Spiritualizing away the truth.

[haz]

Fair enough Brother Haz, thank you and to our LORD JESUS CHRIST, by the HOLY SPIRIT's help, as our Helper, i understand.

One of the example of our LORD JESUS CHRIST (Matthew 5;21,22) - In the Old Covenant, we are taught;

"You have heard that it was said to those of old, You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgement. 'But I say you' that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgement; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, You fool! will be liable to the hell of fire."

I can see here a reference to the law of righteousness, which Jesus expanded upon.

Just another few questions to help clarify things.

Many Christians do not keep the Saturday Sabbath. Are they lost because they do not obey this commandment?

Many Christians follow society's trends of divorce and marry another. Mark 10:11,12 describes this as adultery. Do you see such people as lost?

I guess the doctrine you follow teaches that there is some kind of limit for Christians to attain perfect obedience to the commandments in the "new law". Can you give details as to what that limit is. Are we forgiven 7x70 per year, for example, and if we can't get it right within a certain time frame then we're lost?

 

[haz]

Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

Good Question, and He has asked the right person, Jesus who came to teach the new covenant.

Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Notice that Jesus says to keep the commandments. That is the good thing that Jesus said should be done in order to have eternal life.

What commandments is Jesus talking about?

Mat 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Mat 19:19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Jesus quotes the 10 commandments.

Note the rest of Matt 19:20,21
.The young man said to Him, “All these things I have kept from my youth. What do I still lack?”21 Jesus said to him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.

Note that the young man kept all the commandment and realized he still lacked.

BUT, the thief on the cross who called Jesus "Lord" followed Jesus and was thus perfected (Heb 10:14).

Moses commanded them by Gods will to obey the commandments if they would enter into the promised land.

Is there a promised land for us?

we have seen that Jesus reiterated the same thing to us, If we would have life keep the commandments.

Physical Israel was an example to the world of how far man could get in regards to righteousness by works of the law.

Christians however, attain righteousness by faith, Rom 4:5.
And what is God's will?
John 6:40
And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day

 

[fredjames]

It seems Jesus simply taught what had already been taught through Moses. This makes sense when you realize that Jesus is the one who Gave Moses the commandments in the first place.

If you read Deuteronomy you will notice that they were to keep the commandments because they were saved from Egypt. notice it was not to be saved but because they were saved.

Have we been saved?

Moses commanded them by Gods will to obey the commandments if they would enter into the promised land.

Is there a promised land for us?

we have seen that Jesus reiterated the same thing to us, If we would have life keep the commandments.

JESUS fullfilled for us what was given by Moses and in lesson we learn the Old reveal that we are all sinners. Apostle Paul did say for without the Ten Commandments, he would not have known about sin. Knowing this of the Old, Apostle Paul struggle in them, the battle of sin, written in Romans chapter 7.

Romans chapter 8, from the beginning he talks about a breakthrough without condemnation, to those who belong to CHRIST. And Verse 2, a New beginning being liberated by the Law of SPIRIT from the Law of sin and death. Verse 3, GOD has done through LORD JESUS CHRIST the Old which was weakened by all flesh and which could not do. Verse 4, in order that the righteous requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, that was the New Testament teachings and instructions of spirit and life, of excellent standards of righteousness from above, given to a New generation, of continous living knowledge spiritual awareness that manifests in faith and in acion Good deeds, even to the point of laying down one's life for his friends. And they initially come from the Head/Leader of all these things, JESUS of Nazareth, our LORD JESUS CHRIST.

And then HE passed them on to the Apostles to do/practice them and pass them in teachings and instructions to all believers and also the church, bringing them all together in 'one' knowledge structural order, rooted to CHRIST, as a witnessing shadow of the Kingdom here on earth as a spiritual family, in order to win and save many.

In the Old testament, the Law and the Prophets has pointed out our sins. So we are soppose to completely bury/give up, by our hearts the old carnal nature that was bound to the Law of sin and death. As a New creation under the LORD JESUS CHRIST, learn and practice the New teachings, words of spirit and life.

One simple beginning example of standards raised by GOD through JESUS and the HOLY SPIRIT and they exceed the righteousness of the Pharisees and are said in these;

"You have heard that it was said (of the Old), You shall love your neighbour and hate your enemy (Pagans). 'But I say to you',.............................................."

