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TaylorTG

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@Cycel
It may be that the Koran is historically accurate in many respects as well, but none of that means Mohammed was in any way an actual prophet. The Bible too is historically accurate in places, but that doesn't mean the spiritual claims are true. Honestly, I've never seen anything in the Bible that would cause me for a moment to think the claims about God are true.
[SUP]1[/SUP]The bible should be considered as a historical text written from a spiritual perspective.

[SUP]2[/SUP]Keep in mind that the bible is largely formed from personal experiences, written in various stories and poems. It would take a lot of determination to prove that every single revelation listed in the bible is based off of purely human imagination.

[SUP]3[/SUP]The bible doesn't even record every spiritual event that occurred in history. There are verses which hint of many more things that happened outside the text.

^^^(<--- Of course, this would be common logic, but for the sake of the debate, lets apply it to the [SUP]2[/SUP] of the post.)
 
Feb 26, 2011
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Even the people who says that they are atheists remember God when they are in trouble.To those who donot believe in God should look at this world and should observe their life...........they will see that behind every thing there is some creator...besides.....if we depend on our own knowledge for knowing God,then it should b remembered that our knowledge is very limited.There is a system that we see in this world and there is a spiritual system that is hidden.But the people who open the eye of their heart can see it.If we depend on our thoughts then it should b remembered that thought never take us to an end.There is always another thought after the previous one...It is not always necessary to understand to believe...
 
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tarzan

Guest
Wow! Recent.

I must tell you I too am an atheist. I was also raised in a Protestant household but experienced my first doubts about age ten. I was an atheist by age sixteen. I find that there are quite a variety of experiences that cause people to lose their belief in God. Many Christians think we must have suffered abusive upbringings or had other traumatic experiences that led to the atheism, but I haven't yet come across any atheist whose claimed that type of experience.
I daresay, if it is even given to you to understand, that for this kind of mind, it will require great traumatic experiences to bring to life in your mind that which is necessary to be able to receive the truth. Soil must be toiled, and ripped apart, and weeded, and refreshed with harsh smelling compost, and reworked, and smoothed out, and made even, and heated, and watered, before any seed that is planted within it will have the ability to flourish. IN the same way must the flesh, the center of which is the brain, must be toiled, and ripped apart, and weeded, and garbage must be dumped upon it, and it must be reworked, and smoothed out, and made even, and heated, and watered, before anything good will be allowed to grow in the mind which has waxed into a desert - for it is full of dry sand by day, and the winds are great, and the light is bright and hot; but at night, it is extremely cold, and it is dark, and though there is great beauty in the sky, that beauty can never be reached with the hand that yearns for the beauty of a bed, a meal, and a cup of cold water.

An atheist will count the stars and never discount their beauty. A Christian will count the people and will never discount their beauty. And yet the proof is in the stars. When the star goes supernova, it gives birth to the same star, but gives it more power and it is much greater to behold. The same is for people. When the atheist dies to himself and becomes Christian, there is a supernova, and though the star decreases in size of humility, it increases in great power and the light from the transition is great and it fills the sky. Rigel cannot compete with the conversion of a human to a quickening spirit by the power of God.

An atheist will discover the laws of physics. A Christian will break them.
An atheist will discover new diseases. A Christian will cure them.
An atheist will measure the size of the universe. A Christian will travel it.
An atheist will say, "This cannot be done." A Christian will do it.
An atheist will forgive a dog before a human. A Christian will forgive all.
An atheist will set sail in the depths of the imagination. A Christian will catalyze the imagination.
An atheist will think it is by his own devices he survives. A Christian will survive effortlessly to the jealousy and anger of all.
An atheist will use logic, but the end of his logic is ineffective, because he followed the rules. A Christian will use logic to reveal mysteries and to expand the boundaries of thought. For this the atheists will take credit.
An atheist sees a Christian as another wandering puppy. The Christian sees the atheist as proof of God.
An atheist is more willing to believe in the pagan gods of the power of the elements. A Christian is given power over the elements. The atheists will bow.
An atheist is like a great dam. And it is heavily fortified, and no water that comes up to it may get out. And the river of knowledge and wisdom is dammed and is not allowed to pass through that one. A Christian is like a great dam whereupon water is allowed to pass through it. And the water is routed through the turbines that energy may be extracted. And the energy is extracted and routed to wherever the workers of the dam see fit. And the knowledge and the wisdom is converted to power so that many may live.

