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gleener

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I once heard a man talk about lie detector tests He performs them in his line of work and he has been doing them for 40 years and at the end of all his tests he asks the person doing the test do you believe there is a God He said not once did someone ever answer in 40 years No I do not believe there is a God and it came up they were telling the truth so Mr Skepticjosh do you think you can tell the truth and really believe there is no God?
 
Aug 25, 2013
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"I've never seen anything in the Bible that would cause me for a moment to think the claims about God are true." -Cycel

Since the bible is 2/3 prophecy
Two thirds? Where does this figure come from? I think it is way too high.

... let me give you two that haven't happened yet. When they do, you can change the statement above.

Isaiah 17:1 The burden of Damascus. Behold, Damascus is taken away from being a city, and it shall be a ruinous heap
Revelation 13:16-17

King James Version (KJV)

16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
Verse 16 presumes slavery still exists. Did you notice that?

It is my belief that the author of Revelation was writing for the people of his own time. He fully expected the end times to transpire very soon. He was not writing for an audience living some 2000 years into the future.

I still have not seen anything in scripture to convince me that there is anything reliable behind the spiritual claims. I have been shown a few biblical prophecies but none of them appeared convincing.
 
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AgeofKnowledge

Guest
At it's core your argument is non sequitur as all actual change past, present, and future with respect to the material universe, world, the human experience, angelic conflict, etc... is Biblical within the frame of reference of God's own immutability and eternality, of course.

I became an atheist, perhaps one of the most important ones, is that I began realizing some 50 years ago that religion evolves. This has not been refuted in my opinion, but rather I see it as a fact. This subject could be a thread all on its own.
 
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AgeofKnowledge

Guest
Read 'Is God a Moral Monster' by Paul Copan.



[video=youtube_share;CyLpygp4eSE]http://youtu.be/CyLpygp4eSE[/video]

what, you think there's no human in bonds today?
 
Aug 25, 2013
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what, you think there's no human in bonds today?
I think the author of Revelation was referring to Roman society of the day. It was not his intention to address Christians 2000 years into the future.
 
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Sirk

Guest
I think the author of Revelation was referring to Roman society of the day. It was not his intention to address Christians 2000 years into the future.
Gods word is the same yesterday today and tomorrow. John was inspired by the Holy Spirit as he wrote those words
 
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Anonimous

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No thanks...i'll pass.............
 
Mar 18, 2011
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"Verse 16 presumes slavery still exists. Did you notice that?"-Cycel

Free and bond. That could mean slave, or prisoner. Both would be accurate for todays world. Not sure if you realize it or not but slavery isn't dead. I however read it like a prisoner.
 
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Anonimous

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Why would I be interested in what a non-believer doesn't believe about someone he doesn't even believe in?
 
Mar 18, 2011
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I think the author of Revelation was referring to Roman society of the day. It was not his intention to address Christians 2000 years into the future.
:) thats another thread altogether Cycel. I'm not one of those who believes that. I believe Revelations does include some of its own time but that it progresses all the way to the end.
 
Mar 18, 2011
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"Two thirds? Where does this figure come from? I think it is way too high."-Cycel

It came from a few scattered sources. I also think it's to high. I had some difficulty figuring out if they had been going off of words, verses, chapters, topic etc. Tintin first pointed that out as well. After some looking into it I'd have to agree.
 
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AgeofKnowledge

Guest
Most commentators, ancient and modern, think that the Book of Revelation received its present form in the last years of the reign of Domitian (81–96). Internal evidence can be adduced that confirms this external consensus.

I'm going to take a minute and explain that God can change anything that does not involve a contradiction or that does not go against His unchangeable nature ( Mal. 3:6 ; 2 Tim. 2:13 ; Titus 1:2 ; Heb. 6:18 ). God can change non-moral things without any apparent or stated reason. Sometimes God commands change because of the changing conditions of humanity.

