Is there such a thing as an atheist?

[homwardbound]

Well, perhaps not, but I am sure it certainly helps. I've never heard of a single instance of an atheist seeing God. However, I know of the opposite sometimes happening. The best recorded instance of this is probably Mother Teresa. Toward the end of her career she lost all sense of the presence of God in her life and began questioning his existence.

For instance, my point would be that if you look to the very existence of life as evidence of God, it helps if you already believe in God. Atheists won't see life as evidence for God.

If or since there is nothing after death, let's party and not care for our neighbor, lets just take whatever we want and Baby I want you, is that right, since no matter what we all are here? wny step on, steal, kill and destroy others for your gain?
Or does it make since to treat each other with mutual love, not condemning each other and actually care as Noah did and God called him righteous for that; and was angry over all the rest that all they did was think as how to get ahead for them and just those they liked, and who cares for the rest and just destroy the rest, for their own gain and whoever was with them
Why can't one see the love of God a Merciful God, even Jonah had trouble seeing the amazing Mercy of God to the Ninevites, and was sorely angry at god for being Merciful, and yet God stayed Merciful even to Jonah first through the Goard that gave him Shade, then the worm that ate the goard all from God to refine Jonah to see Mercy over sacrifice and rejoice in God giving us favor, when we turn to this type of Mercy to others we show we beleive

 

[homwardbound]

This reminds me of our earlier discussion about God being like a good shepherd who cares more for the lost sheep than for the one who has not gone astray. Then someone always comes along and says God cares more for those who accept him on faith than on those who think he doesn't exist. It seems to me Christians really shouldn't try to have it both ways.

Cycel, God's love is as I am seeing it, a refining love. If you ever committed, told God you believe, then Brother you are being chased by God's unfathomable love to the physical flesh, and God is in the business of removing in us our dross, anger, resentment, unloving attitudes,
One thing that never fails is: the love that is, shown through Christ the Son, in going to his death for you personally and all the world
And then rose to new life in truth for us to be alive in our thought patterns we are designed with to love all, regardless anmd stand for truth, Justice and God's love, that is shed abroad though out this world, by son
God just love you period, me seeing that is what changed me to just love you, you and you over there
Thank you for all your honesty to what you think to be truth and accepting me for what I think
Love you deeper than the Mississippi

 

[homwardbound]

Yes, but they certainly have idols in their hearts i.e. money, sex, cars, life, themselves, their careers. Something that no man is immune to do be doing in their heart.

Hate to say this: then what makes a believer different than a non-believer?

Oh I know we do what this verse says to do, by the love of God a response to his amazing Lover to all
Luke 6:32 “Do you think you deserve credit for merely loving those who love you? Even the godless do that!

 

[homwardbound]

I have not heard that about Mother Teresa, but then again the Catholics like to try to hide stuff and make people out to be more divine than others. However for those that believe we are just brothers and sisters in Christ. Nobody is to be above another. Which is one of the reasons I left the Catholic church.

She had written a letter about her hidden feelings, as to how she did all she did and just felt as if she was not next to God, and she tried very hard in all her works, she saw they accounted for nothing as in 1 Cor 13:1-3, when she needed the imputed righteousness love of God as in 1 Cor.13:4-13
Believing is much deeper than just saying one believes, much deeper
And God went to the death for us to bring us home to love that is just not real to our flesh, includes Jonah who was mad over God granting them Mercy
Do we hate this type of love from anyone, that grants Mercy when we know what those that got this Mercy granted deserved to be punished?

 

[homwardbound]

If I witnessed a disembodied hand writing on the wall, as in Daniel, I might come to believe. You see, Homeward, that would be an example of a true miracle.

I know Brother I know, please do not hide and watch, God is real and does just love you deeper than anything you have experienced here on earth
I personally have a Brother that is gone from here at age 33. a long story short was found on Campus Crusade for Christ two miles above the sanctuary there sitting upright against a boulder past away

I was 21 at that time and had to go there to get his belongings and was to see the Autopsy people, who told me that they wanted to do more Autopsies on and for a cause , physical one as to why he is dead
They said there was no cause they could find, nothing physical and so they put on death certificate, cause unknown, with an explanation for them saying was dead too long fore them to find a reason, that all they found was he died on Thursday and Found on Sunday

If want to find this in internet archives =, not sure if can, but his name John Henry Schultz the third
Anyway, this convinced me Christ is real, even though I do not physically see him, only by when I see his type of love in others do I

 

[homwardbound]

That is all I expect as well.

