Messianic Christians?

Elin · May 10, 2014

What does Calvin have to do with it?

Scripture states in 1Kgs 4:21, 24-25 that the land promised was fulfilled.

Do you believe 1Kgs 4:21, 24-25 that they possessed the land to the boundaries promised to Abraham?

MsSpratt · May 10, 2014

crossnote said:

is the church age the time between the old testament and the millennium? why is it different from the old testament and the millennium?

i don't know what is a tribulation gentiles who made it through. i thought everybody who takes the mark doesn't make it. but i know i have to learn more on it. thanks for the articles, i'm reading the other one again tomorrow (time to go to work).
i really still am mixed up.

how can there be anybody in the millennium kingdom in a normal body like Fruchtenbaum said the gentile kings were but david wasn't

Jesus answered, "Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.

"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.

Jesus isn't saying come in to people that aren't saved, is he?

sorry for misunderstanding about that part. you said, Fruchtenbaum is referring to the Tribulational Gentiles (those who made it through) not those in the Church where they have equal status. but he said gentiles are not israel, even saved ones. so i don't get it. gentiles are gentiles. did he say outright that there's no difference in the kingdom? or does he mean israel the nation is the head over everyone including the gentiles of the church? it might be true, but i don't know where to find it. i don't even know enough to have this discussion...sorry

ty for being patient

MsSpratt · May 10, 2014

Linda70 said:

so,Linda, is that what the millennium kingdom is for, to fulfill the land promise? because what other promise is there? i read that david is going to be a king and there will be gentile kings and normal bodies and resurrected bodies, which makes no sense (to me). like, are you saying that for the covenant with abrham to be fulfilled there needs to be a temple again and as someone else wrote memorial ordinacnes from the covenant with moses?

because i don't see how you have memorial ordinaces without it being the laws of moses again. just tell me straight - does the bible say after the church age there is going to be a kingdom like israel had in the old testament with all the things from the law? which means we are going back to the old covenant??? please just keep it simple for me. tell me where i can read it in the new testament. ty. plaese

crossnote · May 10, 2014

Elin said:

Yes I believe those verses but the land promise is an everlasting promise even if they get displaced as prophecied and then return as prophecied.

I will make my promise to you and your descendants for generations to come as an everlasting promise. I will be your God and the God of your descendants. I am also giving this land where you are living-all of Canaan-to you and your descendants as your permanent possession. And I will be your God." (Gen 17:7-8)
I'm not sure what you are trying to get at with the NT passages.

Elin · May 10, 2014

Linda70 said:

Linda,

My participation in the Bible Discussion Forum here shows that my interest is in Biblical apostolic teaching.

"Reformed" or "Dispensational" or "Covenant" or whatever have nothing to do with it.

I simply examine what is presented, in the light of the NT spoken by the Son in these
last days (Heb 1:1-2) through the NT writers.

And Paul makes very clear in v. 2 that God did not reject his people that he foreknew,
and in v. 5, as well as in 9:27, that God's irrevocable call and gifts are being fulfilled
in a remnant, in the church (vv. 16-23).

There is no NT apostolic teaching that God's irrevocable call and gifts to Israel will be fulfilled
in any other way than in the church as they are now.

crossnote · May 10, 2014

MsSpratt said:

Church age is from the Cross to the rapture.
After the rapture the Kingdom agenda resumes (Daniel's 7th week) of 7years) and God begins dealing directly once again with the Jews (Jacob's Trouble, Great Tribulation).
I believe you're right, anyone taking the mark wont make it (but some believe they can repent; an argument from silence).
Jesus was still offering the Kingdom when he spoke to Nicodemus but He ceased the offer in Matt 12 after Israel officially rejected their King and hence the Kingdom.

"
"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.
Jesus isn't saying come in to people that aren't saved, is he?"

Jesus is saying the above to the Gentiles who had faith ,displaying their faith by helping Jews (feeding, visiting in prison, cup of water etc.) during the Great Tribulation. They get into the Kingdom by faith nevertheless.

I think he actually says that the Church (made up of Jews and Gentiles gathered during this age) will co-reign with Christ over the Kingdom saints at least those who were saved (Jew and Gentile) during the Tribulation. Don't quote me though.
Remember Fruchtenbaum and other teachers may be a great help but they are not the last word and must also be checked out with Scripture. Acts 17:11

Elin · May 10, 2014

crossnote said:

Heb 11:13-16 addresses that issue.

