SALVATION ONLY POSSIBLE WITHOUT WORKS!

[Cassian]

Actually Scripture is clear that it is He who Justifies. Not us who justify ourselves.

James was simply saying, you say you have faith and that is good, but how do you know your faith is real without works? And to really get into the context, what good does your faith do (for those around you) without works?

The point is though, that we can not work ourselves to salvation. We can only work FROM salvation. Faith produces works. Or which I think is better visual, fruit. Because Jesus said bad trees can not bear good fruit. So He changed our tree, hence, we are new creations, with a new heart, a new spirit, old man is dead, and we even have the mind of Christ. Now from THIS place we can begin to do live a supernatural life that preaches the Kingdom of God through love namely, hence Jesus said we shall know who belongs to Him by the love they show one another. Not by their theology.

Further - we love God because He loved us first. We love each other because of His love. We can only give what we have received. This is the essence of grace, it empowers, this is critical to walk in true holiness, which isn't what we DO, but who we now are.

C.

Again, two things are not correct. One being justified does not mean one is saved. One may possess salvation, because we have entered into Christ. But there in nothing in scripture that says a believer cannot fall away. It gives many examples, many exhortations of keeping the faith. Salvation is something we inherit at the end. In the meantime it is all about living as Christ commanded us to live in love and obedience.
The works everyone misunderstands justifies our faith. It makes faith valid. If one does not produce fruit, faith is lost and so one will not inherit salvation at the end.

 

[Jabberjaw]

Okay let's keep it Scriptural...

Salvation is a final act.

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.
- Crossed OVER.

Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son
- Is NOT condemned.

Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.
- HAS

I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."
Eat the bread = live forever.

We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love each other. Anyone who does not love remains in death.
- Showing we are saved and from saving, we see fruit.

I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.
- KNOW you have it.

[SUP]17 [/SUP]Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation.The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. Corinthians.
- New creation, old has passed. NEW.

Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is the new creation.
Galatians: new creation.

For we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

- God's handiwork, created to do good works. New creation in Christ = do good works.

and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.

- New self.

set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
- Guarantee. It's done.

The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.
- You're Gods child, can't be unborn.

who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory.
- Ephesians / another guarantee, we are God's possession.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
- Believe = eternal life, notice it says have, not will have.

And I give to them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
- Never perish when Jesus gives life.


Let me know if you want more Scripture before you say something is unScriptural. I can show many more Scriptures that are very clear to what I said, but if you need more no problem.

Simply telling someone they have false teachings without showing them where is causing division. The bulk of Scripture clearly shows that what Christ does is permanent and that it has the deposit of guarantee in the Holy Spirit.

I found your response to what I wrote incredibly rude, so I wonder what you consider a good work is? Because Paul says if we do not have love, but have all knowledge it means nada. So if you are confident you are saved, please tell me why? Which of your good works do you point to that is keeping you saved? Jesus says it is by our love that we know who belongs to Him. How's your love level?

C.

If you quote scripture, use the book, chapter, verse (and version),

Now our only problem is what you think "believe on him" or "into Christ" means compared to what the bible says on the matter.

 

[Cassian]

Okay let's keep it Scriptural...

Salvation is a final act.

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.
- Crossed OVER.

Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son
- Is NOT condemned.

Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.
- HAS

I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."
Eat the bread = live forever.

We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love each other. Anyone who does not love remains in death.
- Showing we are saved and from saving, we see fruit.

I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.
- KNOW you have it.

[SUP]17 [/SUP]Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation.The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. Corinthians.
- New creation, old has passed. NEW.

Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is the new creation.
Galatians: new creation.

For we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

- God's handiwork, created to do good works. New creation in Christ = do good works.

and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.

- New self.

set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
- Guarantee. It's done.

The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.
- You're Gods child, can't be unborn.

who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory.
- Ephesians / another guarantee, we are God's possession.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
- Believe = eternal life, notice it says have, not will have.

And I give to them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
- Never perish when Jesus gives life.


Let me know if you want more Scripture before you say something is unScriptural. I can show many more Scriptures that are very clear to what I said, but if you need more no problem.

Simply telling someone they have false teachings without showing them where is causing division. The bulk of Scripture clearly shows that what Christ does is permanent and that it has the deposit of guarantee in the Holy Spirit.

I found your response to what I wrote incredibly rude, so I wonder what you consider a good work is? Because Paul says if we do not have love, but have all knowledge it means nada. So if you are confident you are saved, please tell me why? Which of your good works do you point to that is keeping you saved? Jesus says it is by our love that we know who belongs to Him. How's your love level?

