The Sabbath.

[Timeline]

Ah, so then we don't need to worry about having another god before God? We bow to statues and idols? We tak God's name in vain? We break the Sabbath?

Or was Christ pointing something out to this young man?

Matthew 22:34-28
[SUP]34 [/SUP]But when the Pharisees heard that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered themselves together. [SUP]35 [/SUP]One of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, [SUP]36 [/SUP]“Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” [SUP]37 [/SUP]And He said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ [SUP]38 [/SUP]This is the great and foremost commandment. [SUP]39 [/SUP]The second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ [SUP]40 [/SUP]On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”

Romans 13:8-10
Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. [SUP]9 [/SUP]For this, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” [SUP]10 [/SUP]Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Galatians 5:13-15
[SUP]13 [/SUP]For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. [SUP]14 [/SUP]For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” [SUP]15 [/SUP]But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another.

1 John 4:15-21
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. [SUP]16 [/SUP]We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. [SUP]17 [/SUP]By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world. [SUP]18 [/SUP]There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.[SUP]19 [/SUP]We love, because He first loved us. [SUP]20 [/SUP]If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen.[SUP]21 [/SUP]And this commandment we have from Him, that the one who loves God should love his brother also.

1 Corinthians 8:5-6
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, [SUP]6 [/SUP]yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

Hebrews 8:13
When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

It's all covered in the new.

 

[Timeline]

John 5:19-47
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner. [SUP]20 [/SUP]For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself is doing; and the Father will show Him greater works than these, so that you will marvel. [SUP]21 [/SUP]For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes. [SUP]22 [/SUP]For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, [SUP]23 [/SUP]so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.[SUP]24 [/SUP]“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

[SUP]25 [/SUP]Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. [SUP]26 [/SUP]For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself; [SUP]27 [/SUP]and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man. [SUP]28 [/SUP]Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, [SUP]29 [/SUP]and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
[SUP]30 [/SUP]“I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
[SUP]31 [/SUP]“If I alone testify about Myself, My testimony is not true. [SUP]32 [/SUP]There is another who testifies of Me, and I know that the testimony which He gives about Me is true.

[SUP]33 [/SUP]You have sent to John, and he has testified to the truth. [SUP]34 [/SUP]But the testimony which I receive is not from man, but I say these things so that you may be saved. [SUP]35 [/SUP]He was the lamp that was burning and was shining and you were willing to rejoice for a while in his light.

[SUP]36 [/SUP]But the testimony which I have is greater than the testimony of John; for the works which the Father has given Me to accomplish—the very works that I do—testify about Me, that the Father has sent Me.

[SUP]37 [/SUP]And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form. [SUP]38 [/SUP]You do not have His word abiding in you, for you do not believe Him whom He sent.

[SUP]39[/SUP]You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; [SUP]40 [/SUP]and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life. [SUP]41 [/SUP]I do not receive glory from men; [SUP]42 [/SUP]but I know you, that you do not have the love of God in yourselves. [SUP]43 [/SUP]I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, you will receive him. [SUP]44 [/SUP]How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and you do not seek the glory that is from the one and only God? [SUP]45 [/SUP]Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father; the one who accuses you is Moses, in whom you have set your hope. [SUP]46 [/SUP]For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me.


[SUP]47 [/SUP]But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?”


Exodus 31:13
“But as for you, speak to the sons of Israel, saying, ‘You shall surely observe My sabbaths; for this is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the Lord who sanctifies you.

2 Corinthians 3:12-18
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Therefore having such a hope, we use great boldness in our speech, [SUP]13 [/SUP]and are not like Moses, who used to put a veil over his face so that the sons of Israel would not look intently at the end of what was fading away. [SUP]14 [/SUP]But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ. [SUP]15 [/SUP]But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart;[SUP]16 [/SUP]but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. [SUP]18 [/SUP]But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.

Hebrews 8:7-13
[SUP]7 [/SUP]For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second. [SUP]8 [/SUP]For finding fault with them, He says,“Behold, days are coming, says the Lord,
When I will effect a new covenant
With the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers
On the day when I took them by the hand
To lead them out of the land of Egypt;
For they did not continue in My covenant,
And I did not care for them, says the Lord.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]“For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
After those days, says the Lord:
I will put My laws into their minds,
And I will write them on their hearts.
And I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]“And they shall not teach everyone his fellow citizen,
And everyone his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’
For all will know Me,
From the least to the greatest of them.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]“For I will be merciful to their iniquities,
And I will remember their sins no more.”