Believe, God knows when we do or not, and we thus receive, and then we see beyond and words just can' truthfully explain it, yet it all boils down to what true love is and is what we receive best shown in 1 Cor. 13:4-13, this type of love is waht God desires to give you, me and all who will beleive, see

 

[homwardbound]

Generally I tend to agree with other atheists about evolution. However, when we do disagree with one another we never hold dogmatically to any view, but are always willing to concede the point if we are proven wrong. The difference with Christians, I find, is that when there is a disagreement among you it tends to be on some point that neither side wants to relinquish.

And personally to you I, and Father are sorry to you for that type of behavior as even his first chosen di this very same and many still do to this day and Father's purpose in sending his Son was and is to change that. To where we start to love all as I posted before as we do not, and I think need to,
What do you think?
Luke 6:32 “Do you think you deserve credit for merely loving those who love you? Even the godless do that!

 

[homwardbound]

If you were really an atheist who understood atheism which means understanding evolution you would understand what has been asked. The fact that you don't suggests your knowledge of atheism and evolution is found wanting and you are nothing more than a cultural atheist. In other words it is convenient for you.

One thing I have noticed is that most atheists do not have an original thought. Most of the time they just parrot what they have been told and do not understand what they are talking about. How do I know this? Simple. The same ideas and phrases appear add infinitum. A bit like muslims who learn the Koran word for word but they have no idea what it means.

I am sorry, but Brother and those that claim belief do not do this as well? What a senseless fight, when it could just be over if we would just do as this below reveals
Luke 6:32 “Do you think you deserve credit for merely loving those who love you? Even the godless do that!
Luke 6:33 And if you do good only to those who do you good—is that so wonderful? Even sinners do that much
Luke 6:34 And if you lend money only to those who can repay you, what good is that? Even the most wicked will lend to their own kind for full return!
Luke 6:35 “Love your enemies! Do good to them! Lend to them! And don’t be concerned about the fact that they won’t repay. Then your reward from heaven will be very great, and you will truly be acting as sons of God: for he is kind to the unthankful and to those who are very wicked.

And am not saying to anyone that they are wicked, that is between that person and anyone they harmed and God the creator of us all
For me since I am forgiven, I plainly have forgiven back, Mercy I have recieved so Mercy I give

 

[homwardbound]

Little do you know.....

Jealousy is a very good thing to have. I am very jealous of my family and would protect them at the drop of a hat.

Originally Posted by Cycel

The deity of the Old Testament strikes many of us as being far from perfect. For starters he declares himself a jealous god, and we all know that nothing good comes of jealousy.

There is a Spiritual Jealousy and a fleshly Jealousy, God is Spirit and not of the flesh, even though he came in the flesh many years ago to redeem us in the Spirit, give us life to see Spiritually, not fleshly any longer that is selfish, to want to survive even at the cost of killing others, rather than come to agreement and just love one another without harm
Praising God for that day a coming, when all will be sorted out, and the sheep separated from the goats, the Chaff from the wheat
So to me if you are not harming your neighbor against their free will, forcing them or coercing them to be one with you and just love them, Then you are fulfilling the Law of love to all, and have nothing to worry about, yet if you are not loving as God has called forth to love all, the there is much to worry about.
And this is on when one rapes, steals, kills and or destroys another against their free will that they have been given too

 

[homwardbound]

I am going to come at this question from a different direction this time. I do understand the point: If Adam and Eve are a myth, and the Fall is a myth, then there is no need for Christ's salvation – no need for Christianity; therefore the myth is essential. I do understand, but that doesn't change the mythical appearance of the story. I think you may be in a bit of a quandary.

