Deacon run Church

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CEF said:
My current church Pleasant Hill is having a serious problem with thinming the deacons can run the churh and decide to fire my daddy. What dxo you think on that? What does scripture say on this matter?

My daddy is the pastor.
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In some churches, there is a monarchical pastor. In some denominations, a church typically has a board that makes decisions for the church. Certain Baptist and AOG churches will have a board of 'deacons' who make these decisions. That doesn't really fit with the Biblical concept of 'deacon' very well, which seemed to role of those who fed widows and helped people in material ways by stewarding church resources.

In the Bible, we do not see the monarchical pastor system or the deacon-system. We do see a plurality of elders, with the congregation having input. Apostles could also play an important role in church government. We have an example of apostles and elders discussing an issue until they perceived they knew what pleased the Holy Spirit. Jesus is Lord over the church. He is the true Monarch over it.
 
Bookends said:
I'd like to see your proof texts that support a single authority figure in the church besides Christ?
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I have already given two scriptures.
Please note, it's the Pastor who has the care of the Church, 1 Tim 3: 5.
1 Pet 5: 1--4, also mentions the Pastor has the oversight of the Church.
The, Bishop, Elder, Shepherd and Pastor, all have the same meaning, according to the Greek Bible texts.
 
saved1975 said:
I have already given two scriptures.
Please note, it's the Pastor who has the care of the Church, 1 Tim 3: 5.
1 Pet 5: 1--4, also mentions the Pastor has the oversight of the Church.
The, Bishop, Elder, Shepherd and Pastor, all have the same meaning, according to the Greek Bible texts.
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Thanks for the reply, I don't always prefer to what was said after the original post due to time constraints. However, I don't believe 1 Timothy 3:5 is a prove text for single leadership, but for any and all positions of leadership, but mostly for Bishop (context 1 Timothy 3:1). Bishop is another term for elder, overseer, see vines definition here. It is different word then shepherd/pastor. However, one of the jobs of an elder is to shepherd/disciple others. So in that sense, I agree they are the same. But, whenever the bible talks of shepherds in a church setting, it always use in the plurality sense of the word, except when speaking of Christ.

As for 1 Peter 5, Peter starts with Elders (plural) I exhort. Then he says he is a fellow elder, meaning is holds and shares this position with others. There is no singularity use of eldership to describe the church leadership here.

I still fail to see any biblical proof texts that support your view of single pastoral leadership.
 
I think what we are seeing here is a matter of trust issues. No one seems to be able to trust one another. The church congregation must trust the pastor. The pastor must trust his congregation and both must trust the Lord. Deacons come from the congregation and yes they minister to the needs of the church but they can also advise and support the pastor. The pastor must be accountable to Christ first and then to the congregation and deacons.

Now I have no facts relating to this specific church and its pastor but in many cases this will be traced back to financial trouble. Without knowledge of what the issues are and where the strife is coming from all we have is undefined and fluid accusations that cannot be specifically addressed.

Pastors are a gift from God not appointed by some administrative board. Those who cannot appreciate that are destined to live with the turmoil that politics always produces.

Get your pastor from God and get peace and prosperity in the church.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
saved1975 said:
God has Anointed the Pastor to run the Church, Not the deacon. Eph 4:11.
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Where does Ephesians 4:11 say that the pastor is anointed to run the church. I can't find that in my Bible.

I can find where the apostles appointed a group of elders in every church. I can find verses where elders are told to pastor the flock of God/ church of God.
 
jonathanbchristian said:
There is a big problem with church structure today. The whole system is really unbiblical. For example: becoming a pastor, you usually have to pay thousands of dollars for school (I did) just to get a degree and become a pastor. Really all the teaching you need should come from your church funded by your tithe. But obviously tithe is not enough for todays church leaders; they are always looking for more than that. Teachers are part of the church structure "third teachers" and should be for everyone not just those who can pay loads of money. Pastor being the only one paid is also error. Some do that. Most church offices are not even considered anymore. As for decons they were never biblically meant to be your churches congress but most of the time they are. We fashion church after democracy more than a biblical culture.
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I totally agree with the bolded statement above!
 
Only two legit reasons to vacate the pulpit...

1. Man is preaching heresy
2. Man is living an immoral lifestyle

If he is preaching truth, meets the qualifications as found in Timothy and Titus and has his family under control then there really is no reason to biblically fire a Pastor and vacate the pulpit.

Personality Difficulties covered under LOVE
People attempting to usurp the authority of the office covered under the Bible
Church growth or lack there of is up to GOD
ALL are required to witness so as to GROW the church as it is not just the Pastors JOB as he is to STUDY and GIVE HIMSELF TO PRAYER!
 
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Yet said:
Johnathan...book chapter and verse please!

What part of 1Peter 5:3 don't you get?