[SUP]13 [/SUP]When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

 

[Timeline]

I will say that I don't think it is a problem for you to gather for worship on Saturday. I just want you to understand that we are not under the old law. But, being led by the Spirit, we will some of what is in the old law, though not being under it.

Galatians 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.

Romans 4:15 for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation.

Romans 6:1-7
What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? [SUP]2 [/SUP]May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? [SUP]3 [/SUP]Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? [SUP]4 [/SUP]Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. [SUP]5 [/SUP]For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, [SUP]6 [/SUP]knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; [SUP]7 [/SUP]for he who has died is freed from sin.

1 Timothy 1:8-11
[SUP]8 [/SUP]But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully, [SUP]9 [/SUP]realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers[SUP]10 [/SUP]and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching, [SUP]11 [/SUP]according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.

Galatians 5:2-6
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. [SUP]3 [/SUP]And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. [SUP]4 [/SUP]You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. [SUP]5 [/SUP]For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. [SUP]6 [/SUP]For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.

James 2:10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.

Galatians 4:21 Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the law?

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

1 Corinthians 15:56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law;

 

[Timeline]

Yes, the law is good. I did not say that it wasn't. For it serves a purpose, to bring the sinners (referenced above). For how would we know that it was sin unless the law had told us. But the law and the prophets pointed to Jesus and the new covenant of grace. One of my concerns, though everything is in God's hands, it we see grace getting abused from both ends. People think it is too weak to cover their sins. People also think, sometimes (too often) that grace allows them to do whatever it is that they please (which would be okay, if what pleases us also pleases God - but all too often our pleasures do not please God and should be avoided).

 

[Timeline]

Yes, the law is good. I did not say that it wasn't. For it serves a purpose, to bring the sinners (referenced above). For how would we know that it was sin unless the law had told us. But the law and the prophets pointed to Jesus and the new covenant of grace. One of my concerns, though everything is in God's hands, it we see grace getting abused from both ends. People think it is too weak to cover their sins. People also think, sometimes (too often) that grace allows them to do whatever it is that they please (which would be okay, if what pleases us also pleases God - but all too often our pleasures do not please God and should be avoided).

Sentence three - the phrasing was somewhat pulled from Paul. I figured you would know that, but this post is to avoid taking mostly from Paul's words without referencing a scripture.

 

[RedTent]

,. [SUP]46 [/SUP]For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me.
[SUP]47 [/SUP]But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?”

Hebrews 8:7-13
[SUP]10 [/SUP]“For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
After those days, says the Lord:
I will put My laws into their minds,
And I will write them on their hearts.
And I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]“And they shall not teach everyone his fellow citizen,
And everyone his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’
For all will know Me,
From the least to the greatest of them.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]“For I will be merciful to their iniquities,
And I will remember their sins no more.”

[SUP]13 [/SUP]When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing oldis ready to disappear.

Please note that we are to believe in Moses.

Also that the old covenant that promised that we would be rewarded for our works (not that our reward would be salvation) and punished for sin was simply growing old, it had not disappeared. We know when Christ returns, He will establish a new kingdom for us.

There has never been a time on this earth when our works has earned eternal life, that has always been only in God's hands so the reward offered for works cannot be salvation.

 

[Timeline]

Please note that we are to believe in Moses.

Also that the old covenant that promised that we would be rewarded for our works (not that our reward would be salvation) and punished for sin was simply growing old, it had not disappeared. We know when Christ returns, He will establish a new kingdom for us.

There has never been a time on this earth when our works has earned eternal life, that has always been only in God's hands so the reward offered for works cannot be salvation.

Yes, we do believe Moses. Moses and the prophets all pointed to Jesus and the new covenant. And I also believe that our faith leads us to work. I think that dc and eg mean well, but they seem to encourage people to not work, and that is not good. But I have seen others that lean on their works and count on their works to save them. I believe that the neither of these are true, although both are partially true. We do not want to be under the law (because under the law everyone dies), but we also do not want to have a dead faith. I think Noah not building the ark is a great example. A true faith produces works.