C.

citing scripture does not prove a point. I agree with everyone of these texts. But not a single texts states you have salvation in the future. Everyone the verb believe, believes is in the present tense, active and continuing. That is the whole point, one needs to continue to have faith, must continue to remain in Christ. You possess it in the present, but there is no guarantee in the future. A believer can lose faith, very simple, very direct in scripture. Salvation is inherited finitely, at the end, which it is clear one has endured to the end, has been faithful in all things.
Christ does not give salvation to those who believed sometime in the past, as with those who were crying LORD, LORD in Matt 25 at the Last Judgement. One must continue to believe. No one has presented a text that is written is past tense, or states that if one had believed they will still be saved.

 

[secularhermit]

Salvation is a gift, a gift given in hope (not yet seen) and, of course, it is a process, sometimes a long process of healing and being healed. Just look at the endurance of those saints the Bible talks about in the OT and in the NT and tell NONE of them was absolutely empty of good deeds or those "works" you try to bypass for the sake of "perfecting" this salvation that came as a GIFT, as an invitation to a party: If you don't have that card, don't cannot be received IN.

Just look at the party Jesus spoke about when a man tried to come in and he wasn't appropriate well dressed... I don`t like wedding parties and some protocols, but I wonder who would go -to any church- wearing his shorts to marry any Barbie.

I sure my dressing is not attractive, but this is the one I want to wear: Same applies for the works as my dress. I would do what I want to wear.

 

[Elin]

I agree with this and post 1234 which is also true.....
they argue and reject that to be justified is to be saved and to be saved is to be justified...
they believe you can have one with out the other and that MAN initiates faith and that MAN must save himself by his own works and merit....heresy to the core!

They do not understand that justification in the Greek is a judicial/legal declaration, verdict of guiltlessness,
right standing (legal/judicial righteousness) before God,
because of his gift of faith (Php 1:29; 2Pe 1:1; Ac 18:27; Ro 12:30)
by which he forgives their sin, which is salvation (Lk 1:77) from the wrath of God (Ro 5:9) at the Final Judgment.

They prefer their own man-made definition over the language of the Scriptures.
Man-made defines their belief system.

And man-made is inescapable when Scripture is not the final authority.

And without a common final authority, there are no bases for examination of the Scriptures with them,

and they are wasting their time and hours here.

 

[Elin]

Elin,

I don't see the word ONLY believers in either of these texts.
How does anything in these texts make a believer?

My final authority is Scripture, yours is not.

Without a common final authority to resolve opposing differences,

you are wasting your time and ours here.

 

[Elin]

You are correct, they are used interchangeably, but neither one in and of itself saves alone.

My final authority is Scripture, yours is not.

Without a common final authority to resolve opposing differences,

you are wasting your time and ours here.

 

[Elin]

Okay let's keep it Scriptural...

Salvation is a final act.

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.
- Crossed OVER.

Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son
- Is NOT condemned.

Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.
- HAS

I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."
Eat the bread = live forever.

We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love each other. Anyone who does not love remains in death.
- Showing we are saved and from saving, we see fruit.

I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.
- KNOW you have it.

[SUP]17 [/SUP]Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation.The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. Corinthians.
- New creation, old has passed. NEW.

Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is the new creation.
Galatians: new creation.

For we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

- God's handiwork, created to do good works. New creation in Christ = do good works.

and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.

- New self.

set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
- Guarantee. It's done.

The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.
- You're Gods child, can't be unborn.

who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory.
- Ephesians / another guarantee, we are God's possession.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
- Believe = eternal life, notice it says have, not will have.

And I give to them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
- Never perish when Jesus gives life.


Let me know if you want more Scripture before you say something is unScriptural. I can show many more Scriptures that are very clear to what I said, but if you need more no problem.

Simply telling someone they have false teachings without showing them where is causing division. The bulk of Scripture clearly shows that what Christ does is permanent and that it has the deposit of guarantee in the Holy Spirit.

I found your response to what I wrote incredibly rude, so I wonder what you consider a good work is? Because Paul says if we do not have love, but have all knowledge it means nada. So if you are confident you are saved, please tell me why? Which of your good works do you point to that is keeping you saved? Jesus says it is by our love that we know who belongs to Him. How's your love level?

C.

Let me save you some time.

Cassian believes that no one can know they are saved during their lifetime.

He rejects the Reformation of false doctrine which was contrary to the NT.

