Does water baptism save us

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peacefulbeliever said:
I don't usually say what I am fixing to say and I rarely get upset with anyone BUT what you said is a total lie and totally against the word of God.

Why would John say that Jesus would baptize in holy Spirit? John lied?

Why do you keep insisting that 1 Cor. 12:13 is speaking of water baptism?
It clearly states - For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body - It does not say - For as by one water are we all baptized into one body
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When one does not accept the foundational text for baptism, John 3:5, then one can also separate elements of baptism.
John 3:5, I Cor 12:13, Rom 6:3-4 are all about the very same thing. It is water baptism with the Holy Spirit. It is also NOT the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. A text as Eph 1:13 is the sealing of the Holy Spirit, the indwelling. Two separate events but in the Church it always followed baptism. A text as Titus 3:5 the washing of regeneration is baptism.
 
mailmandan said:
Acts 10:43 To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins. 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. Began to speak in Acts 11:4 cannot mean said nothing at all yet. That would contradict Acts 10:44.

45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered, 47 "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?

The evidence is overwhelming that these Gentles believed, received the gift of the Holy Spirit, spoke in tongues, and were saved and a part of the body of Christ before water baptism. Certain Jews may have wanted to forbid them from being water baptized because of their unacceptance of the Gentiles, but Peter clearly states that surely no one can refuse.



Acts 11:17-18 - Believed on the Lord Jesus Christ/repentance unto life equates to salvation. Being baptized with the Holy Spirit not only proved to the Jews that God had accepted the Gentiles but had everything to do with the personal salvation of the Gentiles. They believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, (compare with Acts 16:31) God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life, they received the gift of the Holy Spirit, they spoke in tongues, ALL BEFORE WATER BAPTISM. The truth is crystal clear so why do you refuse to accept the truth?


Again, Acts 10:43 - To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins. 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. You need to set aside your bias and harmonize Scripture with Scripture before reaching your conclusion.
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You continue to ignore that Acts 10:44 that "While" does not tell us if it was at the beginning, in the middle or at the end of Peter's speaking. But Acts 11:4,14,15 tells us BY ORDER that the Holy Ghost fell on them as Peter BEGAN to speak.


So when the HG fell upon Cornelius, he had not heard the saving "words" (gospel), Acts 11:14, he had not "worked righteousness" and accepted with God, verse 35, had not had his sins remitted by God in water baptism, v47,48.


Acts 11:15 Peter says Jew and Gentiles are save in "like manner" and there is just one way to be saved. The Jews in Acts 2, the eunuch, the jailer, Lydia, etc in the book of Acts were not baptized with the Holy Spirit so that eliminates this baptism from being the one baptism of Eph 4:5 that saves.
 
peacefulbeliever said:
I don't usually say what I am fixing to say and I rarely get upset with anyone BUT what you said is a total lie and totally against the word of God.

Why would John say that Jesus would baptize in holy Spirit? John lied?

Why do you keep insisting that 1 Cor. 12:13 is speaking of water baptism?
It clearly states - For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body - It does not say - For as by one water are we all baptized into one body
Click to expand...


The false teaching comes from those that try to get rid of, replace water baptism with baptism the Holy Spirit just to get around the biblical teaching of water baptism being necessary to salvation.


SHOW ME THE VERSE THAT PROMISES YOU BAPTISM WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT.


Jn 3:5-------------spirit+++++++++++++ water>>>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
1cor12:13--------spirit++++++++++++++baptized>>>>>>>in the body

How can an honest person NOT see that 1 cor 12:13 and Jn 3:5 are talking about WATER BAPTISM?
 
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And why did Paul water baptize some of the Corinthians, 1 Cor 1:14,16, and they were NOT baptized with the Holy Spirit?
 