An atheist is like a campfire, so that in the morning there is evidence that there was a small burning. A Christian is a wildfire and no one can put it out, and it consumes the whole forest, and the memory of that fire is forever recorded in the hearts and minds of all who witnessed it.

An atheist is like a vegetable plant. For it is planted and grows in its season and it produces some fine vegetables every day for a little season, and then the weather comes and destroys it and it is nothing thereafter. A Christian is a fruit tree, who in the first year of his life he may not survive any season, but if he survives, he quickly grows and becomes strong, and twists and turns and his branches grow out slowly and in the fifth year of his life he may begin to produce fruit. And the weather will not destroy that tree.

An atheist is not reached by logic, for in that they fail because they consider that their strength. For they have said God does not exist out of the foolishness of their own hearts. Where is the logic? Knowing that God cannot be seen, they outright discount that which they cannot see. They do this thinking that logically if they cannot see, then they cannot be seen. You will not reach an atheist with worldly intelligence or logic, for it is their weakness, not their strength.

If you will reach an atheist, you will only do it through the heart, which has become a cold grey stone. One needs to smite the stone with a staff if God will allow the waters to pour forth from it. And then Israel will be able to drink from the fountain which came from the unsure place.
 
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TaylorTG

Guest
Even the people who says that they are atheists remember God when they are in trouble.To those who donot believe in God should look at this world and should observe their life...........they will see that behind every thing there is some creator...besides.....if we depend on our own knowledge for knowing God,then it should b remembered that our knowledge is very limited.There is a system that we see in this world and there is a spiritual system that is hidden.But the people who open the eye of their heart can see it.If we depend on our thoughts then it should b remembered that thought never take us to an end.There is always another thought after the previous one...It is not always necessary to understand to believe...
In a way, you're right. Our human intellect can't fully grasp God's essence, but it grasps enough to believe in it even if we don't fully understand it.

Now it certainly is necessary to understand the systems in order to believe. The Holy Spirit implants periodic thoughts in our minds to help us understand things a bit more. Whenever a particular thought crosses your mind, stay in that thought and reflect carefully on it before moving on to the next thought.

Our thoughts are for us to listen too, don't let them flash by.
 
Jul 27, 2011
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When one comes to Jesus, they have every thing to gain, and nothing to loose. So another question that i have for atheist. What if?
 
Dec 9, 2013
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According to the wiki prophecy needs these things to be true.

A valid prophecy must meet several criteria:
It must actually be a prophecy. Not a documentation of events that is misinterpreted as a prophecy after a similar event occurs later.
It must be written before the events that it predicts.
The predicted events must actually occur.
The prediction must be both falsifiable and verifiable.
It must not be overly vague.
It must not predict a likely event.
It must not be self-fulfilling.

Let us apply these standards to

Ezekiel 37:21-22
New King James Version (NKJV)
21 “Then say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; 22 and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again.

As history shows Israel became one nation again in 1948 with one king (prime minister) and Jews were gathered throughout the world to Israel.

However, athiests say this is a "self-fulfilling prophesy." They say that it came about simply because it was written in the Bible.
if one studies the history of Israel becoming a nation again, they would quickly realize this could not have come about simply, because a group of people wanted to fulfill prophesy.

first one must realize that the original plan by the United Nations was to establish a Arab/Palestinian land and a Jewish land. This was not received well by the Arabs because they hate no other people greater than they do the Jews. Palestinians even sold some of their to Jewish settlers because they had ever intention of taking it back once war was declared after the time of the British mandate came to a close.