Why JESUS used these terms, " 'But' I say to you,............"

That is why in the book of Acts, the dream that Apostle Peter had in Simon's house, in Joppa, about all people of this world are welcomed to the banquet of the Kingdom of GOD.

Lev 19;18, i understand that a Jews neighbour mentioned here are their community/cogregation of Israel, because salvation were only for them and given to them, that they should not hate nor grudge one another, anyone of their own, fellow Israeites and alike, who are in the common religious faith under the Law of Moses. That is why the Israelites were taught to war and posses lands, hate and eliminate everything of their Pagan enemie's. Even to the point, they are cautioned by Moses, not to have anything to do with them or even their practices.

But in the New Testament, salvation is for the whole world. And the teachings and instructions on 'love thy neighbour' standards for especially only believers to follow are broaden, even to allow your ignorant enemies to persecute you, because of GOD's unmerited favour to save them all. These teachings and instructions of laying down one's carnality/self, of JESUS and the Apostles are the very Cross that we are called to carry, that which is said and is written in the New Testament;

"Unless you forget your'self' and carry your own Cross and follow me, you cannot be my disciples."

 

[Hizikyah]

The neighbor is anyone and has always been anyone, saying it only one of the community is what the pharisees did with the command, corrupted them.

You will see Yahweh's Law says not to treat a foreigner wrong, but rather love him as yourself.

Leviticus 19:18, "Do not seek revenge nor bear a grudge against one of your own people; but you shall love your neighbor; whether a brother or an enemy, as yourself. I am Yahweh."

Leviticus 19:34, "The stranger living with you must be treated as one of your native-born, and you shall love him as yourself; for you were strangers in the land of Egypt. I am Yahweh."

And the law of sin and death is the ways of the world, not the Law of Yahweh given through Mosheh:

Romans 7:
"12 Therefore the Law is holy, and the commandments are holy, and just, and righteous.13 Did that which is righteous, then,
become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through that which was righteous, so that through the commandments, sin might become utterly sinful. 14 For we know that the Law is spiritual; but I was carnal, sold into the power of sin."

"25 Thanks be to Yahweh, I have deliverance through Yahshua Messiah our King! So then, with this same mind, I myself serve the Law of Yahweh, while in the flesh that is yet subject to the law of sin."

And you stopped at Romans 8:4, why not read a few more verses?

Romans 8:5-8, "For those who live according to the flesh, set their minds on the things of the flesh; but those who live according to the Spirit, set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against; (bitterly opposed to), Yahweh; for it his not subject to the Law of Yahweh, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are of the flesh cannot please Yahweh."

7:14 For we know that the Law is spiritual; but I was carnal, sold into the power of sin."

Malakyah 4:1-4,"For, behold, the day comes that will burn like an oven; and all the proud, yes, and all who do wickedly, will be stubble--the day that comes will burn them up, says Yahweh of hosts; and it will leave them neither root nor branch. But for you who reverence My Name, the light of righteousness will arise with healing in its wings; and you will go out, leaping like calves released from the stall. And you will tread down the wicked; for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I will do this, says Yahweh of hosts. Remember the Law of Mosheh My servant, which I commanded through him in Horeb for all Israyl, with the statutes and judgments."

 

[tarzan]

Please refer to the Lord as Jesus Christ for everyone's sake. The New Covenant wasn't written in Hebrew as a witness against them.

It is not sin, but what you do is not expedient. Now how is it that everyone has already forgotten? Paul said, "all things are lawful, but not all things are expedient".

These are the works to which the Lord refers when discussing His children's differences. But sin cannot be charged to His children. We are justified. But mistakes can be corrected in us. It is not sin to make a mistake for we are justified by our faith in the Lord.

OP, you are making a mistake. You see, here is the sin: to submit yourself to the works of the law for then there is a cause to sin. So atheists sin in their adherence to moral law, pagans to their rituals, Jews to the old covenant, and so on. For these have yet to receive Christ for their burdens. And they add to themselves burdens, not understanding that if they confirm to their rituals, they cannot have the liberty the Spirit requires to perform God's work. Why else would we be given liberty?

