet one. (until as you said, the sun drys you off)

Baptism was never meant to remove filth from the flesh, as this is a spiritual cleansing. Men are not saving men, God is. When you're baptized you are imitating the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. When a person is baptized they are baptized in the name of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit, this my friend is the authority which validates the baptism. No one receives what the Apostles received as far as the gifts given to them by the Holy Spirit, it's given to them to help bring attention to the ministry of Jesus Christ, and after it accomplishes it's goal, then all of these gifts will cease to be, and that time has already come and gone when the last Apostle died. You cannot perform miracle, you cannot speak in tongues, meaning speaking in another persons language or dialect, so you see these have ended.

 

[Shava]

1 Corinthians 12:12-13 (HCSB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] For as the body is one and has many parts, and all the parts of that body, though many, are one body—so also is Christ.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.


It says "into one body" NOT into water.

It says "we were all", not most of us.

When was the thief on the Cross Baptized into water?

When was Abraham Baptized into water?

When was Moses Baptized into water?

When was Enoch, or Elijah, or David, or Ezekial, or Isaiah, or any other Old Testament saint baptized in water?



THEY WERE NOT!

HOWEVER, EVERY single true believer that has received their MESSIAH as LORD, were Aed byLL Baptized by the HOLY SPIRIT HIMSELF into that ONE SPIRITUAL BODY that we know as JESUS CHRIST.

The thief was saved by Jesus himself as he did with many others while he was on earth. They were still under the O.T. law which means those who obeyed God were saved by faith, you and I are under the Christian era which means we are saved when we repent and are baptized in the name of Jesus for the remissions of our sins.

 

[Jabberjaw]

You are not even witty.

If sin were on the outside of man then perhaps water could wash it away. Sin however is a heart matter and must be washed away by the Holy Spirit inside a man. John 20 Jesus breathed upon those in the upper room and said receive ye the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit enters a man's heart and never leaves. Water washes only the outside and soon dries in the sun and air in which we live.

The Apostles were the ONLY ones baptized with the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost, so too were the house of Cornelius, yet HS baptism did not save them, else Peter would not have told them "there is water" and to "be baptized".

Acts 10:47-48 (KJV) [SUP]47 [/SUP] Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? [SUP]48 [/SUP] And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

There is only 1 baptism that saves man, only 1 is commanded,

Ephesians 4:5 (KJV) One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

so which time did they sin? they didn't, the Lord baptized them with the Holy Spirit, this showed not only the Gentile, but Peter and the apostles he was not a respecter of person...

Acts 11:17 (KJV) Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

Notice Peter did not say the like gift he gave to "everybody", the HS baptism was for the Apostles and the House of Cornelius (only), it was the "water baptism that is for "everybody. It was when they were water baptized that their sins were remitted, just like Paul's were :

Acts 22:16 (NKJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.'

Men cannot save other men. Only God can save men from their sins. No man, no church can do what only God can do yeah delights to do.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

When men baptize other men, the men save nobody, when men baptize other men,

 Matthew 28:19 (NKJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

"in the name of" or by the "authority of", they obey the commandment of our Lord and the Lord saves them :

Acts 2:41 (KJV) Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
Acts 2:47 (KJV) Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

 

[Jabberjaw]

1. Your reading an english translation. Your reading how men interpreted it.
2. The greek does not support your theory, A 2nd person and 3rd person subject and verbs do not mix. They are separate from each other, and although may be related. They are not the same. It does not mix in english, nor the greek

If you do not wish to see this, I can not help you. nor can anyone else.

Again, show me how the Greek supports your theory.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Baptism was never meant to remove filth from the flesh, as this is a spiritual cleansing.

You almost have it.

yes it is a spiritual cleansing. BY A SPIRITUAL BAPTISM. This is what romsn 6, 1 cor 12 and colossions 2 are talking about (see also titus 3: 5 and john 3)

Men are not saving men, God is. When you're baptized you are imitating the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. When a person is baptized they are baptized in the name of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit, this my friend is the authority which validates the baptism. No one receives what the Apostles received as far as the gifts given to them by the Holy Spirit, it's given to them to help bring attention to the ministry of Jesus Christ, and after it accomplishes it's goal, then all of these gifts will cease to be, and that time has already come and gone when the last Apostle died. You cannot perform miracle, you cannot speak in tongues, meaning speaking in another persons language or dialect, so you see these have ended.

you again almost have it.

God saves me. He must save you FIRST or your still dirty, and your baptism in water will get you wet and be meaningless.

You have have SPITUAL CLEASNING (baptism) first.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The thief was saved by Jesus himself as he did with many others while he was on earth. They were still under the O.T. law which means those who obeyed God were saved by faith, you and I are under the Christian era which means we are saved when we repent and are baptized in the name of Jesus for the remissions of our sins.

This is so wrong.

You are saved no different than anyone else. God did not place a further burden or work on you than he did the OT.

Stop trying to save yourself. You can't! Only God can save you.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Again, show me how the Greek supports your theory.

Dude I am sick of repeating the same old stuff over and over, which you have not listened to. Did not listen to and will not listen to. If you want to see it again (if you really desire) then go back.