He rejects Scripture as the final authority for God's truth.

 

[Apostol2013]

Well God gave salvation as a free gift (grace) as a way to be saved once confessed the initial trial begins then one is trusted to seek and eventually produce good fruits not merely knowledge but also actions ,actions like good deeds but good deeds without compassion and love is useless but here is an understanding of righteousness that we obtain all attributes of Holiness all goodness love compassion joy peace love joy ever forgiving ever merciful now it states that those that do not forgive are not forgiven that they will remain in unforgiveness , this ismentioned by both james and jesus Our Lord , this is a commandment unto life , so is charity , even to say that we abolishsin from our lives these are our commandments given by jesus but to ignore everything that jesus commanded is a heresy in its self especially teaching others to do so

 

[Apostol2013]

Now that the inside of the cup is clean now the other things are made of substance ,for if the inside of the cup is unclean then our faith is in vain that greed envy anger malice everything of the bad fruits wich corrupt the soul to perdition then the baptism is made then null because they have denied Jesus Our Christ and have crucified Him once again a very horrible thing

 

[konroh]

We are saved, Titus 3:5, we also work out our salvation with fear and trembling, Phil 2:12. Salvation is a standing, a position, a completed reality. It is also a continuing reality, a state of progression, something we work at. The first one does not negate the second, nor does the second negate the first. In other words, being saved by grace through faith does not negate the need to work out one's salvation, but neither does the working out one's salvation negate the reality of already being saved.

 

[Cassian]

They do not understand that justification in the Greek is a judicial/legal declaration, verdict of guiltlessness,
right standing (legal/judicial righteousness) before God,
because of his gift of faith (Php 1:29; 2Pe 1:1; Ac 18:27; Ro 12:30)
by which he forgives their sin, which is salvation (Lk 1:77) from the wrath of God (Ro 5:9) at the Final Judgment.

They prefer their own man-made definition over the language of the Scriptures.
Man-made defines their belief system.

And man-made is inescapable when Scripture is not the final authority.

And without a common final authority, there are no bases for examination of the Scriptures with them,

and they are wasting their time and hours here.

You should recheck your lexicon, which is usually incorrect anyway when it comes to some words and one is Jusfitication. The Greek was based on the Hebrew and it does not use the legal connotation is scripture. It uses the personal relationship. In is ONLY because Jerome did not have a Latin word when he translated the Greek into Latin, was the Roman Civil law word of justification even used. When Anselm developed his theory on the Satisfaction of Atonement he used this erroneous concept of "not guility" or guiltlessness. The Greek word in those instances is righteousness, or righteous the same as was in the Hebrew.

I suspected that you were under the influence of the erroneous idea of the Satisfaction theory, this confirms it.

The original language assists in defining what the theology might mean. It would be quite absurd to think that millions of Greeks including the Apostles themselves would have misunderstood their own language. Greek was the exclusive languare of the Church for 900 years.

At that it would not be correct either. If you want to say that Christ declares one "not guilty" upon confession, would be true, but then man sins again, and is out of guiltlessness. Every sin one commits is making man unrighteous, and confession is a daily event in the life of a believer. Confession puts man back into a correct relationship.
It also denies the very relationship we have with Christ. Your "not guilty" is an external act of imputing something but changes nothing in the person. We are in a personal relationship with Christ, He imparts righteousness when we do righteousness, especially when we confess our sins.
Being IN Christ is all about changing man, healing man, not legal meaningless pronouncements. Especially when it means finite salvation in your view.

That like the opponents to Luther's idea of Faith ONLY and his adoption of the Forensic Theory of Atonement, is that God might declare one not guilty, but that does not change the fact that man is still the same underneath. It did nothing to change man. The paraphrase is that man is still like dung, but has a covering of snow over it. Which is precisely why it is unscriptural.

 

[Cassian]

My final authority is Scripture, yours is not.

Without a common final authority to resolve opposing differences,

you are wasting your time and ours here.

How come Protestants have not not resolved what scripture means if scripture has authority? Seems to me if something actually has authority it would not give out thousands of meanings on itself. Over 500 years nothing has had a common meaning as to what scripture means. It is quite obvious to any person that the man doing the interpretation is the authority. Which is why there are as many variations as there are men interpreting it. You are living in a myth and being deceived.

 

[Cassian]

Let me save you some time.

Cassian believes that no one can know they are saved during their lifetime.

He rejects the Reformation of false doctrine which was contrary to the NT.

He rejects Scripture as the final authority for God's truth.