If you are spending your time trying to resist sin, then how are you free to do good? If you think something is sin, then it is TO YOU. If not then it is not, TO YOU. For why should I be convicted of your conscience? Now if what we do causes distress to a brother that he may stumble, then that is not expedient and we shouldn't do it. But then, rather, let the Spirit decide what is proper for a situation. Then how can you possibly sin? But we do make mistakes. Now will the brothers and sisters in Christ continue in such immaturity that they be offended by flesh, or words, or works? Do.not offend, but also, do not be offended.

Now with your children, if you do not teach them law, they will ascribe to other laws as they grow. They must learn WHY they need mercy and grace, and also to learn dignity, respect, honor, truth, intelligence, wisdom, wits, grace, mercy, and when to use their amazing powers of imposition, boldness, stubbornness, and charms for the power of good. Therefore the rod is necessary for their flesh to be in subjection, and God does this also to us to help bring our flesh into submission to His Spirit. Then, being free from law and born into the Spirit of liberty and grace, we then become like the wind - for no one knows from where we came, to where we are going, or exactly what we do, but we do whatever the Spirit wishes, regardless of the judgment of the blind. For why should we be convicted by any other than the Spirit within us? Now at times we may be so ignorant that God uses another. ANY other. The Spirit is not in subjection to us, therefore how much less to those who are ignorant. Now we therefore discern the Spirit of the messenger, not the flesh, neither the Spirit by the errors of the flesh.

When will people learn that God gave so much liberty so that the very lost might be reached?

Who has discerned the heart of God? If I knowing this much have not, then how ignorant are those who strive for righteousness for the comfort of their minds, which only become heavier and heavier until the heart is crushed.

If you learn liberty, then those gifts of the Spirit that people quit believing in, those same begin to manifest as the Lord opens our eyes and causes us to ask for that which He has already decided to give, but that we know He loves us because He allows us to see. Now the righteousness understood from releasing burden and being healed is greater than the righteousness understood from being too heavy and ill, though God does indeed continue to use both for His glory, and we can joy in infirmity then knowing that it is for the Lord.

 

[RedTent]

It seems to me that arguing about the wonderful things God gives us is not right.

When we accept God in our lives, we are given faith in Him, it is how we live, we live through that faith. We humbly thank the Lord, it is the foundation of all we do, no argument.

Through our faith, the loving Lord gives us the Holy Spirit, and this, too, is part of all we do. When we act through the holy spirit, we are perfect and we obey. However, we are human and there are times that we don't act in Christ, but Christ tells us how to handle that.

We are told how to act, think and live, we have wonderful guidance through the word, through the HS, and through our faith. It is called works, and we are blessed with these instructions as they lead to a good life here on earth and away from sin. So why argue about it?

 

[fredjames]

The neighbor is anyone and has always been anyone, saying it only one of the community is what the pharisees did with the command, corrupted them.

You will see Yahweh's Law says not to treat a foreigner wrong, but rather love him as yourself.

Leviticus 19:18, "Do not seek revenge nor bear a grudge against one of your own people; but you shall love your neighbor; whether a brother or an enemy, as yourself. I am Yahweh."

Leviticus 19:34, "The stranger living with you must be treated as one of your native-born, and you shall love him as yourself; for you were strangers in the land of Egypt. I am Yahweh."

And the law of sin and death is the ways of the world, not the Law of Yahweh given through Mosheh:

Romans 7:
"12 Therefore the Law is holy, and the commandments are holy, and just, and righteous.13 Did that which is righteous, then,
become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through that which was righteous, so that through the commandments, sin might become utterly sinful. 14 For we know that the Law is spiritual; but I was carnal, sold into the power of sin."

"25 Thanks be to Yahweh, I have deliverance through Yahshua Messiah our King! So then, with this same mind, I myself serve the Law of Yahweh, while in the flesh that is yet subject to the law of sin."

And you stopped at Romans 8:4, why not read a few more verses?

Romans 8:5-8, "For those who live according to the flesh, set their minds on the things of the flesh; but those who live according to the Spirit, set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against; (bitterly opposed to), Yahweh; for it his not subject to the Law of Yahweh, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are of the flesh cannot please Yahweh."