Your not fooling anyone.

 

[Jabberjaw]

This is so wrong.

You are saved no different than anyone else. God did not place a further burden or work on you than he did the OT.

Stop trying to save yourself. You can't! Only God can save you.

Can you say "Christian Dispensation" ?

When Jesus was alive, he could save anyone by his word alone, when he died he was bound to his own law :

Hebrews 9:16-17 (NKJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives.

Your thief theory is not a NT example, pick another example.

 

[Jabberjaw]

Dude I am sick of repeating the same old stuff over and over, which you have not listened to. Did not listen to and will not listen to. If you want to see it again (if you really desire) then go back.

Your not fooling anyone.

The problem is, you keep telling everyone the Greek supports what you cannot prove in the English, and you have yet to address either of these issues, you only say the same thing over and over with no biblical support...

Bump your needle dude, your record has a skip in it.

 

[Cassian]

Amen, As Peter made so clear. It does not remove the "filth" from the "flesh"

When you get water baptized, Your fleshly sin still remains, Your still a dirty filthy sinner, just a wet one. (until as you said, the sun drys you off)

So we have two kinds of sins. Fleshly sins and spiritual sins. Baptism washes the spiritual, but what removes the fleshly sin?

sounds like a psuedo-Gnosticism.
Can you support your statement with scripture?

 

[Cassian]

Oh my, you do not understand verse 5 at all, because you did not see it's essential link to verse 6. IT DOES NOT USE THE WORD BAPTIZED AT ALL IN THAT VERSE, IT SAYS "BORN". Here read it in it's context:

John 3:5-6 (NKJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Jesus answered,"Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

See it now? He is talking about the breaking of water at natural child birth, and being spiritually BORN AGAIN by the Holy Spirit HIMSELF, when HE brings our once Dead to the Will of GOD human spirit to become Eternally ALIVE to the Will of GOD.

To paraphrase it, He is saying: "Most assuredly I say to you, unless one is born physically AND spiritually, he cannot enter the kingdom of GOD."

Really? this is a typical statement by those who do not recognize baptism since the Reformation. The water in John 3:5 has NEVER meant the water of the womb. It would be rediculous of Jesus to think that Nicodemus did not realize that he was actually a living human being and that all human beings are born from a womb. Equally absurd to think that maybe some are not born of the womb, thus even if they were born of the Spirit, they still would not be "born again".

I could ask for citations of this absurd construction but I already know that you cannot find any prior to the Reformation.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Can you say "Christian Dispensation" ?

Yeah it is people like you who give dispensationalism a bad name.

Your saved the same way Noah was, Daniel was, Adam was.

By faith in Christ.

Why do yo uthink yo ucan be more better than them? News flash. Your not.

When Jesus was alive, he could save anyone by his word alone, when he died he was bound to his own law :

News flash, JESUS IS ALIVE.

He can STILL DO IT.

Your thief theory is not a NT example, pick another example.

It is not a theory.

You think jesus is dead. Thats all that needs to be said.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The problem is, you keep telling everyone the Greek supports what you cannot prove in the English,

Yet I did prove it in english, Not only with my example. But correcting an example which someone used to try to support your theory, And showed how it was in error.

and you have yet to address either of these issues, you only say the same thing over and over with no biblical support...

Bump your needle dude, your record has a skip in it.

lol..

Bump your pride dude, You can;t save yourself. God is the record, His word is the means.

Your still under law and do not even know it. It may have a different name, and different rules and regulations, but it is all the same. I need to save myself.

News flash. You can't do it.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So we have two kinds of sins. Fleshly sins and spiritual sins. Baptism washes the spiritual, but what removes the fleshly sin?

sounds like a psuedo-Gnosticism.
Can you support your statement with scripture?

Your looking it from mans perspective. From Gods perspective, there is no difference, For ALL have sinned and fall short.

The penalty of sin is death. there is no differing sins, The church separated these so they can excuse their own sin. Man wants to be able to sin these little things and think he is not so evil.. That is what gets him into trouble.

You break even the LEAST of the law, your guilty of the whole things, and cursed to death because of it.

 

[Jabberjaw]

Yeah it is people like you who give dispensationalism a bad name.

Your saved the same way Noah was, Daniel was, Adam was.

By faith in Christ.

Why do yo uthink yo ucan be more better than them? News flash. Your not.

by obedience to God, It was not when Noah was told to make a boat he was made righteous, it was "after he did what he was commanded to do", like so:

Now when Jesus said Hear, believe, repent, confess Christ, and be baptized, it is not when he said those things we are saved, it is "after we obey Him"

News flash, JESUS IS ALIVE.

He can STILL DO IT.

News Flash, he did die, and was resurrected, do you deny he died?

It was after he died his law came into force, the thief died when Jesus was still alive (before his death), he is not a new testament example, find another example.

It is not a theory.

You think jesus is dead. Thats all that needs to be said.

I think Jesus died for me, and was resurrected, making His new better covenant in force, you however have your own "self-imposed" religion.

