Is there such a thing as an atheist?

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phil112

Guest
God exists and must have had a beginning.

No? This is where the progression of your own logic leads...............
As I believe in God, I must believe what He tells me.He is Alpha and Omega. Did God have a beginning? Our earthly logic would certainly lead us to think so. How is He the beginning and the end? How can He alone be self sufficient? I have no clue.

Cycel, I am confident being in mortal bodies on a mortal planet, the eternal things are beyond our understanding. I can't explain it, nor will I try, because I simply don't know. Too many will tell you what they think, without having anything of substance to base it on. I also believe that one day these things will be understandable.
 
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The growth of knowledge was once linear (red line) but it has become exponential (green curve).
Even the linear line in the graph shows an upward trend.

You do have a valid point though. When I wrote the words you are responding to it occurred to me that for most of human history, from man ape to stone age man, there would have been no upward trend in knowledge. Even through the bronze and iron ages most people would notice no steady improvement in technologies, as we see today. The constant increase in knowledge that we take for granted came about only recently in human history, and most of it is tied to the scientific method.
 
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Alternate translation: But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. (Daniel 12:4 KJV)
"But you, Daniel, keep the words secret and seal the book till the time of the end. Many will be at their wits' end, and punishment will be heavy." (NEB).

"But you, Daniel, must keep these words secret and the book sealed until the time of the End. Many will wander this way and that, and wickedness will go on increasing." (JB)

"... Many will go here and there to increase knowledge." (NIV)

It's interesting that there are so many differences in the various versions of Daniel 12:4. I don't think, however, that the King James version is tossing in a prophecy. In reading Daniel 12:1-4 it seems that Daniel has been instructed to keep the book, or scroll, sealed. What's contained in the book are the names of those who in the end days will either gain everlasting life or everlasting disgrace, contempt, or shame (depending on the translation). The knowledge sought is likely confirmation of whose names are in the book. Many Christian groups seem focussed determining if their own names are in the book. Perhaps you could elaborate. I don't know, but I wonder if the King James is not the best translation of this passage?
 

nl

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Jun 26, 2011
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I have an image in my mind of the abundance of life on the Serengeti, though apparently many of those populations are now in decline. In North America herds of buffalo stretched across the plains as far as the eye could see, and passenger pigeons existed in the billions. here is evidence the Valley of the Nile and the Fertile Crescent also once were home to that same abundance...
Abudance persists since creation. This planet continues to have the resources to support a human population of approximately 7 billion plus many domesticated and wild animals. It's remarkable and something for which the faith-full can give thanks.

Cycel said:
...In the last eighty years the bird population of North America has gone into a severe decline. What is present now is only a shadow of what once existed. You don't know what's disappeared because you never saw what once was there. It's not just about numbers of birds, it is more about the numerous species that have simply disappeared. Fisheries are also in severe decline in many areas. The loss of lobster habitat is also becoming widespread. Check out dead zones. Dead zone (ecology) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There are tales of the density of fish being so great off the Grand Banks that fishing vessels were slowed by the friction. When I was a kid in the 1950s we were shown films in school by the National Film Board of Canada of the abundant cod fisheries. Now the cod stocks are depleted.
Surely, depletion of resources and damage to wildlife and the environment have been realities. I sympathize with cause like recycling, trail management and wilderness protection. I favor sensible development and managed care of renewable natural resources but not waste.

I think that Almighty God also cares about needless destruction of the earth. When God's righteous judgment is no longer held back but begins to be displayed, then the Book says that God will "destroy those who destroyed the earth" (Revelation 11:18).

For a remarkable example of the abundant, large cod fish that once existed around the Grand Banks of Newfoundland, I saw that you (Cycel) recall films from school. I recall the classic 1937 film, Captains Courageous, with Spencer Tracey, Freddie Bartholomew, Mickey Rooney, Lionel Barrymore among the cast. There are memorable images of abundant fish in that film. Although I am not Canadian and have only made a few visits, I can imagine understandable Canadian nationalistic pride being associated with such wonderful fisheries.