Well if one does not believe, then one does not and you are right then you do not see yourself as born in the similitude of Adam and Eve, with trying to be God and cause whetever you want for self to be at the expense of others.
A selfish world we live in right? so there had to be someone or something that caused this to be right? This world in a fallen state of harming one another, correct?

 

[homwardbound]

At the same time you wouldn't have any trouble, if pressed, to relate how jealousy can go terribly wrong.

Im and of our selfish selves to live you are right? Yet in from God the creators view you are wrong, I personally stand firm in trusting Fathger to always come through for me, continuously refining me in his/her type of love, having no respect of persons, for all are the same in Father's view and does just love us all, so we when see this can't help but to do the same, at least as I see it today

 

[homwardbound]

I thought holding the wrong Christian view also got a person sent to Hell. So for example the Jehovah's Witnesses accept Jesus as the son of God and teach the importance of salvation, but they reject the view that he is God.

Romans 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
Romans 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
Galatians 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.\

1 John 2:9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
1 John 2:11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes
1 John 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
1 John 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

Again Brother I just love you, as I see God does the very same

 

[homwardbound]

I thought holding the wrong Christian view also got a person sent to Hell. So for example the Jehovah's Witnesses accept Jesus as the son of God and teach the importance of salvation, but they reject the view that he is God.

Love is the only thing that goes on forever, God's type as shown in 1 Coir 13:4-13, that is it in a nutshell, while man has again distorted this truth and caused many divisions over Christ going to his death for you, me and all the world
It is what it is and there is no changing what he did and why he did it to the death, when he never had to. That is Mercy to us all, and plain and simply what I see

 

[phil112]

Love is the only thing that goes on forever..............

Bible doesn't say that.

 

[phil112]

Physicists have searched for a theory of quantum gravity for 80 years. Though gravitons are individually too weak to detect, most physicists believe the particles roam the quantum realm in droves, and that their behavior somehow collectively gives rise to the macroscopic force of gravity, just as light is a macroscopic effect of particles called photons. But every proposed theory of how gravity particles might behave faces the same problem: upon close inspection, it doesn’t make mathematical sense.
............Using newfound tools and shortcuts, Bern and his team are now calculating these gravitational interactions with ever-increasing precision. Instead of blowing up, the theory keeps making sense.

Quantum Supergravity Could Explain Weirdness of Black Holes | Science | WIRED

 

[JesusLives]

This reminds me of our earlier discussion about God being like a good shepherd who cares more for the lost sheep than for the one who has not gone astray. Then someone always comes along and says God cares more for those who accept him on faith than on those who think he doesn't exist. It seems to me Christians really shouldn't try to have it both ways.

Cycel

God does not have favorites in that when He sent His Son, Jesus - Jesus died for all - when the shepherd leaves the 99 those are safe in a penned area and he does not have to worry about them for the time he is out searching for the one that is lost and in the same manner the 99 righteous are safe in the arms of Jesus and rest in Him while the Lord is seeking that one lost soul. So this seems to me that the Lord is always taking care of those who love Him and He is always searching for those that need Him and will be found by them when they seek Him will All of their heart.

I consider you as a friend and my heart is soft toward you as a human brother who is in need of a Savior. The truth is that we are all lost in this world because the wages of sin is death. God provided a way out of our lost situation the only difference I see between us is that I have seen my need for a Savior and at this moment you have not. I pray that you will also realize that need. I was reading 1Corithians 15 today and I am going to post it here on the thread I hope that you and others will take the time to read it through. It will be long but it addresses some of your beliefs and a question you posed to me about if I believed I would have a body or be a spirit in heaven. Wishing you God's blessings for this day and always.

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

One can be an atheist without ascribing to humanism/secular humanism. A large number of state atheists responsible for the sweeping democide and severe persecution of religious persons in the 20th century certainly did not ascribe to humanism.

"Humanism is compatible with atheism and agnosticism, but being atheist or agnostic does not, itself, make one a Humanist. Nevertheless, humanism is diametrically opposed to state atheism." -Wiki (Winston, Robert 2004. Human. New York: DK Publishing, Inc. p. 299. ISBN 0-7566-1901-7).