7:14 For we know that the Law is spiritual; but I was carnal, sold into the power of sin."

Malakyah 4:1-4,"For, behold, the day comes that will burn like an oven; and all the proud, yes, and all who do wickedly, will be stubble--the day that comes will burn them up, says Yahweh of hosts; and it will leave them neither root nor branch. But for you who reverence My Name, the light of righteousness will arise with healing in its wings; and you will go out, leaping like calves released from the stall. And you will tread down the wicked; for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I will do this, says Yahweh of hosts. Remember the Law of Mosheh My servant, which I commanded through him in Horeb for all Israyl, with the statutes and judgments."

Yes all you have quoted is true. In the New Testament as i have led to quote until verse 4, why it is written in verse 2 that the 'Law of the Spirit' (HOLY SPIRIT) of life has set one free in CHRIST JESUS from the 'Law sin and death'.

Why are there two Laws mentioned here? Which is the one to follow as believers to CHRIST.

The Old which is also Spiritual failed in the Jews because the flesh has weakened them. Later GOD spoke about Israel to their chosen Prophet who was crying and pleading on their behalf. GOD said because they burden HIM with their sins and so HE burden them with HIS Laws. This is GOD's Word and not mine and today i am saved with all due respect and in debt to them, also those who have failed and all of them.

It is not about what is written in the Old and what the Pharisees practiced to be failure. It is GOD's will that they will be a failure to them so that HIS plan one day the Gentiles will be included.

Moses who gave all of them in Leviticus and in reminder in Deuteronomy also said to the congregation of Israel before his departure, that a Prophet will come among you and 'all of you must listen to HIM (CHRIST) and those who do not listen to HIM, GOD will acquire of them'.

Moses gave the Law of sin and death according to the Old Covenant and JESUS gave the Law of the Spirit of life according to the New Covenant, that in our practices we will be liberated from carnality and sin. We are for them as the forerunners witnesses to the New Covenant, which has been established by the 'author and perfector of our faith' and by HIS blood GOD makes a New Agreement with us, in order for us who are born from above, also by the HOLY SPIRIT, to run forward to receive that Crown.

When i am called to plow, i am told not to look back by our LORD JESUS CHRIST, according to HIS Words of spirit and life. i may look back but only as Spiritual references, in respect and in debt to the Jews. Before anyone wants to cast a stone at anyone, have we all practiced and witnessed all of them to a dead and condemn world, that all which is written in the New Covenant, before we brag about the Old, which the Jews have lived and witnessed themselves to us written, even today, as Good Spiritual history which man weakened in all of them, again that they themselves who were with GOD from the beginning have failed?

i fail JESUS day by day livng in HIS New established, written Covenant. Anyone here can say they have abide in all of them day by day until today and are excellent in the eyes of the Living GOD?

Then i am a hypocrite and i am no help to anyone in the faith. Why must i carry on and deceive others about a different Jesus and a different spirit?




This is GOD's will and plan and not anyone's, for the entire human race from the beginning to be reconciled in peace and not worldly religion race's which neither here or there.

 

[fredjames]

Peace be with you dearly beloved Hizikyah, thank you for a reference revelation, and may GOD the FATHER of our LORD JESUS CHRIST bless you with HIS kindness and peace.

You have quoted well and please allow me to add that the law of the Old, love thy neighbor is for those who are living in their land and not outside their land. Because those who were with them knew they were very religious in Godliness because of their vast ceremonies, even that which is held in their Temple, according to the teachings of Moses, written in the Old Covenant.

But in the New Covenant, law of the New, love thy neighbor, is for the entire human race in this world. We are the foreigners now in their land.

Today we have made this world our homes, living in its necessities and pleasures and our fruit never ripens, lack in spiritual practice poverty in CHRIST. We have fashioned our'selves' and the church buildings and neglected believers, our family. We have failed to love and nurture our own, according to CHRIST's New Covenant. That is why today, we are so divided, in so many confusing denominations and even in this forum, lacking in spiritual knowledge to the Grace and truth and in everyday practices, in order to inherit the Kingdom of GOD. Yet we are clever to go on with one another and see who falls, to be considered false.

i am not saying this on my own but the LORD who anointed us with the HOLY SPIRIT whom we grieve.