Cycel said:
Nl, anyone in biblical antiquity, who was literate, could have written the words found in the Genesis creation account. There really is nothing there that requires inspiration by God. As I’ve said to others, the account – when examined closely – reveals an ancient cosmology that looks very much like the one described by the Babylonians. It looks nothing like the universe we all accept today. Below is a diagram of the world as described in Genesis 1.


Cycel, that's quite the graphic chart that you found and posted.

That's a rather firm looking firmament (with windows). It resembles a sky dome. I would hold that the Bible doesn't teach a sky dome.

If you could prove that the Bible really teaches a sky dome like what this chart conveys, then you would have proof against the doctrine of Biblical inerrancy.

Many people would celebrate if you could prove the Bible to be false and that there was no God who would ever bring them into judgment for their deeds. Of course, that means that justice would never prevail in many situations. Lord, have mercy.

The word firmament meant heaven. The Bible elsewhere uses phrases like "heaven" and "heaven of heavens" so multiple zones are implied. The English word "firmament" was derived from an alliterated Hebrew word "raqi" that meant a stretched out expanse.

Genesis 1 does teach waters above so we do have teaching about a formerly different structure to atmosphere and the water of the earth. The mechanism for waters above may have been a gaseous pressure barrier holding back gravitational forces but I don't know how it was done. Genesis 2:5-6 would teach that there was no rain and that the earth was well-watered by a mist such that there might have been no deserts. We do know from the geologic record of fossil fuels that wide areas of the earth once had prolific, tropical-like production of vast amounts of organic matter that became coal, petroleum and natural gas. That was a different earth then.

Genesis 1:1 tells us (like science) that the visible universe had a beginning. Genesis 1:27 tells us that God created man in his own image. That would be something to explore. Genesis 1 has much to teach. Sky dome cosmology might be explored further to confirm that it wasn't being taught but I wouldn't ignore the other content in Genesis 1.
 
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AgeofKnowledge

Guest
Yes well that's easily enough done. Simply spend a year in a genuine Christian healing room (not to be confused with counterfeits nor the devil's occult) as I did and observe supernatural healing miracles occur consistently and repeatedly.

Of course, not everyone will be healed for various divergent reasons. Healing: Dr. Walter Kaiser 1 - YouTube

But if you stay long enough in a genuine Christian healing room staffed by Christians with the gift of healing, you'll hear bones snap back into place, watch stunted legs grow to their proper length, and talk with people who's cancer tumors miraculously disappeared just as I did. In my own situation, I felt the supernatural power of God enter my chest and heal a serious medical problem completely and permanently.

Supernatural healing miracles can work within a standard definition of science "the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behavior of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment"; however, because of their supernatural nature and cause they operate differently than simply mixing two chemicals together in a test tube. They are observable and documentable but there are requirements for their manifestation and reasons why they don't always manifest that must be taken into account.

Nevertheless, as they certainly are occurring you can observe them occur and spend time with the people who are healed and examine their before and after medical records with them for those who are so inclined anyways if you are willing and able to invest the time and energy to do so.

Now I think you're talking about Isaiah 40:8 which states, "The grass withers, the flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever" right?

This speaks of the Bible's indefatigability which is to say that it cannot be worn out and is tireless and inexhaustible. This tireless power of Scripture comes from God whose inexhaustible power is manifest in his infallible Word. This is what Isaiah is communicating. As Peter explained, "For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable through the living and enduring word of God" (1 Peter 1 :23).

And when I said brush away, I meant what I stated which is that you brush away it's singular uniqueness and exclusivity and toss it in with every false religious system that ever existed and engage in blatant false assertions of syncretism and misinterpretation. This is truly ignorant, exactly as I stated it was. And it IS that exclusive singularly unique special revelation that accurately directs humanity to the hereafter.

Don't thank me. Thank God. :)


However you have missed the next stage, which is to take the theoretical model and test it with observations and open it to public and/pr professional scrutiny. Herein lies the major difference between science and theology. Science is subject to change and evolution. Whereas the words of the bible, as is written in Revelations, shall not be changed. This always strikes me as strange considering the number of different interpretations (translations) available today not to mention the occasional continuity errors which occur in the texts.
 