Though atheism is not a full belief system in the sense it requires adherence to a lifestyle or elaborate philosophical worldview, atheism IS a metaphysical worldview that posits a metaphysical assertion of belief (which carries subsequent consequences when acted upon as if it is true by persons and societies) concerned with explaining the fundamental nature of being and the world that encompasses it.

Atheism is NOT neutral. All metaphysical worldviews result in consequences when their core assertions are implemented in the world.

I lost belief in God maybe around age 12, at a time before I even knew their was a word for my condition. I didn't know any other atheists. In fact I actually believed, naively, that I might be the only person in the world who didn't believe. You see I was surrounded by believers. Atheism is not a system of belief Ihsomiet. It is simply the absence of belief in God. It needs no other qualifiers. If you want other descriptors than add to it a word like humanist, or perhaps secular humanist. Both these terms employ a whole range of ideas whereas atheist only carries with it only one.

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

Typo correction for post #1453. It was really late and I was tired. Change:

"Cicely Saunders abandoned atheism for Christianity and, as a result of her new worldview, saw a serious need for end of life care within medicine and pioneered hospice. Truly, a caring and fantastic lady who had some interesting stories to share about how atheists die on their way to heaven in contrast to genuine Christians who go to heaven."

to

Cicely Saunders abandoned atheism for Christianity and, as a result of her new worldview, saw a serious need for end of life care within medicine and pioneered hospice. Truly, a caring and fantastic lady who had some interesting stories to share about how atheists die on their way to HELL in contrast to genuine Christians who go to heaven.

 

[JesusLives]

Cycel, Percepi, IntoTheVoid, and all others - sorry can't remember you all but you are included.

Please take the time to read this passage from the bible I know it is long but it addresses several different areas that could be of benefit for you. I consider you all friends and I only want the best for you in this life and the life to come. Thanks for your consideration and friendship. Father In Heaven please open hearts and minds to Your word of truth and keep the enemy far from us I pray in Jesus Name Amen.

[h=3]1 Corinthians 15 [/h]Amplified Bible (AMP)

15 And now let me remind you [since it seems to have escaped you], brethren, of the Gospel (the glad tidings of salvation) which I proclaimed to you, which you welcomed and accepted and upon which your faith rests,
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And by which you are saved, if you hold fast and keep firmly what I preached to you, unless you believed at first without effect and all for nothing.

I know this is a stretch since most of you don't believe there is a God but please keep reading.

[SUP]3 [/SUP]For I passed on to you first of all what I also had received, that Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One) died for our sins in accordance with [what] the Scriptures [foretold],
[SUP]4 [/SUP]That He was buried, that He arose on the third day as the Scriptures foretold,
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And [also] that He appeared to Cephas (Peter), then to the Twelve.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Then later He showed Himself to more than five hundred brethren at one time, the majority of whom are still alive, but some have fallen asleep [in death].
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Afterward He was seen by James, then by all the apostles (the special messengers),
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And last of all He appeared to me also, as to one prematurely and born dead [[SUP][a][/SUP]no better than an unperfected fetus among living men].

This part was speaking of Jesus after His resurrection and to whom He appeared.

[SUP]9 [/SUP]For I am the least [worthy] of the apostles, who am not fit or deserving to be called an apostle, because I once wronged and pursued and molested the church of God [oppressing it with cruelty and violence].
[SUP]10 [/SUP]But by the grace (the unmerited favor and blessing) of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me was not [found to be] for nothing (fruitless and without effect). In fact, I worked harder than all of them [the apostles], though it was not really I, but the grace (the unmerited favor and blessing) of God which was with me.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]So, whether then it was I or they, this is what we preach and this is what you believed [what you adhered to, trusted in, and relied on].
[SUP]12 [/SUP]But now if Christ (the Messiah) is preached as raised from the dead, how is it that some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?
[SUP]13 [/SUP]But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ has not risen;
[SUP]14 [/SUP]And if Christ has not risen, then our preaching is in vain [it amounts to nothing] and your faith is devoid of truth and is fruitless (without effect, empty, imaginary, and unfounded).
[SUP]15 [/SUP]We are even discovered to be misrepresenting God, for we testified of Him that He raised Christ, Whom He did not raise in case it is true that the dead are not raised.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised;
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is mere delusion [futile, fruitless], and you are still in your sins [under the control and penalty of sin];
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And further, those who have died in [[SUP][b][/SUP]spiritual fellowship and union with] Christ have perished (are lost)!
[SUP]19 [/SUP]If we who are [abiding] in Christ have hope only in this life and that is all, then we are of all people most miserable and to be pitied.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]But the fact is that Christ (the Messiah) has been raised from the dead, and He became the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep [in death].