 

[Cassian]

Mailmandan,

Faith that trusts in Christ as the only means of salvation should not be rejected (Ephesians 2:8,9). Faith only (as James describes it) which amounts to an empty profession of faith should be rejected (James 2:14-24). Do you understand the difference between Paul - saved through faith, not works, (faith in Christ alone for salvation, works follow as the fruit so faith is not alone in the sense that it is an empty profession of faith) and James - claims to have faith but has no works, empty profession of faith?

So you interpret James to mean saved by works which explains your doctrine of salvation by works. I already explained above what James meant by justified by works. It does not equate to saved by works, but the natural man can only grasp salvation by works.

Again, 1 Jn 1:7 by an obedient faith in walking in the light, that obedient work of sustained "walking" keeps all my sins cleansed away continually, ie, keeps me justified. Again, no verse says faith only does this.

Is that what Paul said in Romans 5:1? Therefore, having been justified by faith, (and works? NO) we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. What about Ephesians 2:8-10? - For by grace you have been saved through faith; (and works? NO) and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus (first, then) unto/for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. Once again, when Paul uses the term justified, he refers to the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the sinner as righteous. James, however is using the term to describe those who would show and prove the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do. It's obvious that you are trusting in works for salvation and not in Christ alone. Are you ready to repent and believe the gospel?

If you stick with your first statements in these paragraphs you would have the correct understanding of faith/works. But in every instance you create a contradiction with your last statments.

If you ask the reverse, can you be saved without works? How would you answer?

 

[notuptome]

The Apostles were the ONLY ones baptized with the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost, so too were the house of Cornelius, yet HS baptism did not save them, else Peter would not have told them "there is water" and to "be baptized".

Acts 10:47-48 (KJV) [SUP]47 [/SUP] Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? [SUP]48 [/SUP] And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

There is only 1 baptism that saves man, only 1 is commanded,

Ephesians 4:5 (KJV) One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

so which time did they sin? they didn't, the Lord baptized them with the Holy Spirit, this showed not only the Gentile, but Peter and the apostles he was not a respecter of person...

Acts 11:17 (KJV) Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

Notice Peter did not say the like gift he gave to "everybody", the HS baptism was for the Apostles and the House of Cornelius (only), it was the "water baptism that is for "everybody. It was when they were water baptized that their sins were remitted, just like Paul's were :

Acts 22:16 (NKJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.'



When men baptize other men, the men save nobody, when men baptize other men,

 Matthew 28:19 (NKJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

"in the name of" or by the "authority of", they obey the commandment of our Lord and the Lord saves them :

Acts 2:41 (KJV) Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
Acts 2:47 (KJV) Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

The apostles were not baptized with the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. They were filled with the Holy Spirit. Filled with the power of God to declare the word of God before the men present and to do so with the authority God gave them through the Holy Spirit. Again the original language betrays your false assumptions. Jesus baptized the disciples in the upper room when He breathed upon them John ch 20 if you want to see it for yourself.

What shall we say of one who claims to teach but does not comprehend the subject matter? Oh yeah if the blind lead the blind they shall both fall into the ditch.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[eternally-gratefull]

by obedience to God, It was not when Noah was told to make a boat he was made righteous, it was "after he did what he was commanded to do", like so:

Now when Jesus said Hear, believe, repent, confess Christ, and be baptized, it is not when he said those things we are saved, it is "after we obey Him"

No. Like abraham, he was acounted as righteous because of his faith, his work was a result of that faith. He was saved byu his faith.


as for the rest, your a broken record. it is skipping, yet has the same result. self puffing up, self righteousness, and lack of humility. your want to take credit and have God bow to you, instead of you showing humility and bowing to God.

News Flash, he did die, and was resurrected, do you deny he died?

news flash, is he dead today? No. This he can do today what he did back then.

It was after he died his law came into force, the thief died when Jesus was still alive (before his death), he is not a new testament example, find another example.

no it was after he ressurected that the law was killed. and the condemnation that went with it.

Thats how he saved us.

but keep trying to save yourself.

I think Jesus died for me, and was resurrected, making His new better covenant in force, you however have your own "self-imposed" religion.

No you do not think he did this, your lieing to yourself. You think his death has no power in your life, because you think you STLL have to obey a set of rules to save yourself.

there is no power of the cross in you. it is dead to you.

 

[Jabberjaw]

Yet I did prove it in english, Not only with my example. But correcting an example which someone used to try to support your theory, And showed how it was in error.

You said the Greek does not support what Shava said, I said you have yet to show how the Greek differs from the English, I would like to see your example of this, but you seem to have dug your self into a hole here.

lol..

Bump your pride dude, You can;t save yourself. God is the record, His word is the means.

Your still under law and do not even know it. It may have a different name, and different rules and regulations, but it is all the same. I need to save myself.

News flash. You can't do it.

Yes, your still under law and don't even know it, to blind to see, you are under the "Law of Christ"

Galatians 6:2 (NKJV)
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.

James 1:25 (NKJV)
[SUP]25 [/SUP]But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does.

James 2:12 (NKJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP]So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty.

God will not obey the Law of Christ for you.