Over 6 countries went to war against Israel after only hours of being declared a nation. Though being not as well equipped as the Arab nations, Israel won the war and again won a war in 1967. It. Not like the Arabs planned to lose, because they were apart of some giant conspiracy to keep Israel as a nation. After the war, all the surrounding Arab countries expelled all Jews, which totaled in the hundreds of thousands. These Jews moved to Israel. Again, the Arab nations had no care to fulfill prophecy, they did it because they hate the Jews.

also there was huge opposition against Trueman in the United States toward making Israel a nation again.

lets look at Hitler. Hitler would have exterminated every last Jew in all of Europe. The only reason he did not succeed was because Japan (who had no care to fulfill Biblical prophesy) attacked Pearl Harbor, thus bringing the reluctant USA into the war. Only because the USa got involved were the Jews saved.

lets go back further. Jews, through out history remained a unique and individual people. Though they were severed from their homeland for 1900 years, they remained seperate and were not assimilated into other societies as every other defeated nation was.

I have only touched the tip of the iceberg here. There are far too many "coincidences" and oppositions for this to be a "self fulfilling prophecy."
Ezekiel wrote this in exile in Babylon.
Certainly his desire was for his people to be regathered into a single nation again.
The two kingdoms speak of that of Judah and Israel (exiled by Assyrians years before)
Those in northern kingdom not exiled or those that returned years later after the babylonian exile would have been absorbed into the kingdom of Judah.

Thus this prophecy is fulfilled with the return of the exiles and the rebuilding of the temple.

That is one interpretation, since the actual prophecy does not specify any details or give any time frames it can be used to predict any number of future events.

So yes the founding of the nation of Israel in 1948 does seem to fit this prophecy in Ezekiel, yet it is not clear that the intention of the prophecy was to predict a 2500 year old future event.
 
Apr 26, 2014
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Alas...the claim of sheer ignorance is all that it takes to be a non-theist.

Who would have guessed...?
Ignorance is when there is an answer out there and you're unaware of it or don't care to seek it. My answer wasn't ignorant it was honest. What's worse: genuinely not knowin and claiming to know, or genuinely not knowing and admitting it? I don't know if God exists or not because we have no way to test for his existence and confirm it. He is classified as supernatural and is therfore unfalsifiable and untestable. This is the agnostic stance and the stance of a rational mind. I'm also an atheist in that I'm unconvinced he exists. The two are not mutually exclusive. My stance is quite simply: I don't know if God exists but I am unconvinced that he does.
It's a claim of intellectual honesty to be a non theist and a claim of an unknowable answer to be a theist.
 
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Sirk

Guest
Ignorance is when there is an answer out there and you're unaware of it or don't care to seek it. My answer wasn't ignorant it was honest. What's worse: genuinely not knowin and claiming to know, or genuinely not knowing and admitting it? I don't know if God exists or not because we have no way to test for his existence and confirm it. He is classified as supernatural and is therfore unfalsifiable and untestable. This is the agnostic stance and the stance of a rational mind. I'm also an atheist in that I'm unconvinced he exists. The two are not mutually exclusive. My stance is quite simply: I don't know if God exists but I am unconvinced that he does.
It's a claim of intellectual honesty to be a non theist and a claim of an unknowable answer to be a theist.
A stake in the intellectual high ground. You talk in circles.

....and you never answered my question. What was your intention in coming here? School project?
 
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Dec 9, 2013
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I don't know you, but you seem like an intelligent man. Having said that, can you honestly say that the answers you gave are resonable? Pay very close attention to the questions I asked and compare to them to how you answered. From your side, value holds no value, merit holds no merit, be it just for the present or eternity, it doesn't matter. From your side everything that ends, making everything you do pointless. Being created randomly means we have no purpose, and things like meaning, value, emotion means absolutly nothing. From your side, existence was never meant to happen,that it was completely accidental. Time has no meaning then, me and you having a conversion about is meaningless, eating is meaningless, happiness is meaningless, everything is meaningless, so why bother? Because you can? What does that mean?: nothing. I'm not trying to be a jerk, and I'm not trying to say I'm the smartest man in the universe, but this is the reality of your side.You can argue against, you could do reseach, you can do whatever you want but this fact won't
change.