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Yes well that's easily enough done. Simply spend a year in a genuine Christian healing room (not to be confused with counterfeits nor the devil's occult) as I did and observe supernatural healing miracles occur consistently and repeatedly.

Of course, not everyone will be healed for various divergent reasons. Healing: Dr. Walter Kaiser 1 - YouTube

But if you stay long enough in a genuine Christian healing room staffed by Christians with the gift of healing, you'll hear bones snap back into place, watch stunted legs grow to their proper length, and talk with people who's cancer tumors miraculously disappeared just as I did. In my own situation, I felt the supernatural power of God enter my chest and heal a serious medical problem completely and permanently.
We don't have any double blind studies to confirm this.
 
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Kerry

Guest
Dude, atheist are the scum of the Earth. they come on here and try their best to devoid our faith, They speak evil and unintelligible, having not a inkling of knowledge though in their mind they think that they are the Einsteins of every and any thing.

But, Jesus loves them and so do I. I also pray for these consistent atheist that are constantly on this forum for some reason and I think it's a reason that they are not aware of. Maybe they have had some christian background and they were deterred somehow someway. Idk. I just know that there is a place in my heart for them. I have never met them nor known them sepping through this forum, but I love them. So be gentle as best you can ( sometimes I get tough and rough). Praise God almighty.
 
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AgeofKnowledge

Guest
The language speaks of the time of the end. The end is not the end of the persecution of the days of Antiochus but rather the end of this age. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

As Cockerham says:

"The Hebrew word for 'run' שׁוּט (shu^ṭ) literally means to 'push forth.' When it is used in Scripture it has a figurative meaning; that is, 'to lash at the ocean' or 'to lash at the sea with oars' implying travel. Our society has moved from riding horses for thousands of years to riding in automobiles and airplanes in the last one hundred years.

Daniel 12:4 tells us 'knowledge shall be increased.' The Hebrew word for 'increase' רבה (ra^ba^h) implies not only an addition of knowledge, but also a multiplication or a knowledge that is increasing exponentially. This is so much of an exact prophecy that knowledge is now presently doubling every twenty-two months. But when it comes to the knowledge of God we may very well be decreasing. Paul told Timothy that in the last days many would be 'ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth' (2 Tim. 3:7).



"But you, Daniel, keep the words secret and seal the book till the time of the end. Many will be at their wits' end, and punishment will be heavy" (Daniel 12:4).

I have two issues, i) where is it "clearly prophesied" in the passage you indicated that "knowledge will increase"?

ii) I would think that knowledge increasing over time should be the normal state of affairs. I don't see that this would be much of a prophecy.
 

homwardbound

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Oct 24, 2012
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All right, you have given your warning, but it falls on deaf ears. The way to reach the atheist is to convince him of the truth of your position. You can only do that if you overcome his objections. Can you do that?
What makes you think we need to? and you do not need to do this for me either. It is what it is. Christ did get crucified and that is in history as a fact, and more importantly he is risen and that is recorded as well in His Story
And all that is left is to either beleive or not. So be it, discussion over and we both have made our choices and so the cards will fall where they fall.
Love you regardless
 
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Kerry

Guest
Cycel, no one can convince you of anything, sepping the Holy Spirit and even at that you must be willing or having someone pray for you (like me). When you have dwelt in darkness, you lose your sight. That's why God would say, how shall they know with out a preacher. Faith comes by hearing and shall you hear without a preacher. Why do you think that God has brought here? do think that you are because you want to be? Love ya man.
 
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... but you and I know the atheists are too proud to admit that they don't know everything...
Really? I don’t know everything, in fact there is much I don’t know.

... they are as blind as bats and all the ranting and raving about their cosmology...
Whose ranting?

The cosmology I am talking about is Genesis 1. It is not my cosmology, but I have said repeatedly that it outlines a very different view of the world than the one science has revealed. You might asked me to explain myself.

... God does not need their help to prove anything.
Did I say he did? :) I think you may be rambling.
 