Yes, God's promise is everlasting, he will never withdraw it as long as the covenant is in force.

But you omitted the conditions on which the covenant depended to remain in force:
God's part in v. 4, "As for me," to be their God, and
their part in v. 9, "As for you," total consecration, as symbolized by circumcision.

Heb 11:13-16 explains the fulfillment of that covenant.

Linda70 · May 10, 2014

MsSpratt said:

The fulfillment of God's promises and covenants to the nation of Israel is one of the purposes of the Millennial Kingdom. In addition to that, at the end of the 1,000 years when Satan is loosed from the bottomless pit, there will be many (as the sand of the sea) who follow him in a final rebellion before Satan is cast into the lake of fire. That rebellion will prove that man's heart is evil (Jeremiah 17:9-10) even without the presence of Satan during the 1,000 years.

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Revelation 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Revelation 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

There will be a Millennial Temple build...Ezekiel 40-48 and the very presence of God will dwell there (in Christ).

Galatians2-20 · May 10, 2014

The reason why Jews who believe in Jesus prefer to call themselves Messianic instead of Christian is simply because all of the evil that has been done to the Jews over the centuries in the name of Christianity. Most Jews believe Christians to be lascivious hypocrites (and with good merit to do so) thus Jews who embrace Christ try to distance themselves from that stereotype.

crossnote · May 10, 2014

Elin said:

Sorry, I take the Abrahamic Covenant to be unconditional. Meaning that even if there are conditions within God will still unconditionally unilaterally fulfill them.

VCO · May 10, 2014

Macie said:

One of the first things that hit me was "Wow..this is so deep." All the Hebrew words and concepts...it put a whole new twist on things. As far as the understand the OT to understanding the NT...that was a foreign concept. I was always taught that the OT was the past and the NT was what stood for today. Whereas, in the Messianic Church, the OT was where the main teachings were found. The first time I went with my stepdad, their teachings just blew me away with how in depth they were. I'm not quite sure about the whole thing because it's very different from the Baptist, but I really do think there is a lot to gain from the Messianic. I just have to get used to it. It also amazed me how they would take from the OT and connect the dots to the NT...which I was never taught that and how everything is related. I think it's going to take some getting used to but I think I'm going to like it...i'm just not completely sure yet.

Dr. Zola Levitt, gave me a great deal of understanding about our Jewish roots before the LORD called Him home. Perhaps these videos will help:

ZLM Video Series: “The Seven Feasts of Israel”

Linda70 · May 10, 2014

VCO said:

I used to have Zola Levitt's booklet "The Seven Feasts of Israel"....but I believe you can find parts of that booklet online on their website. I haven't seen the video, but I plan to watch it shortly. I used to watch Zola on TV...he was always singing from that boat on the sea of Galilee.

Timeline · May 11, 2014

Larry_Stotle said:

This rather long but an interesting read regarding Jesus' lineage:

From James Tabor - Dr. James Tabor is Chair of the Department of Religious Studies at the University of North Carolina at Charlotte where he is professor of Christian origins and ancient Judaism:

So one obvious question is how was Jesus a “son of David”? What do we know of his lineage that might support this claim that he was a part of the royal family of David?

Luke and Matthew give Jesus no human father yet they give different genealogical accounts of his ancestry. Genealogies, or what many Bible readers remember as the lists of “begats,” do not usually make gripping reading, but Jesus’ genealogies are full of surprises.

Matthew begins his book with this genealogy: “Abraham begat Isaac, and Isaac begat Jacob, and Jacob begat Joseph,” and so forth. Since Matthew is the first book of the New Testament, more than a few eager Bible readers have had good intentions dampened by this technical beginning. But let’s look again. Matthew lists forty names, all the way from Abraham, who lived a thousand years before David, through David, and down to Joseph, husband of Mary. But there are two surprises.

Any standard Jewish genealogy at the time was based solely on the male lineage, which was of primary importance. One’s father was the significant factor in the cultural world in which Jesus was born. Yet in Matthew we find four women mentioned, connected to four of the forty male names listed. This is completely irregular and unexpected. Luke records:

Judah fathered Perez and Zerah from Tamar (v.3)

Salmon fathered Boaz from Rahab (v. 5)

Boaz fathered Obed from Ruth (v. 5)

David fathered Solomon from Uriah’s wife (v. 5)

These are all women’s names, or in the case of Uriah’s wife, an unnamed woman.....