I assume that if you don't believe in God that you may not believe in a resurrection either? But the above verses are just a few of why I believe there is a resurrection an that Jesus died and has raised from the dead for our salvation.

[SUP]21 [/SUP]For since [it was] through a man that death [came into the world, it is] also through a Man that the resurrection of the dead [has come].
[SUP]22 [/SUP]For just as [because of their [SUP][c][/SUP]union of nature] in Adam all people die, so also [by virtue of their [SUP][d][/SUP]union of nature] shall all in Christ be made alive.

This is why I believe there will be resurrections.

[SUP]23 [/SUP]But each in his own rank and turn: Christ (the Messiah) [is] the firstfruits, then those who are Christ’s [own will be resurrected] at His coming.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]After that comes the end (the completion), when He delivers over the kingdom to God the Father after rendering inoperative and abolishing every [other] rule and every authority and power.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]For [Christ] must be King and reign until He has put all [His] enemies under His feet.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]The last enemy to be subdued and abolished is death.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]For He [the Father] has put all things in subjection under His [Christ’s] feet. But when it says, All things are put in subjection [under Him], it is evident that He [Himself] is excepted Who does the subjecting of all things to Him.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]However, when everything is subjected to Him, then the Son Himself will also subject Himself to [the Father] Who put all things under Him, so that God may be all in all [be everything to everyone, supreme, the indwelling and controlling factor of life].
[SUP]29 [/SUP]Otherwise, what do people mean by being [themselves] baptized in behalf of the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them?
[SUP]30 [/SUP][For that matter], why do I live [dangerously as I do, running such risks that I am] in peril every hour?
[SUP]31 [/SUP][I assure you] by the pride which I have in you in [your [SUP][e][/SUP]fellowship and union with] Christ Jesus our Lord, that I die daily [I face death every day and die to self].

Verse 32 may be part of your belief system?

[SUP]32 [/SUP]What do I gain if, merely from the human point of view, I fought with [wild] beasts at Ephesus? If the dead are not raised [at all], let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we will be dead.


[SUP]33 [/SUP]Do not be so deceived and misled! Evil companionships (communion, associations) corrupt and deprave good manners and morals and character.

Verse 34 is what everyone needs to do - for me it was to accept Jesus as my Savior. It also speaks of not having knowledge of God possibly no belief either?

[SUP]34 [/SUP]Awake [[SUP][f][/SUP]from your drunken stupor and return] to sober sense and your right minds, and sin no more. For some of you have not the knowledge of God [you are utterly and willfully and disgracefully ignorant, and continue to be so, lacking the sense of God’s presence and all true knowledge of Him]. I say this to your shame.

Verses below explain the body of heaven a question you had asked me Cycel.