"Your worst enemy will be in you own household."

 

[gotime]

Note the rest of Matt 19:20,21
.The young man said to Him, “All these things I have kept from my youth.What do I still lack?”21 Jesus said to him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.

Note that the young man kept all the commandment and realized he still lacked.

BUT, the thief on the cross who called Jesus "Lord" followed Jesus and was thus perfected (Heb 10:14).




Physical Israel was an example to the world of how far man could get in regards to righteousness by works of the law.

Christians however, attain righteousness by faith, Rom 4:5.
And what is God's will?
John 6:40
And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day

Hi haz,

Did the man really keep all the commandments? the answer is no and I will show you why from the text itself.

Mat 19:20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?


The young man though he had kept all the commandments but Jesus knew otherwise. The key is in what Jesus said before this and after. first what did he say before?

Mat 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Mat 19:19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

notice Jesus mentions the the commandments that have to do with how we treat each other. here is the list from exodus.

Exo 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.
Exo 20:14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
Exo 20:15 Thou shalt not steal.
Exo 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
Exo 20:17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

however you might also notice that Jesus replaces the last one with "do not covet" with "Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself."

We know that "love thy neighbour" is a summery of the last six.

Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Jas 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
Jas 2:9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
Jas 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
Jas 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

So why did Jesus replace "thou shalt not covet" with a summery of the whole law?

The answer is found in Jesus response after the man says he has kept them all.

Mat 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.



Jesus said that to be perfect he should sell all that he had, give it to the poor and follow Him. In other word Jesus is pointing out that this man covets and thus has many riches. he is breaking the law of do not covet. The mans response to this confirms this further.

Mat 19:22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

The mans response shows that he was coveting. And he loved his treasure on earth more than Jesus.

by the way his question "what do I still lack" is not a admission to lacking something but rather a self righteous attitude that he was obeying thus how could he be lacking anything. Jesus then shows that he is not obeying at all. The rich man was not obeying and Jesus knew it. And this does not take away from the established fact that Jesus still said and meant:
"but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments".








As to your point on righteousness by works I agree. and as to attaining to righteousness by faith I also agree.

The real issue where we depart is what that righteousness looks like. I believe it looks lake what John said.

1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

this is the premise of what John says after and proves that John does not mean that its simply a label. you are only righteous if you "doeth" action word, righteousness.

The only way to attain to this righteousness is by faith in the death and Resurrection power of Christ.

Let me try to explain, If I try to keep the law in my own strength, I will fail. but If Christ lives in me it is He who does the works. Faith enables the human to take hold of the powerful Grace of Jesus and be transformed by God. only by faith is it possible to keep the law.

 

[gotime]

JESUS fullfilled for us what was given by Moses and in lesson we learn the Old reveal that we are all sinners. Apostle Paul did say for without the Ten Commandments, he would not have known about sin. Knowing this of the Old, Apostle Paul struggle in them, the battle of sin, written in Romans chapter 7.

Romans chapter 8, from the beginning he talks about a breakthrough without condemnation, to those who belong to CHRIST. And Verse 2, a New beginning being liberated by the Law of SPIRIT from the Law of sin and death. Verse 3, GOD has done through LORD JESUS CHRIST the Old which was weakened by all flesh and which could not do. Verse 4, in order that the righteous requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, that was the New Testament teachings and instructions of spirit and life, of excellent standards of righteousness from above, given to a New generation, of continous living knowledge spiritual awareness that manifests in faith and in acion Good deeds, even to the point of laying down one's life for his friends. And they initially come from the Head/Leader of all these things, JESUS of Nazareth, our LORD JESUS CHRIST.

And then HE passed them on to the Apostles to do/practice them and pass them in teachings and instructions to all believers and also the church, bringing them all together in 'one' knowledge structural order, rooted to CHRIST, as a witnessing shadow of the Kingdom here on earth as a spiritual family, in order to win and save many.

In the Old testament, the Law and the Prophets has pointed out our sins. So we are soppose to completely bury/give up, by our hearts the old carnal nature that was bound to the Law of sin and death. As a New creation under the LORD JESUS CHRIST, learn and practice the New teachings, words of spirit and life.