At the end of the list, the very last name in the very last line, the other shoe drops. Matthew surely intends to startle, catching the reader unawares. He writes:

Jacob fathered Joseph, the husband of Mary;

from her was fathered Jesus called Christ.

What one would expect in any standard male genealogy would be:

Jacob fathered Joseph;

Joseph fathered Jesus, called the Christ.

Matthew uses the verb “fathered” or “begot” (Greek gennao) thirty-nine times in the active voice with a masculine subject. But when he comes to Joseph he makes an important shift. He uses the same verb in the passive voice with a feminine object: from her was fathered Jesus. So a fifth woman unexpectedly slips into the list: Mary herself….

But there is yet another remarkable feature of this lineage of Joseph that is vital to the story and should not be missed. Joseph’s branch of David’s family, even though it had supplied all the ancient kings of Judah, had been put under a ban or curse by the prophet Jeremiah. In those last dark days just before the Babylonians destroyed Jerusalem in 586 BC, Jeremiah had made a shocking declaration about Jechoniah, the final reigning king of David’s line: “Write this man down as stripped . . . for none of his seed shall succeed in sitting on the throne of David and ruling in Judah again” (Jeremiah 22:30).[iv] Joseph was a direct descendant of this ill-reputed Jechoniah (Matt 1:11-12).[v]

In effect, it was as if Jeremiah was declaring the covenant that God made with David null and void. At least it might appear that way. Psalm 89, written in the aftermath of these developments, laments: “You have renounced the covenant with your servant; you have defiled his crown in the dust” (Psalm 89:39). Or so it seemed. After all Jechoniah was the last Jewish king of the royal family of David to occupy the throne in the land of Israel. Joseph was of this same line, but as the legal father of Jesus, rather than the biological father, Joseph’s ancestry did not disqualify Jesus’ potential claim to the throne if Jesus could claim descent from David through another branch of the Davidic lineage. But how many “branches” of the Davidic family were there?

Luke’s genealogy provides us with the missing key to understand how Jesus could claim Davidic descent with no biological connection to his adoptive father Joseph. Luke records his genealogy of Jesus in his third chapter. Jesus was 30 years old and had just been baptized by John. Whereas Matthew begins with Abraham and follows the line down to Joseph, Jesus’ adoptive father, Luke begins with Jesus and works backward—all the way back to Adam! Rather than forty names, as in Matthew, we have seventy-six. There are three striking features in this genealogy.

First, it begins with a surprising qualification. Literally translated it says: “And Jesus was about thirty years [old] when he began, being a son as was supposed of Joseph, of Heli (Luke 3:23).” The Greek is quite terse, but what jumps off the page is the phrase “as was supposed.”[vi] Luke is telling his readers two things: that Joseph was only the “supposed” or “legal” father of Jesus and that Jesus had a grandfather named Heli. According to Matthew Joseph’s father was named Jacob. So who was Heli? The most obvious solution is that he was Mary’s father.[vii] One seldom hears anything about the grandparents of Jesus, but Jesus had two grandfathers, one from Joseph and the other from Mary. Two grandfathers mean two separate family trees. What we have in Luke 3:23-38 is the other side of Jesus’ family, traced through his actual bloodline from his mother Mary. The reason Mary is not named is that Luke abides by convention and includes only males in his list. Since Luke acknowledges no biological father for Jesus he begins with Joseph as a “stand-in” but qualifies things with the phrase “as was supposed.” A freely paraphrased translation would go like this: “And Jesus was about thirty years old when he began his work, supposedly being a son of Joseph but actually being of the line of Heli.” If Mary’s parents were indeed named Joachim and Anna, as early Christian tradition holds, it is possible that Heli is short for the name Eliakim, which in turn is a form of the traditional name Joachim.

It is unlikely that Luke simply concocted such a detailed record. Jewish families were quite zealous about genealogical records—all the more so if one was descended from the line of David. Josephus, the Jewish historian of that period, traces his own priestly genealogy with obvious pride and mentions archival records that he had consulted.[viii] Julius Africanus, an early 3nd century Jewish-Christian writer who lived in Palestine reports that leading Jewish families kept private genealogical records, since Herod and his successors had sought to destroy those that were public. Africanus specifically notes the practice of keeping clandestine family genealogies as characteristic of Jesus’ descendants.[ix] Since the Davidic lineage of Jesus was so important to the early Christians it is likely that Luke had one of these records available to him.