I guess it helps again to create false characterizations and strawmen. You should be running out of straw soon.
Not a single statement is correct. But I understand your use of strawmen, since you have nothing else to contribute.

 

[Cassian]

We are saved, Titus 3:5, we also work out our salvation with fear and trembling, Phil 2:12. Salvation is a standing, a position, a completed reality. It is also a continuing reality, a state of progression, something we work at. The first one does not negate the second, nor does the second negate the first. In other words, being saved by grace through faith does not negate the need to work out one's salvation, but neither does the working out one's salvation negate the reality of already being saved.

have your cake and eat it too. Why not live in contradiction. Can't lose anything, but then maybe you end up with nothing because you actually started with nothing.

 

[Elin]

Again, two things are not correct. One being justified does not mean one is saved.

Herein lies the fundamental and all-encompassing problem of your whole erroneous system.

You reject the Biblical meaning of justification in the Biblical language Greek,

where it is a judicial/legal declaration, verdict of guiltlessness,

a right standing (legal/judicial righteousness) before God,

because of God's gift of faith (Php 1:29; 2Pe 1:1; Ac 18:27; Ro 12:30)

by which he forgives their sin, which is salvation (Lk 1:77) from the wrath of God (Ro 5:9)
at the Final Judgment.

You prefer your own man-made definition of justification over the language of the Scriptures.

And your fundamental problem lies in your

fundamental and all-encompassing error of giving men authority over the Scriptures,

where men sit over the Scriptures, rather than sitting under them.

My final authority is Scripture. . .yours is not. I sit under them. . .you do not;

therefore, there is no common final authority by which to resolve

this fundamental and all-encompassing difference regarding justification.

So you are wasting your time and ours here.

 

[Elin]

We are saved, Titus 3:5, we also work out our salvation with fear and trembling, Phil 2:12. Salvation is a standing, a position, a completed reality. It is also a continuing reality, a state of progression, something we work at. The first one does not negate the second, nor does the second negate the first. In other words, being saved by grace through faith does not negate the need to work out one's salvation, but neither does the working out one's salvation negate the reality of already being saved.

God's single act of salvation completed in eternity is in time

past - when we came to saving faith,

present - in sanctification, and

future - at the resurrection when our bodies are redeemed.

It's all one completed act by God before the foundation of the world,
as the Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world.

 

[Elin]

You should recheck your lexicon, which is usually incorrect anyway when it comes to some words and one is Jusfitication.
The Greek was based on the Hebrew

Nice try at a dodge. . .

The Greek is the Greek is the Greek, and does not require consultation of the Hebrew for its definition.

You are wasting your time and ours here.

 

[Elin]

Let me save you some time.

Cassian believes that no one can know they are saved during their lifetime.

He rejects the Reformation of false doctrine which was contrary to the NT.

He rejects Scripture as the final authority for God's truth.

Not a single statement is correct.

Cassian denies what he has formerly affirmed many times, post #1273 above being the latest.

He likewise denies what his posts imply in his wording,

but which is short of an absolute statement of fact.

Gamey. . .

 

[Cassian]

Herein lies the fundamental and all-encompassing problem of your whole erroneous system.

You reject the Biblical meaning of justification in the Biblical language Greek,

where it is a judicial/legal declaration, verdict of guiltlessness,

a right standing (legal/judicial righteousness) before God,

because of God's gift of faith (Php 1:29; 2Pe 1:1; Ac 18:27; Ro 12:30)

by which he forgives their sin, which is salvation (Lk 1:77) from the wrath of God (Ro 5:9)
at the Final Judgment.

You prefer your own man-made definition of justification over the language of the Scriptures.

And your fundamental problem lies in your

fundamental and all-encompassing error of giving men authority over the Scriptures,

where men sit over the Scriptures, rather than sitting under them.

My final authority is Scripture. . .yours is not. I sit under them. . .you do not;

therefore, there is no common final authority by which to resolve

this fundamental and all-encompassing difference regarding justification.

So you are wasting your time and ours here.

More pronouncements that simply state your position against that of scripture. Your trying desparately to redefine just about everything to make something stick. If it was not so serious, it would be hilarious.

The Church never had a problem with this issue. There is NOTHING to resolve. The Holy Spirit has preserved Christ's Gospel frm the beginning, unchanged. Your view is hardly gospel when you can give no evidence that it is found in scripture, and some don't even want to give credit where credit is due, in that the whole theory orginates with Luther. I think some of you want to claim the view as your own, a little pride showing as well.