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Cycel said:
The way to reach the atheist is to convince him of the truth of your position. You can only do that if you overcome his objections. Can you do that?
What makes you think we need to?
You don't need to convince me, but we are both here on a religious forum. I came here to discus these issues with interested parties. Perhaps you are here for a different reason.

homwardbound said:
Christ did get crucified and that is in history as a fact, and more importantly he is risen and that is recorded as well in His Story
Yes, those claims are made in scripture, but I do read things differently.
 
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danalee

Guest
All right, you have given your warning, but it falls on deaf ears. The way to reach the atheist is to convince him of the truth of your position. You can only do that if you overcome his objections. Can you do that?
What are your objections?
 
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Cycel, that's quite the graphic chart that you found and posted.

That's a rather firm looking firmament (with windows). It resembles a sky dome. I would hold that the Bible doesn't teach a sky dome.

If you could prove that the Bible really teaches a sky dome like what this chart conveys, then you would have proof against the doctrine of Biblical inerrancy.
There are two passages that I know of, but like Daniel 12:4 both give different translations.

“Thick clouds are a covering to him that he seeth not, and he walketh in the circuit of heaven.” (Job 22:14 KJ)

“Thick clouds veil him so, he does not see us as he goes about in the vaulted heavens.” (Job 22:14 NIV)

“The clouds to him, are an impenetrable veil, and he prowls on the rim of the heavens.” (Job 22:14 JB)

“His eyes cannot pierce the curtain of the clouds as he walks to and fro on the vault of heaven.” (Job 22:14 NEB)

“The thick clouds enwrap him, so that he does not see, and he walks on the dome of heaven.” (The New Oxford Annotated Bible, New Revised Standard Edition)



The next passage that supports the view that the vault of heaven is hard appears in Job 37:18.

“... can you help him to spread the vault of heaven, or temper that mirror of cast metal?”(Job 37:18 JB)

“Hast thou with him spread out the sky, which is strong, and as a molten looking glass?” (Job 37:18 KJ)

“Can you, like him, spread out the skies, hard as a molten mirror?” (Job 37:18 NOAB)

“... can you join him in spreading out the skies, hard as a mirror of cast bronze?” (Job 37:18 NIV)

“Can you beat out the vault of the skies, as he does, hard as a mirror of cast metal?” (Job 37:18 NEB)

So there you have it, the two biblical passages that support my claim. What do you think?
 

JesusLives

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2013
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Can you quote those prophecies please? I'm just speculating at this point but unless I am about to be shocked, I will guess that these prophecies will in fact require quite an element of subjective reasoning as opposed to so an absolute prediction. Failing that, it comes back to my statement of 'even a stopped clock shows the right time twice a day'. It operates a long the same line of the infinite number of monkeys all randomly hitting keys on a keyboard would eventually produce the works of Shakespeare.
I pulled this off a Daily Bible Study site.
Daniel's Statue
by Wayne Blank
In the prophetic book of Daniel (see Prophecy and By The Book) we read of a dream that an ancient Babylonian king had of a great image. The meaning of the dream was made known by God (Daniel 2:23) through the prophet Daniel. The image represented a preview of humanity's worldly kingdoms from ancient times right to The Return Of Jesus Christ.
What Did King Nebuchadnezzar See?
"Thou, O king, sawest, and behold a great image. This great image, whose brightness was excellent, stood before thee; and the form thereof was terrible. This image's head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass, His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay. Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces. Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them [see Gone With The Wind]: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth." (Daniel 2:31-35 KJV)
God Interprets The Vision
"This is the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king."
"Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory. And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold."
"And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth."
"And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise."
"And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay. And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken. And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.""And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure." (Daniel 2:36-45 KJV)
The Actual Flow Of History
The head of gold is easy to understand - the Bible narrative itself clearly states (Daniel 2:36-38) that it represents the Babylonian kingdom (see Ancient Empires - Babylon) under King Nebuchadnezzar, who conquered Jerusalem and carried the Jews, including the prophet Daniel himself, off into captivity (see Why Babylon?).
What about the rest of it? This is not difficult, the facts of history are very clear.