Luke’s genealogy also reveals another important bit of information. Mary, like her husband Joseph, was of the lineage of King David—but with a vital difference. Her connection to David was not through the cursed lineage running back through Jechoniah to David’s son Solomon. Rather she could trace herself back through another of David’s sons, namely Nathan, the brother of Solomon (Luke 3:31). Nathan, like Solomon, was a son of David’s favored wife Bathsheba, but Nathan never occupied the throne and his genealogy accordingly became obscure. He is listed in the biblical record but no descendants are mentioned, in contrast to his brother Solomon (2 Chronicles 3:5). So, according to Luke, Jesus could claim a direct ancestry back to King David through his mother Mary as well. He did not have the “adoptive” claim through his legal father Joseph alone, but also that of David’s actual bloodline.

The name Nazareth, the town where Mary lived, comes from the Hebrew word netzer meaning “branch” or “shoot.”[x] One could loosely translate Nazareth as “Branch Town.” But why would a town have such a strange name? As we have seen, in the time of Jesus it was a tiny village. Its claim to fame was not size or economic prominence but something potentially even more significant. In the Dead Sea Scrolls, written before Jesus’ lifetime, we regularly find the future Messiah or King of Israel described as the “branch of David.”[xi] The term is taken from Isaiah 11 where the Messiah of David’s lineage is called a “Branch.” The term stuck. The later followers of Jesus were called Nazarenes or “Branchites.”[xii] The little village of Nazareth very likely got its name, or perhaps its nickname, because it was known as the place that members of the royal family had settled and were concentrated. It is no surprise that both Mary and Joseph lived there, as each represented different “branches” of the “Branch of David.” The gospels mention other “relatives” of the family that lived there (Mark 6:4). It is entirely possible that most of the inhabitants of “Branch Town” were members of the same extended “Branch” family. The family’s affinity for this area of Galilee continued for centuries. North of Sepphoris, about twelve miles from Nazareth, was a town called Kokhaba or “Star Town.” The term “Star,” like “Branch” is a coded term for the Messiah that is also found in the Dead Sea Scrolls.[xiii] Both Nazareth and Kokhaba were noted well into the 2nd century AD as towns in which families related to Jesus, and thus part of the “royal family,” were concentrated.[xiv]

Finally, the names in Luke that run from King David down to Heli, Mary’s father, offer us some very interesting clues that further explain why this particular Davidic line was uniquely important. There are listed no fewer than six instances of the name we know as Matthew: Matthat, Mattathias (twice), Maath, Matthat, and Mattatha. What is striking is that the name Matthew was one invariably associated with a priestly not a kingly or royal lineage. One of Jesus’ twelve apostles was named Matthew, but he was also called Levi.[xv] Two of the six “Matthews” in Jesus’ lineage were sons of fathers named “Levi.” Josephus, the 1st century Jewish historian, records that his own father, grandfather, great-grandfather, and brother were all named Matthias, and they were all priests of the tribe of Levi from the distinguished priestly family of the Hashmoneans or Maccabees. Ancient Israel was divided into twelve tribes, descendents of the twelve sons of Jacob the grandson of Abraham. The priests of Israel had to be descendents of Aaron, brother of Moses, who was from the tribe of Levi. The kings had to be of the royal lineage of King David, who was of the tribe of Judah. These positions, King and Priest, gave the tribes of Judah and Levi special prominence. But why would there be so many priestly names in a Davidic dynasty?

Remember, when Mary became pregnant and left Nazareth to stay with Elizabeth, mother of John the Baptizer, Luke notes that they were relatives, though he does not say how (Luke 1:36). But he also records that Elizabeth and her husband Zechariah were of the priestly lineage (Luke 1:5). This is further confirmation of the link between Mary’s Davidic family and the priestly tribe of Levi.

It is inconceivable that such a heavy prevalence of Levite or priestly names would be part of Mary’s genealogy unless there was a significant influence from the tribe of Levi merging into this particular royal line of the tribe of Judah. What appears likely is that Mary was of mixed lineage. Luke only names the male line from David down to Mary. But the large number of priestly names indicates that there were likely important Levite women marrying into this Davidic line along the way. It is a pattern that goes all the way back to Aaron, brother of Moses, the very first Israelite priest. Aaron of the tribe of Levi married a princess of the tribe of Judah named Elisheva or Elizabeth (Exodus 6:23).

I understand this verse to mean that Jesus was actually the son of Joseph, which would just mean that (don't be perverted) the Holy Spirit took from Joseph and placed in Mary. I don't know if that is how it was done; God doesn't need to go get something in order to have it. Maybe you could give a "simple" Greek lesson so that I can understand this to say what you say it says.