One simple beginning example of standards raised by GOD through JESUS and the HOLY SPIRIT and they exceed the righteousness of the Pharisees and are said in these;

"You have heard that it was said (of the Old), You shall love your neighbour and hate your enemy (Pagans). 'But I say to you',.............................................."

Why JESUS used these terms, " 'But' I say to you,............"

That is why in the book of Acts, the dream that Apostle Peter had in Simon's house, in Joppa, about all people of this world are welcomed to the banquet of the Kingdom of GOD.

Lev 19;18, i understand that a Jews neighbour mentioned here are their community/cogregation of Israel, because salvation were only for them and given to them, that they should not hate nor grudge one another, anyone of their own, fellow Israeites and alike, who are in the common religious faith under the Law of Moses. That is why the Israelites were taught to war and posses lands, hate and eliminate everything of their Pagan enemie's. Even to the point, they are cautioned by Moses, not to have anything to do with them or even their practices.

But in the New Testament, salvation is for the whole world. And the teachings and instructions on 'love thy neighbour' standards for especially only believers to follow are broaden, even to allow your ignorant enemies to persecute you, because of GOD's unmerited favour to save them all. These teachings and instructions of laying down one's carnality/self, of JESUS and the Apostles are the very Cross that we are called to carry, that which is said and is written in the New Testament;

"Unless you forget your'self' and carry your own Cross and follow me, you cannot be my disciples."

Sorry I don't have time to reply to all of this. but as to your point of JEsus saying, But I Say to you. also take note that before that he says "you have heard it said" that is different from "It is written"

Jesus is talking against the traditional teachings said by the teachers of the law concerning the law. not the law itself. The teachers of the law used the law in the wrong way. Thus he does not say it is written. but you have heard it said.

Blessings.

 

[haz]

The rich man was not obeying and Jesus knew it. And this does not take away from the established fact that Jesus still said and meant:
"but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments".

You forget Rom 10:4
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
Rom 3:28
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.
Gal 2:16
knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

Jesus was addressing the young man who sought righteousness by works of the law. When the young man recognized he still lacked in spite of keeping the commandments, that's when Jesus told him ïf you want to be perfect...come follow me".

Paul also started out like that young man (righteousness by works of the law), but he did give up all that he had (self-righteousness) and followed Christ.

Phil 3:6-9
concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ. Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith

Both Paul and that young man were blameless under the law. Their great possessions were righteousness by works of the law.
Both Paul and that young man heard the gospel. Give up your dead works (your great possessions of self-righteousness through works of the law) and come follow Christ/believe on him.

Paul followed Christ.
But the young man held on to his great possessions/dead works.

1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

this is the premise of what John says after and proves that John does not mean that its simply a label. you are only righteous if you "doeth" action word, righteousness.

The only way to attain to this righteousness is by faith in the death and Resurrection power of Christ.

Let me try to explain, If I try to keep the law in my own strength, I will fail. but If Christ lives in me it is He who does the works. Faith enables the human to take hold of the powerful Grace of Jesus and be transformed by God. only by faith is it possible to keep the law.

How do we do righteousness?
1: Righteousness by perfect obedience to the law of righteousness
OR
2: our faith is counted for righteousness Rom 4:5

You claim that physical evidence of doing righteousness by perfect obedience to the law, is what is required.
But such a claim negates Rom 4:5 that our faith is counted for righteousness.

What you have described of the doctrine you follow only further confirms that it is a lukewarm mix of works of the law with grace.

We cannot mix works of the law with grace.
Rom 11:6
And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

 

[gotime]

You forget Rom 10:4
For Christ is theend of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
Rom 3:28
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.
Gal 2:16
knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

Jesus was addressing the young man who sought righteousness by works of the law. When the young man recognized he still lacked in spite of keeping the commandments, that's when Jesus told him ïf you want to be perfect...come follow me".

Paul also started out like that young man (righteousness by works of the law), but he did give up all that he had (self-righteousness) and followed Christ.

Phil 3:6-9
concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ. Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith

Both Paul and that young man were blameless under the law. Their great possessions were righteousness by works of the law.
Both Paul and that young man heard the gospel. Give up your dead works (your great possessions of self-righteousness through works of the law) and come follow Christ/believe on him.