Bass the fact is that water baptism does nothing for you, unless your faith is in the work of the cross and even then it is just a ceremony. Celebrating the eternal life that you have found in Christ. The baptism of the Holy Spirit is a touchy subject among evangelicals, it's a no brainer with Pentecostals. The baptism of the Holy Spirit has nothing to do with salvation. In fact you must be saved in order to be baptized in The Holy Spirit.

The problem with this water baptism thing is this, It is in fact saying that the work of the cross did not save you and your work of being baptized did. This is demeaning to the cross and undermines the perfect sacrifice that Jesus gave on the cross. But, people have been taught this since they were old enough to understand speech and it is a difficult thing to unlearn what you have been taught.

Thank God that He is all powerful and can do in ten seconds what would take us years.

Whether you think so or not your salvation is on the cross.
 
SeaBass said:
And why did Paul water baptize some of the Corinthians, 1 Cor 1:14,16, and they were NOT baptized with the Holy Spirit?
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I would have to disagree with you here. All water baptisms are of the Holy Spirit. They cannot be separated. John 3:5 is waterAND the Spirit. these are NOT separate events. Receiving the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is separate is not not the act of baptism.
 
Kerry said:
Bass the fact is that water baptism does nothing for you, unless your faith is in the work of the cross and even then it is just a ceremony. Celebrating the eternal life that you have found in Christ. The baptism of the Holy Spirit is a touchy subject among evangelicals, it's a no brainer with Pentecostals. The baptism of the Holy Spirit has nothing to do with salvation. In fact you must be saved in order to be baptized in The Holy Spirit.

The problem with this water baptism thing is this, It is in fact saying that the work of the cross did not save you and your work of being baptized did. This is demeaning to the cross and undermines the perfect sacrifice that Jesus gave on the cross. But, people have been taught this since they were old enough to understand speech and it is a difficult thing to unlearn what you have been taught.

Thank God that He is all powerful and can do in ten seconds what would take us years.

Whether you think so or not your salvation is on the cross.
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Water baptism does nothing for those that do not believe.


Mk 16:16....he that believeth AND is baptized shall be saved. Jesus made belief a prerequisite for baptism.


You keep posting about "work of the cross" saves but evidently you so not understand what the cross is about.


Heb 2:9 Christ died on the cross for every man, so will every man be saved? No! Then why will every man not be saved if the "work of the cross" is enough and all that is needed to be saved?
 
Kerry said:
Bass the fact is that water baptism does nothing for you, unless your faith is in the work of the cross and even then it is just a ceremony. Celebrating the eternal life that you have found in Christ. The baptism of the Holy Spirit is a touchy subject among evangelicals, it's a no brainer with Pentecostals. The baptism of the Holy Spirit has nothing to do with salvation. In fact you must be saved in order to be baptized in The Holy Spirit.

The problem with this water baptism thing is this, It is in fact saying that the work of the cross did not save you and your work of being baptized did. This is demeaning to the cross and undermines the perfect sacrifice that Jesus gave on the cross. But, people have been taught this since they were old enough to understand speech and it is a difficult thing to unlearn what you have been taught.

Thank God that He is all powerful and can do in ten seconds what would take us years.

Whether you think so or not your salvation is on the cross.
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another example of confusion. Salvation is of the Cross. It is salvation FROM death and sin. It is a salvation man has nothing to do with. It is all Christ, it is all Grace, BUT it is a Gift given to every single human being.

This Work of Christ on the Cross and by His resurrection, DID NOT GIVE A PERSON ETERNAL LIFE.
Eternal life is by grace as well, BUT ALSO THROUGH FAITH. Baptism (water and the Spirit) in eterance into Christ, just as John 3:5 states. One is being saved to eternal life by the works of your faith. Faith without works is dead, and also no eternal life.
Baptism has NOTHING TO DO WITH SALVATION OF THE CROSS. It has EVERYTHING to do with attaining eternal life.
 
peacefulbeliever said:
All Christians do start out as babes in Christ. . . .some grow and some do not.