[SUP]23 [/SUP]When He began His ministry, Jesus Himself was about thirty years of age, being, as was supposed, the son of Joseph

crossnote · May 11, 2014

Timeline said:

If Jesus was actually the son of Joseph then he would have been born with sin and could not be our Savior. Notice the verse says "as was supposed" ...not actually.

VCO · May 11, 2014

MsSpratt said:

May I try to answer your questions? It is one of my favorite subjects.
I believe in letting Scripture itself answer as much as possible, so I will keep my comments brief.

The error most Christian assume to be truth, is that GOD is finished with Israel the Nation.

Luke 1:32-33 (NASB)
[SUP]32 [/SUP] "He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David;
[SUP]33 [/SUP] and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end."

What NATION are David and Jacob associated with? So then, what Nation do you suppose the Lord GOD is giving CHRIST to reign over for a 1000 years?

Revelation 20:2-4 (NKJV)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;
[SUP]3 [/SUP] and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. (There Is the Bride of Christ made up of genuine Believers of the O.T. and N.T.) Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, (There are those who turned to believe in Jesus Christ after He removed the Church from the Earth during the Great Tribulation.) who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

So they are ALL resurrected to reign with HIM as priests (teachers of the people) for a Thousand Years, not in a mortal body, but a glorified body like CHRIST's. And what about the rest of the unbelievers left on earth at the time of CHRIST's Return to reign on the Throne of David?

Revelation 19:21 (NIV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] The rest of them were killed with the sword that came out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.

Christ is the Rider of the White Horse coming down out of Heaven, if you read that whole Chapter you will see that. The sword that came out of His mouth is symbolism for HIS WORD.

Doesn't that leave NO MORTALS LEFT AT ALL? NO, because He sealed from harm 100,000 Mortals from Israel.

Revelation 7:2-12 (NKJV)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea,
[SUP]3 [/SUP] saying, "Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads."
[SUP]4 [/SUP] And I heard the number of those who were sealed.
One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:

[SUP]5 [/SUP] of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand were sealed;
[SUP]6 [/SUP] of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand were sealed;
[SUP]7 [/SUP] of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand were sealed;
[SUP]8 [/SUP] of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand were sealed.

(These are the only mortals sealed to enter the KINGDOM of Christ to repopulate the the earth. And ALL OF THEM are from the Nation ISRAEL.)

[SUP]9 [/SUP] After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude (The Bride of Christ the Church made up of true believers of all time prior to the start of HIS KINGDOM.) which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands,
[SUP]10 [/SUP] and crying out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!"
[SUP]11 [/SUP] All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God,
[SUP]12 [/SUP] saying: "Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom, Thanksgiving and honor and power and might, Be to our God forever and ever. Amen."
Why do I say the O.T. saints are part of the Bride?

True O.T. saints are those who Believed GOD and were willing to submit to Messiah as LORD.
True N.T. saints are those who Believed GOD and were willing to submit to Messiah as LORD.

Genesis 17:7-8 (ASV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee and to thy seed after thee.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land of thy sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

Remember GOD does not lie.

John 1:12-13 (ASV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] But as many as received him, to them gave he the right to become children of God, even to them that believe on his name:
[SUP]13 [/SUP] who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Genesis 17:19 (ESV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] God said, “No, but Sarah your wife shall bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his offspring after him.

1 Chronicles 16:17-18 (ESV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] which he confirmed to Jacob as a statute, to Israel as an everlasting covenant,
[SUP]18 [/SUP] saying, “To you I will give the land of Canaan, as your portion for an inheritance.”

So GOD KEEPS His Promise to the Remnant of Israel, thus the 144,000 will enter the KINGDOM in their mortal bodies to repopulate the Earth after the Great Tribulation. And it will be those children born of the 144,000, that we will be teaching for a Thousand Years. There was a pause between the 69th Week of Daniel and the 70th week of Daniel, that we call the Church Age.

Daniel 9:24-27 (HCSB)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] Seventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city— to bring the rebellion to an end, to put a stop to sin, to wipe away iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most holy place.
[SUP]25 [/SUP] Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince will be seven weeks and 62 weeks. It will be rebuilt with a plaza and a moat, but in difficult times.
[SUP]26 [/SUP] After those 62 weeks the Messiah will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the coming prince will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come with a flood, and until the end there will be war; desolations are decreed.
[SUP]27 [/SUP] He will make a firm covenant with many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and offering. And the abomination of desolation will be on a wing of the temple until the decreed destruction is poured out on the desolator.”