Paul followed Christ.
But the young man held on to his great possessions/dead works.





How do we do righteousness?
1: Righteousness by perfect obedience to the law of righteousness
OR
2: our faith is counted for righteousness Rom 4:5

You claim that physical evidence of doing righteousness by perfect obedience to the law, is what is required.
But such a claim negates Rom 4:5 that our faith is counted for righteousness.

What you have described of the doctrine you follow only further confirms that it is a lukewarm mix of works of the law with grace.

We cannot mix works of the law with grace.
Rom 11:6
And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

well I am done, Have you noticed that I address the immediate context of the scriptures you use and you don't address the immediate context of the scriptures I use. I find this fruitless.

After all I have written you still have no idea what I believe at all. that is clear from your posts.

time to agree to disagree. I prefer the freedom Christ has given me. when I was a slave without Christ I had no freedom from sin. Now in Christ I am free and the works of the devil are destroyed. praise God through Jesus Christ. His yoke is indeed light.

 

[fredjames]

Sorry I don't have time to reply to all of this. but as to your point of JEsus saying, But I Say to you. also take note that before that he says "you have heard it said" that is different from "It is written"

Jesus is talking against the traditional teachings said by the teachers of the law concerning the law. not the law itself. The teachers of the law used the law in the wrong way. Thus he does not say it is written. but you have heard it said.

Blessings.

Peace be with you and well said, beloved gotime. So now we all know JESUS is establisher and the giver of the New Covenant, which consist of the Law of the SPIRIT of Life.

Have you and i and others as the church, 'abide/keep/continue/etc' in;

" 'But' I say to you, ..........................................." (excel in the practices of the New Covenant of spirit and life)

You and i and others and the church, do not have to answer to each other, but to LORD JESUS CHRIST of the New Covenant.

It is not about who can quote better than the other, and yes, one can, but are we all obediently lawful in all of them, as to 'abide'?

Or are we in bits and pieces here or neither there, in 'Lawlessness'?

"Ever learning but never come in knowledge to the truth."

We are in the gifts of the HOLY SPIRIT in teaching others, but we who remain in the flesh, find it difficult to teach our'selves'.

Thank you, and may the Good GOD, the FATHER of our LORD JESUS CHRIST bless you.

 

[gotime]

Peace be with you and well said, beloved gotime. So now we all know JESUS is establisher and the giver of the New Covenant, which consist of the Law of the SPIRIT of Life.

Have you and i and others as the church, 'abide/keep/continue/etc' in;

" 'But' I say to you, ..........................................." (excel in the practices of the New Covenant of spirit and life)

You and i and others and the church, do not have to answer to each other, but to LORD JESUS CHRIST of the New Covenant.

It is not about who can quote better than the other, and yes, one can, but are we all obediently lawful in all of them, as to 'abide'?

Or are we in bits and pieces here or neither there, in 'Lawlessness'?

"Ever learning but never come in knowledge to the truth."

We are in the gifts of the HOLY SPIRIT in teaching others, but we who remain in the flesh, find it difficult to teach our'selves'.

Thank you, and may the Good GOD, the FATHER of our LORD JESUS CHRIST bless you.

blessings to you.

Abiding in Christ is the key. when we do that we will bear much fruit. If I do not obey just the same as Christ obeyed then I am simply not abiding or allowing Christ to abide in me.

If I am dead to self and Christ abides/lives in me, then will Christ sin? God forbid.

But rather the life I live now I live by faith in the son of God who gave himself for me. Thus I will boast only in Christ because he does the works. praise the Lord.

If I continue to sin then I am either not submitted to Him or I have yet to have the faith of Jesus. For once I am dead and Christ rules my life then His works and only His will be seen. but if sin remains then I am not yet dead. as it is written, unto Him who is able to keep us from falling. therefor I will boast in Christ and him crucified.

blessings

 

[fredjames]

Please forgive me, you mean to say, you do not sin at all in the New Covenant? Or it is just a confession of faith?

"Faith alone without works are dead."

Matthew 7;24 - "Everyone then who hears this words of mine and 'does them' ....................................."