All Christians do walk according to the flesh [carnally] at times; don't want to but we do. Are you saying that there aren't envying, strife and divisions in the 'church' today? Basically, it is just like it was then.

I apply all the church epistles directly to the 'church' the body of Christ.
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The problem is that not everything in the epistles applies to every church or Christian. We have to use context to see what applies to who or when. For instance,
KJV
1 John 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; [SUP]2[/SUP] (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;) (1Jo 1:1 KJV)

In this passage the "we" is the apostles not all Christians. Not all Christians have touched Jesus.
 
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You got it backwards salvation is by faith in the work of the cross and nothing you did or do. Why did Job say I know my redeemer lives if all he had to was to get baptized. Baptism is nothing with out the cross, Baptism is a show of faith in the cross. Being dunked in water is a symbol of His death and raised from the water is a symbol of His Resurrection. Your faith is in the wrong place. Faith in baptism is self righteousness, Faith in the cross is faith in God, because you didn't do it, He did.
 
Cassian said:
When one does not accept the foundational text for baptism, John 3:5, then one can also separate elements of baptism.
John 3:5, I Cor 12:13, Rom 6:3-4 are all about the very same thing. It is water baptism with the Holy Spirit. It is also NOT the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. A text as Eph 1:13 is the sealing of the Holy Spirit, the indwelling. Two separate events but in the Church it always followed baptism. A text as Titus 3:5 the washing of regeneration is baptism.
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The foundational text for baptism John 3:5 is foundational text for the new birth, being born again. It is fully speaking of birth and is fully understandable in the context.

For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body >>>> spirit [the only way to become part of the body is to be born again of the Spirit] 1 Cor. 12:13

Romans 6:3-4 - Is a spiritual reality of what it is to be born again - water is symoblic of what happened spiritually

I haven't mentioned Ephesians 1:13 but it goes along with baptism with the holy Spirit for when we are baptized with holy Spirit - we are sealed.

Titus 3:5 - washing of regeneration - you know the word for regeneration is paliggenesia (comes from palin meaning a new, again A. renewal and from genesis meaning source, origin - used of birth) 1. new birth, reproduction, renewal, re-creation - washing of new birth, renewal and renewing, to make new of/by the holy Spirit - - - -each and every verse has to do with the baptism of the holy Spirit.

John 3:5 I am just going to deal with the literal meaning here in the context:

water >>>>> That which is born of the flesh is flesh. (3:6) physical birth
spirit >>>>>> That which is born of the Spirit is spirit (3:6) new birth, i.e. spiritual birth

Romans 6:3,4

water >>>>>> symbolic of Christ's death and resurrection
spirit >>>>>> the reality of Christ's death and resurrection - the promise of holy Spirit

water >>>>>> not mentioned
spirit >>>>>> sealed until the day of redemption

Titus 3:5

water >>>>> not mentioned
spirit >>>>> by the washing of regeneration [being born again] and renewing [being made new] of/by the holy Spirit

We can then look at it spiritually:

water >>>>>> John truly baptized with water
spirit >>>>>> one coming mightier than I - he will baptize with holy Spirit

water >>>>> spiritual water (water and Spirit)
spirit >>>>>> living water [John 4:10,11; John 7:38,39)

 
Butch5 said:
The problem is that not everything in the epistles applies to every church or Christian. We have to use context to see what applies to who or when. For instance,
KJV
1 John 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; [SUP]2[/SUP] (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;) (1Jo 1:1 KJV)

In this passage the "we" is the apostles not all Christians. Not all Christians have touched Jesus.
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How long did it take you to hunt up somethin? I believe that I said the church epistles were directly related to me - Romans, 1 & 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians Colossians and 1 & 2 Thessalonians -

Nope 1 John 1-3 isn't directly to me although it was written for my learning . . . .

BUT v4 - v10 is written to me. . . . .
 