Elin · May 11, 2014

crossnote said:

So what Ge 17:4, 9 states is conditional, you choose to believe is really unconditional.

I'd still like it a whole lot better if this Biblically non-apostolic grand scheme were presented
at least once in the NT epistles, especially when they deal so thoroughly with God's disposition
of the Jews (Ro 11) as a remnant only (Ro 9:27, 11:5).

It is beyond belief for me that the apostles forgot to tell us about this grand scheme,
or plain just did not even know about it.

It is obvious to me that the apostles did not understand in the way you do
the prophetic riddles on which this non-apostolic scheme is based.

Until that non-apostolic hurdle is overcome, this uncertain interpretation of
prophetic riddles has no Biblical standing, particularly in light of the fact that these
riddles can be, and are, validly interpreted by others to mean things entirely different.

And that's not to mention that Heb 11:13-16 explains how the promise to the
patriarchs of an everlasting possession has been fulfilled.

This non-apostolic interpretation of prophetic riddles is just not passing the Biblical "smell" test.

crossnote · May 11, 2014

Elin said:

I'm not sure of your point.I don't claim to be an apostle so of course my interpretation is a non apostolic interpretation.Are you an apostle is your interpretation apostolic? You and I know that both camps have their strengths and weaknesses when it comes to prophecy. I and many other evangelical christians happen to choose the literal approach to Scripture over the allegorical and thus see the promises given to Israel not always coincide with those given to the Church. You have your hermeneutics (and I have spent many years in Reformed / Lutheran; I just don't agree with their amill views) and I have mine and I see it unfruitful nit picking at minutae when eschatology does not hinge on a gotcha verse here and a gotcha verse there, but incorporates all of Scripture.

Elin · May 11, 2014

crossnote said:

Which leaves you with no apostolic interpretation by which to measure your personal interpretation.

But we do have much apostolic doctrine which disagrees with its contra-NT design.

And that's where I will have to leave it. . .enjoying no apostolic doctrinal support.

Elin · May 11, 2014

Linda70 said:

Here's what I said:

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Romans 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

The New Covenant is God's promise to give free blessing to men through Jesus Christ (Jeremiah 31:1-33; Hebrews 8:7-13; 10:9-22). It was given to the nation Israel (Jeremiah 31:1-34), but Christians also share in the spiritual aspects of the New covenant through Christ (Hebrews 8:7-13).
The New covenant with Israel promises that God will restore them to their promised land and give them a new heart to obey Him. This will happen when Jesus returns from Heaven (Romans 11:25-27; Zechariah 13).

The New Covenant was made with the nation of Israel (Jeremiah 31:31).
It will replace the Mosaic covenant (Jeremiah 31:32; Hebrews 10:8-9).
It promises regeneration and cleansing from sin (Jeremiah 31:33-34).
It reaffirms Israel's national security and future kingdom (Jeremiah 31:35-37).
It promises Israel's possession of the land (Jeremiah 32:37,41-44).
It is eternal (Jeremiah 32:40).
It promises God's blessing upon the land (Ezekiel 36:29-30).

Jer 31:35-44 and Eze 36:29-30 are not promises of the new covenant (Heb 8:7-13).

Only Jer 31:31-34 is the new covenant promise, and it contains no physical blessings.

Apostolic teaching presents the New Covenant as being inaugurated (Lk 22:20; 2Co 3:6)
at the death of Jesus, and presents Jesus as its Mediator now (Heb 8:6, 9:15) for all God's people.

"What you said" is contrary to NT apostolic teaching.

Elin · May 11, 2014

MsSpratt said:

ty. so the abrahamic covenant is not the same as the new covenant you posted above.

time to go to work, but i will read up on the abrahamic covenant. is there a good article or two to help me understand it better? and where exactly is it in the old testament (like, in more than one place. can i read about the whole covenant in one place or is it in many places?). and where is it in the new testament, since i know it a lot better than the old?

this part i don't understand

The New Covenant includes Jewish believers in Messiah but thru a temporary phase of unbelief also to Gentiles

wasn't the abrahamic covenant a promise to all the families of the earth? or was that the new covenant? okay. TMI.
nite

and ty.

Both the Abrahamic covenant (Ge 12:3) and the new covenant (Gal 3:28-29) are a promise to both Jews and Gentiles.

Messianic Christians?

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