Sorry, but I couldn't go easy on you.
Why does it sound like you are patronizing me? hmm

Well I tried to give you my perspective, did you even read my answers? I doubt you will refute any of them, it seems you just think they lack eternal perspective and value.

The point I believe you are trying to make is that without a personal God and an afterlife, nothing has any ultimate meaning or purpose. In a way I agree with you, in the grand scheme of things our lives and actions are ultimately meaningless. Our atoms will simply move on and form other structures, earth will be destroyed, our sun will die out, new stars and new planets etc...

But so what, I disagree that that has any bearing on my life right now. The only meaning and purpose that matters is the one I give my life in the here and now.

Its a matter of perspective, you have an eternal one, I have a present one. Thus having a debate over the value of love is meaningless since we are not on the same page.
 
Apr 26, 2014
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the only question I would ever ask an atheist is who's air do you breathe? It came from some source other than science even an intelligent idiot can relate to all truth and not just some truth. Several truths emerge in the world but only one truth supersedes all other truth. So for the sake of asking an atheist as part of the op and not getting side tracked on other stuff that would be my only question.
Who says there is a who? What indicates there is a "who" who owns the air? So far we have found no indication to lead us to believe this. But if you must establish a "who" I would say it's the Earth's air.
Science isn't the source of anything at least not in the way you're proposing. Science discovers things that already exist and figures out why they exist and how they got here. "Air" or more specifically oxygen was formed the same way all the other elements were formed: through fusion in the core of suns. Supernova occur, the elements burst outwards and condense into planets, including the oxygen. Apply billions of years to the equation and you got earth. As far as all that stuff I truly don't know what you're talking about and maybe you can clarify.
 
Apr 26, 2014
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And he probably will, with scripture. You don't have to PROVE what you BELIEVE in.
You yourself are making it quite clear that the burden of proof doesn't have any RESPECT for our 'turf.' I mean, who are you to insist that people produce scientific PROOF for their most sincer convictions? We're aren't on trial here, you decided to put yourself on trial by coming here. I say you're guilty of
impertinence and rudeness.
You misunderstand me. You can believe whatever you want and you don't need to prove anything to hold those beliefs in your own mind. What you do in your head is your business and I'd never demand that someone spill out their proof for it. HOWEVER, as soon as you voice your beliefs as statements of facts, as claims, you then place the burden of proof on yourself and I am fully justified in asking for proof at that point. Whether anyone then supplies that proof is up to them but if they don't then nobody has any obligation to further listen to them or consider them credible.
 

Agricola

Senior Member
Dec 10, 2012
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I see we are all still trying to prove and disprove God by "clever" arguments and debates over silly and trivial things. debate someone into thinking XYZ is right, such as God, they can be debated out of thinking that a few weeks later.

I notice all my questions regarding that I know God is real were not even considered, but then they never are. Funny how the direct things I speak of go ignored by non-believers. Probably its because they can not come up with a counter reply or debunk it.
 
Apr 26, 2014
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When one comes to Jesus, they have every thing to gain, and nothing to loose. So another question that i have for atheist. What if?
Wrong. You may not understand what is to gain but I can tell you I'm much happier now than I ever was when I was christian. That statement just simply isn't true. However if I am wrong I burn in hell for eternity. But if you're wrong about islam the same awaits you. So why don't you believe? And what about Zeus and the Greek pantheon? You'd better prepare some offerings so you can get a good afterlife in the underworld. What you've proposed is known as pascals wager. It fails for multiple reasons, two being the ones I laid out above. It assumes that the theist side has everything to gain and nothing to lose and the atheist side has everything to lose and nothing to gain which just isn't true. It doesn't account for any of the other possible religions and afterlifes and then can be reversed onto you. It also assumes belief is a switch one can turn on and off which isn't true. I can't will myself to believe anymore that I can will myself to believe in the tooth fairy. It isn't a matter of will so it isn't a fair wager. It also is kind of an insult to god. If I was god and I knew some guy was just faking belief or only believing just to avoid hell does he deserve to go to heaven? Not likely. It could also go as far to assume that God is an idiot that doesn't see right though this which isn't true of an omniscent being. Finally and most simply it isn't a good reason to believe. The fact that I might be wrong isn't enough for me to drop everything I know about the world in favor of something I see no evidence for. It isn't intellectually honest.
 