After the Babylonian "head of gold" came the Persian empire. The Persians under their various kings, including Cyrus (who allowed the people of Judah to return to Jerusalem in the time of Ezra and Nehemiah) swept away the Babylonian empire in 536 B.C. They are the "chest and arms of silver" (see Ancient Empires - Persia).
After about 2 centuries of dominance, the Persian empire was swallowed up by the Greeks under Alexander the Great. Many consider Alexander to be the greatest military commander of all time, taking vast areas from southern Europe, across the Middle East and deep into southern Asia, all while a relatively young man. He died in his early thirties of natural causes. The Greeks became the "belly and thighs of bronze" (see Ancient Empires - Greece).
After the Greeks came the Romans, the "legs of iron." The Romans took the areas that the Greeks had, plus nearly all of the rest of Europe, including Britain. The Roman empire was of course dominant during the time of the New Testament (see Ancient Empires - Rome).History records that the Roman empire "fell" in the fifth century after Christ, a "mortal wound" to the political empire, just as it suffered a "mortal wound" to its religious empire in the time of Martin Luther a thousand years later, but it obviously recovered from both because Bible prophecy plainly says that both will exist on the day of Christ's return

JesusLives
Cyrus was named several hundred years before he took over Babylon for the Medes and Persians and how did he do it? Just as the bible says below Cyrus diverted the water supply that was going into the city of Babylon and someone had forgotten to lock the gates in the water and that is exactly how he got in and conquered Babylon - but God said Cyrus would do it before it happened as recorded in the Bible.
[h=3]Isaiah 45 [/h]New International Reader's Version (NIRV)

45 “Cyrus is my anointed king.
I take hold of his right hand.
I give him the power
to bring nations under his control.
I help him strip kings of their power
to go to war against him.
I break city gates open so he can go through them.
I say to him,
[SUP]2 [/SUP]‘I will march out ahead of you.
I will make the mountains level.
I will break down bronze gates.
I will cut through their heavy iron bars.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]I will give you treasures that are hidden away in dark places.
I will give you riches that are stored up in secret places.
Then you will know that I am the Lord.
I am the God of Israel.
I am sending for you by name.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Cyrus, I am sending for you by name.
I am doing it for the good of the family of Jacob.
They are my servants.
I am doing it for Israel.
They are my chosen people.
You do not know anything about me.
But I am giving you a title of honor.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]I am the Lord. There is no other Lord.
I am the one and only God.
You do not know anything about me.
But I will make you strong.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Then people will know there is no God but me.

This is but one prophecy where part has been fulfilled but the last part stone cut without hands crushing the feet is representative of Jesus second coming and that has not happened yet.
 

JesusLives

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2013
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Yeah of course. If you don't mind I will PM you the details. I made the mistake of breaking anonymity on a forum like this once before and it cost me months of abuse from some rather unpleasant american fundamentalists.
Please do send me how to connect to your music - looking forward to your instructions on a PM.
 

JesusLives

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2013
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"But you, Daniel, keep the words secret and seal the book till the time of the end. Many will be at their wits' end, and punishment will be heavy" (Daniel 12:4).

I have two issues, i) where is it "clearly prophesied" in the passage you indicated that "knowledge will increase"?

ii) I would think that knowledge increasing over time should be the normal state of affairs. I don't see that this would be much of a prophecy.
Just look at the last 250 years we have gone from horse and buggies to the sky's the limit. Just from when I was born 1954 we have gone from bad TV to televisions that have to be setup and programed before they play and from party line phones to cell phones. I would say that is a good indicator that knowledge has increased at a rapid pace when compared to the first several thousand years of earths history, based on my Christian view of a younger earth. So far as I can tell the prophecies of Daniel are for our time as we are living in the end. My opinion and thoughts.
 

JesusLives

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2013
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In support of spokenpassage the bible has you summed up beautifully in John 12:40 "He has blinded their eyes" and "has hardened their heart," "that they might not see with the eyes" and "understand with the heart," "and be converted," "and I should heal them."

This verse shows why anything we say falls on deaf ears. Until you become as a little child you will ALWAYS have deaf ears.
This may be but I'd like to think my motto would be I'll be dying trying to help bring them back to Jesus. God loves them too and the sacrifice Jesus made was for everyone. They just don't realize they need Him.