So all a person has to do is quit his job. Have a card made up with Reverend or Pastor in front of his name. Rent a building and that gives him automatic authority over everyone else? Is that what u r saying Johnathan?
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No thats not what I am saying. I am saying a pastor needs a prophetic word that he is called to be a pastor. Then he can go out and make disciples out of converts. If they want a building or tax exemption is up to them.
 
Bookends said:
Thanks for the reply, I don't always prefer to what was said after the original post due to time constraints. However, I don't believe 1 Timothy 3:5 is a prove text for single leadership, but for any and all positions of leadership, but mostly for Bishop (context 1 Timothy 3:1). Bishop is another term for elder, overseer, see vines definition here. It is different word then shepherd/pastor. However, one of the jobs of an elder is to shepherd/disciple others. So in that sense, I agree they are the same. But, whenever the bible talks of shepherds in a church setting, it always use in the plurality sense of the word, except when speaking of Christ.

As for 1 Peter 5, Peter starts with Elders (plural) I exhort. Then he says he is a fellow elder, meaning is holds and shares this position with others. There is no singularity use of eldership to describe the church leadership here.

I still fail to see any biblical proof texts that support your view of single pastoral leadership.
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Although Pastor doesn't have the same Greek words as, Bishop, Shepherd, or Elder, The Greek says they are all the same Ministry, Which is the Pastor [Singular] of a local Church.
1 Tim 3: 5 put the Pastor in the singular, Not plural.

As for understanding 1 Pet 5: 1. You have to look at 1 Pet 1: 1. Peter is talking to people from lots of different places.
So there would be Elders [Pastors] from lots of different places.
God's Church has a Pastor and Deacons to help him, A Deacon means a helper.
 
I think that the deacons should not be able to make that decision. It should come before the church.
 
Am I the only one wondering why he was fired in the first place? Before everyone starts bashing a congregation you know nothing about it may be a good idea to see why this situation happened in the first place
 
I grew up in an AOG church where the deacons had alot of authority. It creates problems with every pastor. Biblically the person over the pastor should be more involved with overseeing pastor. Pastor should be checking deacons not the other way around.
 
We really have two separate issues.

1. The theoretical issue of what "should" be done, how things "ought" to be handled.

2. The concrete reality of what CEF's father is stuck dealing with.
He is dealing with some very concrete realities, and those have nothing to do with "should".
People are probably going to do whatever they WANT to do... whether it's right or not.
 
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saved1975 said:
Although Pastor doesn't have the same Greek words as, Bishop, Shepherd, or Elder, The Greek says they are all the same Ministry, Which is the Pastor [Singular] of a local Church.
1 Tim 3: 5 put the Pastor in the singular, Not plural.

As for understanding 1 Pet 5: 1. You have to look at 1 Pet 1: 1. Peter is talking to people from lots of different places.
So there would be Elders [Pastors] from lots of different places.
God's Church has a Pastor and Deacons to help him, A Deacon means a helper.
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Say I own a business and I need to hire 5 employees (plural) for the same position, lets say its a data entry person. This person (singlar) needs the following qualifications: needs to know how to type, has to be able to work at a fast pace, has to be able to lift 20 lbs of paperwork, etc. etc....This what I feel is exactly going in 1 Timothy 3. 1 Timothy doesn't address the issue of how many elder are needed, but only the qualifications of an elder.

But I realize we could go on and on without resolution, so this is my last word on this post.
 
I have an issue with voting for pastors aswell. Congregations can go through a pastor every two years and just.vote in a new one. The verse about offices says Jesus set them in the church and "to some He gave". In other words each person called to one of these offices is given to "some" Christians or a certain congregation of Christians. For example one of the apostles was to the Jews and another to the Gentiles. God gives offices or workers to the different churches for them specifically. If I was a pastor given by God to the Church in New Mexico. It would be a shame for that church to vote in a guy whos really called to Kenya.
 
A congregation can run without elders. Otherwise titus and Timothy wouldn't have had to appoint any. They would have already existed.
 
CEF said:
I think that the deacons should not be able to make that decision. It should come before the church.
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That is the way we are set up but not all churches have their bylaws and charters the same. Hate to say it but this should not be a new revelation to the pastor. If the deacons have that much authority then this is an expected outcome.

A pastor does not report to the deacons but to the Lord. the pastor must make account to the Lord for how he has tended to the flock God has entrusted to his care.

If he's too good (preaching too straight) for this congregation God will have another eager to receive him.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
I appreciate your concern and wandering why my dad got fired. My dad got fired because the deacons were receiving complaints from church members so they say about the way my dad preaches. My dad is not the type of dad where he will preach and expect nothing he expects change from his congregation. The church by laws say that it has to come before the church the deacons do not have are that power. Basically he got fired because people are feeling uncomfortable and don't want to change. This church has done this three times. My dad has prayed about it long and hard and has deciding he is not resigning. He is going to face the deacons. He believes if he doesn't the deacons will still think they have the power. Nobody has ever shut them down before.

Catherine
 
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