A major reason for change is that God has an unfolding plan. This plan has stages in which some things are necessary and stages where something else is necessary. Once a prophecy “type” has been fulfilled (the blood of the lamb), when the reality comes, the type is no longer needed. Once the foundation of the church was laid in the apostles ( Eph. 2:20 ), the apostles were no longer needed.

Also, people wander from God and invent fabrications as occurred in pagan antiquity and occur today with the advent of Islam and other false religious systems and cults. Sometimes people repent and want reform. If they are unsuccessful within the existing context, then they create a new one. The Protestant reform and the Catholic counter reform provide examples but there are many. Humanity's freewill predicates change.

But back to God. In view of the principle of progressive revelation, the later revelations are not contradictory, but complementary. They do not make mistakes, but reveal more truth. Later revelations do not negate the former; they simply replace them. Since they were not given for all, but only for a specified time, they do not conflict when they change. No two opposing commands are for the same people at the same time.

God does not reveal everything at once, nor does he lay down the same conditions for every period of history. Some of his later revelations will supersede his earlier statements. Bible critics sometimes confuse a change in revelation with a mistake. It's not. It's progressive revelation.

The point here is that God's unfolding plan and prophecy in a sin permeated world housing a willful humanity residing in an angelic conflict is reason enough to begin to question the preterist (which atheists prefer) view that John intended everything he wrote in Revelations to occur in his lifetime.

And once you begin that study, it becomes apparent that it is so. An example, the final manifestation of the beast and false prophet (when tied to Paul's Man of Sin) seems to indicate that John's series of antichrists (whether John here envisions this or not) will indeed give way to a final end-times persecutor of the people of God, in which the state uses its powers to impose the false teaching described by John on the people of God.

In fact, both John (Rev. 20:1-10) and Paul (2 Thess. 2:1-12) speak of Satan's power as currently restrained, in some way, until the time of the end... an end in which travel and knowledge have dramatically increased far past John's time. And this may be why John here speaks of a series of antichrists and not an Antichrist (indeed, John believes many antichrists have already come).

I could go on and on but I have things to do. Peace.


I think the author of Revelation was referring to Roman society of the day. It was not his intention to address Christians 2000 years into the future.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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I think the author of Revelation was referring to Roman society of the day. It was not his intention to address Christians 2000 years into the future.

fantastic! hooray, opinions!

but the verse you pointed at is by no means evidence. :)

and i don't think John had any "intentions" at all:

For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
(2 Peter 1:21)
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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Read 'Is God a Moral Monster' by Paul Copan.
thanks but -- why?

do i think God is a "moral monster" and need ejoo-katin with regards to it?

far from it. the Lord is to be praised, not to be judged by humans idolizing their own minds!
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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I don't read all the discussion in this topic. May be my question was ask by other. But my question is in you believe system (Atheist) who create universe ?
 
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AgeofKnowledge

Guest
So that you'll be better equipped to help others who may have questions about the topic. No other reason was intended. I'm going to slip in this video for the atheists to view here. I hope you don't mind. Stenger wasn't brave enough to include this one:

[video=youtube_share;WNbdUEqDB-k]http://youtu.be/WNbdUEqDB-k[/video]

thanks but -- why?
 
Aug 25, 2013
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:) thats another thread altogether Cycel. I'm not one of those who believes that. I believe Revelations does include some of its own time but that it progresses all the way to the end.
Do you think it is possible to tease out what was pertinent to the author's own time, from what is only relevant for the end times?
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
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I think the author of Revelation was referring to Roman society of the day. It was not his intention to address Christians 2000 years into the future.
Cycel KNOWS there's no God. Yet he doesn't even know that there is plenty of slavery going on today. I'm sure his ignorance is lost on him. Reminds me of the arrogance of scientists who can't predict the weather accurately 3 days out, yet KNOW that man-made global warming is going to cause global temps. to rise 6 degrees a hundred years from now.

This map shows where the world’s 30 million slaves live. There are 60,000 in the U.S.
 
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