Cassian said:
I would have to disagree with you here. All water baptisms are of the Holy Spirit. They cannot be separated. John 3:5 is waterAND the Spirit. these are NOT separate events. Receiving the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is separate is not not the act of baptism.
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There is ONE baptism in effect, Eph 4:5. Both 1 Cor 1:14,16 and 1 Cor 12:13 are both water baptism of Christ's great commission. Note that the eunuch Acts 8 was only water baptized, not baptized with the Holy Spirit.

Joel 2:28 Joel prophecied baptism with the Holy Spirit, God's Spirit would be poured out upon all flesh. Peter repeated this prophecy in Acts 2:16,17. Note in v16 Peter tells us the apostles being baptized with the HS is about Joel's prophecy:

But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

This (apostles being bpatized with the HS) is that (Joel's prophecy about baptism with the HS)

The phrase "all flesh" does not mean everyone universally or even animals that have flesh. They saw mankind at that time as made up of two groups, Jews and non-Jews, The only two places in the NT baptism with the HS occurs is Acts 2 with the apostles (Jews) and Acts 10 with the Gentiles. So these two occasions God baptized Jew and Gentile, ie, "all flesh" fulfilling and bring to an end that prophecy of Joel and ended that baptism with the Holy Spirit.


If this baptism with the Holy Spirit is still taking place to day, then Christ was not the Messiah:

Mt 5:17,18 "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Christ took all the OT out of the way (Col 2:14; Heb 10:9) not by destroying it for He loved it and kept it, but He took it out of the way by fulfilling it and replacing it with his NT gospel. Fulfill means to bring to an end, cease. So if the OT law and prophets (including Joel's prophecy of Joel 2:38) has not been fulfilled, then not only was Jesus not the Messiah but the all the OT is still in place (every jot and tittle) and in effect and is to be obeyed by all us today.


Jn 3:5 is one birth/one baptism involving two elements: 1) spirit 2) water.

The role of water is water baptism.

The role of the spirit is the spirit is the author of the word that tells us how we are to be saved and those that accept that word by obeying it are begotten by the word/spirit, James 1:18; 1 Pet 1:23. The HS uses His word to draw men, Jn 6:45, and the word is a seed (Lk 8:11) that is implanted in the heart when one learns, hears and is taught that word. and obediently come to Christ.
 
SeaBass said:
1 Cor 12:13 is water baptism.
Gal 3:14 does not say anything about baptism with the Holy Spirit
Eph 1:13 does not say anything about baptism with the Holy Spirit


Baptism with the Holy Spirit has not been promised to anyone today.
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peacefulbeliever said:
I don't usually say what I am fixing to say and I rarely get upset with anyone BUT what you said is a total lie and totally against the word of God.

Why would John say that Jesus would baptize in holy Spirit? John lied?

Why do you keep insisting that 1 Cor. 12:13 is speaking of water baptism?
It clearly states - For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body - It does not say - For as by one water are we all baptized into one body
Click to expand...

Pretty strong words. Christ is the only one who could administer HS baptism. Guess what, he's not here today. The baptism of the great commission was to last until the end of the ages. No John didn't lie, but did Paul? In Ephesians 4:4 he said that there is one baptism. Baptism of the great commission was water baptism, and you say that Spirit baptism still exist today, so that means there are two baptisms. Apparently Paul lied.
 
As I said it is a very difficult thing to unlearn what you have been taught at your mothers knee. It was difficult for me as well.
 
SeaBass said:
Point me to the post where I say for people to put their trust in a tub or pond.


...just more straw men...smh
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why do you think my posts are about you?

i just think someone ought to be praising God whenever the chance presents itself!

for He is good, and His mercy endures forever! He has poured out His blood to wash us clean, and gave Himself as an atonement, one sacrifice to cover the sins of many. who is like Him!?!?
 
I think they believe more in straw men than what they teach? we keep hearing about straw men and I'm talking about Christ.
 
That straw man preacher must a been good con man. Cause he should have benn preaching the cross and we wouldn't be having this conversation.
 
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