 

[gotime]

Please forgive me, you mean to say, you do not sin at all in the New Covenant? Or it is just a confession of faith?

"Faith alone without works are dead."

Matthew 7;24 - "Everyone then who hears this words of mine and 'does them' ....................................."

lets put it this way.

two men were convicted as criminals and sold as slaves for life. They were forced by their master to fight in fight clubs to make the master money.

Then one day a rich man came and saw them and took pity on them. He offered to pay for their freedom. They both eagerly accepted the offer, so the rich man paid a large price to free these slaves.

ten years down the track the rich man came to see how they were doing.

They both thanked the rich man for paying the price for their freedom. The first man spoke of his new life without fighting or crime. yet the rich man noticed on the other men some bruises on his face and asked, "tell me where did these bruises come from"
The man replied "I got hit in the last fight match"

The Rich man asked again, "why were you in a fight"
The man replied "My Master told me too, I did not want to but when I wanted to do good I could not because my master made me do it".

The Rich man looked at Him and said, "did I not pay the price for your freedom"

The man replied, "Yes and I am so thankful you did so that I am no longer a slave"

By which the rich man replied, "Foolish man, do you not know that to whom you give yourself to obey you are a slave to the one you obey"

The man looking shocked said "But I don't fight as much as I used to".

The rich mans face looked at him with sorrow as He said "when I make you free you shall be free indeed".

 

[2Thewaters]

I have found that reading the Bible helps us understand the Bible when we pray.
Jesus wants us to study our Bibles, and search them as if they are eternal life. We will ever find truth there and find where we have been in error.
Study and read
read and study
and you will find the truth

if you get a concordance they are fun
you look up a word and you see lots of lists of verses with the same word
that is the best way to find what the word really means
how God has used that word many times before.

REad REad REad

The little book of colossians is a VERY GOOD READING.
short
sweet
and Paul tells the church how it is and how they should behave.

and he gives the church hope that their dead relatives who are asleep in the earth will at the resurection come up to be with them for eternity

2 thessalonians also a very short book and also good story of the resurection soon to come.

I lke the new living Bible
and the king james, and compare them.

 

[2Thewaters]

Spiritualizing away I am not sure what that means.
What the bible says, will happen it is very simple.
f it goes against what I believe, then I must change my belief cause it was wrong

the odds of everyone in every other church being all wrong and only me being right on all points is foolishness

I am in the wrong most likely
I am only just over age and it is not conceivable that I am right on everything and everyone else is wrong.

does that make sense?
Why am I right and everyone else is wrong?
that is silly

I am likely wrong and need to read the Bible to find what I am wrong about then CHANGE MY MIND to be right

it is very simple
dont need to spiritualize I need to change...
believe like Jesus

if you havent even read your Bible than it is silly to think you are right.

makes sense?
read your Bible
I like the new living version along with the king james version.

 

[2Thewaters]

that means some doctrines I have been taught in my church are wrong.
and I need to change my mind on them when I find out the Bible does not teach them
simple
everyone has to do it
every disciple that met Jesus was all wrong
he said follow ME
change your mind
they were always trying to get JEsus to follow what the pharisees told him.
they were wrong
Jesus was right
he said no
follow me follow Gods word ignore the leaders who are wrong and accept the leaders who are right
there are some who are wrong
and some who are right
how can you tell?
read the Bible
follow JEsus that is how to tell.

if some one tries to show you a Bible text showing yo are wrong
it is your OBLIGATION to read the entire BOOK that verse is founded in
for inevitably you will find that verse was not talking at all about what that verse was being used for
the enemies favorite trick is to twist verses

they take a verse and say it means this
when it does not

read the BOOK
the entire BOOK
and pray and you will uncover the deceptions

 

[richardharmon]

I found my God by reading the bible. I was down and could see no good thing. Someone had misinterpreted my motives and it hurt a lot, the situation made it appear like it was my fault... I wondered where God was so I thought to find him. I read my Bible through and it changed my whole life. I had read the Bible before because my parents are christians, but this time I was looking for Jesus, and I found him when I ran into the middle of the bible. I am simple and young but never do anything anymore without prayer. It is a wonderful relationship. When I read your post, I knew there could be friends here who really believe the bible and I hope to be an encouragement here to others to do so.