[SUP]35 [/SUP]But someone will say, How can the dead be raised? With what [kind of] body will they come forth?
[SUP]36 [/SUP]You foolish man! Every time you plant seed, you sow something that does not come to life [germinating, springing up, and growing] unless it dies first.
[SUP]37 [/SUP]Nor is the seed you sow then the body which it is going to have [later], but it is a naked kernel, perhaps of wheat or some of the rest of the grains.
[SUP]38 [/SUP]But God gives to it the body that He plans and sees fit, and to each kind of seed a body of its own.
[SUP]39 [/SUP]For all flesh is not the same, but there is one kind for humans, another for beasts, another for birds, and another for fish.
[SUP]40 [/SUP]There are heavenly bodies (sun, moon, and stars) and there are earthly bodies (men, animals, and plants), but the beauty and glory of the heavenly bodies is of one kind, while the beauty and glory of earthly bodies is a different kind.
[SUP]41 [/SUP]The sun is glorious in one way, the moon is glorious in another way, and the stars are glorious in their own [distinctive] way; for one star differs from and surpasses another in its beauty and brilliance.
[SUP]42 [/SUP]So it is with the resurrection of the dead. [The body] that is sown is perishable and decays, but [the body] that is resurrected is imperishable (immune to decay, immortal).
[SUP]43 [/SUP]It is sown in dishonor and humiliation; it is raised in honor and glory. It is sown in infirmity and weakness; it is resurrected in strength and endued with power.
[SUP]44 [/SUP]It is sown a natural (physical) body; it is raised a supernatural (a spiritual) body. [As surely as] there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual body.
[SUP]45 [/SUP]Thus it is written, The first man Adam became a living being (an individual personality); the last Adam (Christ) became a life-giving Spirit [restoring the dead to life].
[SUP]46 [/SUP]But it is not the spiritual life which came first, but the physical and then the spiritual.
[SUP]47 [/SUP]The first man [was] from out of earth, made of dust (earthly-minded); the second Man [is] the Lord from out of heaven.
[SUP]48 [/SUP]Now those who are made of the dust are like him who was first made of the dust (earthly-minded); and as is [the Man] from heaven, so also [are those] who are of heaven (heavenly-minded).
[SUP]49 [/SUP]And just as we have borne the image [of the man] of dust, so shall we and so [SUP][g][/SUP]let us also bear the image [of the Man] of heaven.
[SUP]50 [/SUP]But I tell you this, brethren, flesh and blood cannot [become partakers of eternal salvation and] inherit or share in the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable (that which is decaying) inherit or share in the imperishable (the immortal).
[SUP]51 [/SUP]Take notice! I tell you a mystery (a secret truth, an event decreed by the hidden purpose or counsel of God). We shall not all fall asleep [in death], but we shall all be changed (transformed)
[SUP]52 [/SUP]In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the [sound of the] last trumpet call. For a trumpet will sound, and the dead [in Christ] will be raised imperishable (free and immune from decay), and we shall be changed (transformed).
[SUP]53 [/SUP]For this perishable [part of us] must put on the imperishable [nature], and this mortal [part of us, this nature that is capable of dying] must put on immortality (freedom from death).
[SUP]54 [/SUP]And when this perishable puts on the imperishable and this that was capable of dying puts on freedom from death, then shall be fulfilled the Scripture that says, Death is swallowed up (utterly vanquished [SUP][h][/SUP]forever) in and unto victory.

The following verses part of reason to believe in eternal life as death is done away with.

[SUP]55 [/SUP]O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?
[SUP]56 [/SUP]Now sin is the sting of death, and sin exercises its power [SUP][i][/SUP][upon the soul] through [SUP][j][/SUP][the abuse of] the Law.
[SUP]57 [/SUP]But thanks be to God, Who gives us the victory [making us conquerors] through our Lord Jesus Christ.
[SUP]58 [/SUP]Therefore, my beloved brethren, be firm (steadfast), immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord [always being superior, excelling, doing more than enough in the service of the Lord], knowing and being continually aware that your labor in the Lord is not futile [it is never wasted or to no purpose].

I believe I should love my fellow human brothers and not condemn anyone to hell. My aim and goal is to try to lovingly lead all to a knowledge of Jesus Christ and the salvation He offers to all. It is a choice it is not a fairy tale, but truth. Blessings to you all.

 

[JesusLives]

We'll have to talk some more on this, but briefly atheists generally hold that this account is a myth. Many Christians assert that it is allegory. I think you are claiming it is an historical retelling of actual events.

I would not discount all of scripture as myth. I do treat the Bible as a book, like any other written by men. I interpret everything between its covers in a secular manner. Some atheists think Jesus is a religious fiction, some think he was an historical figure. I hold to the latter view, but I cannot see him as the son of God as I do not believe in the existence of any deity. Jesus, I suspect, possibly thought of himself as a prophet sent by God, perhaps he even thought of himself as fulfilling prophecy, but that is about as far as I can go.

I am pretty certain that Jesus knew He was God's Son.

John 17:1 After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: "Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you."