D

didymos

Guest
(...)
It's a claim of intellectual honesty to be a non theist and a claim of an unknowable answer to be a theist.
Ooh... ah... 'intellectual honesty,' you're so special... :rolleyes:

You fail to understand that our faith is all about having a real relationship with God,
NOT as much about giving answers.

(...), as it is written:
“What no eye has seen,
what no ear has heard,
and what no human mind has conceived”
the things God has prepared for those who love Him.

(1 Corinthians 2:9)

And btw, we're not 'theists,' we're CHRISTIANS... do your homework ok?
 
Apr 26, 2014
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A stake in the intellectual high ground. You talk in circles.

....and you never answered my question. What was your intention in coming here? School project?
How? You claimed that my atheism Is because of ignorance. I demonstrated that isn't true.

I apologize for not answering that. I probably missed it as I've missed a few people now due to getting bogged down by the flow of responses. Ill sit down and go through everything to find the ones I missed when I get a chance.

My answer is simply to talk. To understand your various positions. To test my own. To meet interesting people and viewpoints. To hear arguments I haven't been exposed to before. And I generally enjoy this setting. I'm a talker, it's what I do.
 
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Sirk

Guest
How? You claimed that my atheism Is because of ignorance. I demonstrated that isn't true.

I apologize for not answering that. I probably missed it as I've missed a few people now due to getting bogged down by the flow of responses. Ill sit down and go through everything to find the ones I missed when I get a chance.

My answer is simply to talk. To understand your various positions. To test my own. To meet interesting people and viewpoints. To hear arguments I haven't been exposed to before. And I generally enjoy this setting. I'm a talker, it's what I do.
Could there be a hidden intention you have not considered? Find a quiet place and meditate on that question and see if a deeper answer comes.
 
Apr 26, 2014
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Ooh... ah... 'intellectual honesty,' you're so special... :rolleyes:

You fail to understand that our faith is all about having a real relationship with God,
NOT as much about giving answers.

(...), as it is written:
“What no eye has seen,
what no ear has heard,
and what no human mind has conceived”
the things God has prepared for those who love Him.

(1 Corinthians 2:9)

And btw, we're not 'theists,' we're CHRISTIANS... do your homework ok?
I get that it's faith based. I get that it's about this relationship. However people here are more than happy to argue with me regardless and make apologetic arguments. If you're not interested in that then that's fine. My stance is that nothing should be believed without good reason. Nothing should be believed blindly. Alot of people here agree and are more than happy to supply their reasons. Again you're not obligated to as well.
My argument above is that God is defined as outside space and time. Supernatural. Beyond the natural world. Ect. The only thing we can test for and by extension prove are things within the natural world. We the fore have no way of testing for a god. And therfore cannot establish a reason for believing in him at the physical evidence level and therfore I hold the opinion thay because of this it is only intellectually honest not to believe, then to believe without evidence ie: through faith.

And I understand that you're christians. However Christianity falls under the catagory of monotheism, and then the overarching definition of theism. Theism-the belief in a god or gods. Monotheism-the belief in one singular god. Christianity- belief in the god of the bible (among much more I'm not overgeneralizing here).
 

Agricola

Senior Member
Dec 10, 2012
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And so it descends to chaos and arguing as the attempt to argue people into believing something new fails.... again.
 
Apr 26, 2014
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Could there be a hidden intention you have not considered? Find a quiet place and meditate on that question and see if a deeper answer comes.
Believe it or not, not all atheists want to deconvert everyone. I couldn't care less if anyone here stays a Christian for life, by all means that's their right and its probably a great part of their lives that I don't want to take away. I'm here for those reasons above, that's it. If anyone reads my responses and thinks "hey I should investigate this stuff" or "that's a good point" then cool, wonderful, but I don't really care about that. What that tells me though is that my stance is holding up, which tells me I'm on the right track with my beliefs (or lack of), arguments, and opinions, which IS important to me.
 
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