 

[Timeline]

Yes, we do believe Moses. Moses and the prophets all pointed to Jesus and the new covenant. And I also believe that our faith leads us to work. I think that dc and eg mean well, but they seem to encourage people to not work, and that is not good. But I have seen others that lean on their works and count on their works to save them. I believe that the neither of these are true, although both are partially true. We do not want to be under the law (because under the law everyone dies), but we also do not want to have a dead faith. I think Noah not building the ark is a great example. A true faith produces works.

Our works do not save us, so that no one will boast. That is a paraphrase, I can look it up.


Ephesians 2:8-10
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; [SUP]9 [/SUP]not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. [SUP]10 [/SUP]For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.



This verse probably says it as good as any.

 

[RedTent]

Yes, we do believe Moses. Moses and the prophets all pointed to Jesus and the new covenant. And I also believe that our faith leads us to work. I think that dc and eg mean well, but they seem to encourage people to not work, and that is not good. But I have seen others that lean on their works and count on their works to save them. I believe that the neither of these are true, although both are partially true. We do not want to be under the law (because under the law everyone dies), but we also do not want to have a dead faith. I think Noah not building the ark is a great example. A true faith produces works.

I have never read a post on cc that said that they worked for salvation, only that someone claimed they did. I have seen many posts that said they believed in doing their best to obey law, but only because Jesus said we should, the HS leads us to, and putting on Christ would result in it.

I would like to see these posts that I have missed saying they can earn their salvation.

 

[Timeline]

I have never read a post on cc that said that they worked for salvation, only that someone claimed they did. I have seen many posts that said they believed in doing their best to obey law, but only because Jesus said we should, the HS leads us to, and putting on Christ would result in it.

I would like to see these posts that I have missed saying they can earn their salvation.

Well, I don't really want to go in the direction of "he said/she said". I will just say that maybe I misunderstood, but will be firm in my belief that we are not under the old law, as I believe we clearly see in the NT.

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

Can you support that with scripture or is that just an opinion of that verse.

i already supported it with scriptural arguments...

throughout the rest of john's writings he always just uses the term 'sabbath' to refer to the sabbath...given john's pattern...it is pretty safe to assume that when john spoke of 'the lord's day' he was not referring to the day he always called 'the sabbath'...

it is also important to note that throughout john's writings he uses the terms 'God' and 'lord' for different purposes...while john understood the trinity...he used the term 'God' strictly to refer to the father...and reserved the term 'lord' to refer strictly to jesus christ in his incarnation... so 'the lord's day' would be some specific day of importance with regard to jesus' incarnation...since the date of jesus' birth is unknown...the only viable alternative would be the day of jesus' resurrection...sunday...

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

I am sorry but you have confused me. In the comment above you said it was only referred to once and in this comment you said John referred to it five times and then you say everyone in the early church...If it was only referred to once how did everyone in the early church know that it meant Sunday.

john wrote five books...his gospel...three letters...and revelation...

in those five books john only uses the term 'the lord's day' once...without any specific explanation of what day he meant...

but we do know that in those five books...every time john wrote about the sabbath...he simply used the term 'the sabbath'...so given john's terminology it is very likely that if john had meant in revelation to refer to the sabbath then he would have simply called it 'the sabbath'...instead of 'the lord's day'...

so 'the lord's day' very likely means some day besides the sabbath...

we know that in the early church 'the lord's day' was understood to mean sunday because we have early christian writings where the term is used in that way...specifically it is used that way by ignatius of antioch and by justin martyr...so this is evidence going back to the late first century and the second century...

significantly ignatius was a student of john...no doubt he had the meaning of the term explained to him by the author himself...

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

Paul's words were a commentary on what, and who already existed.

What did the original words and instructions from God/Jesus say? Then we can find out how Paul's words line up with them and what he is REALLY saying.

And God said His law (including Sabbath) was forever.
Jesus told His disciples to follow the Law forever.

Then anything Paul says HAS to agree with this (and does).

Any interpretation of his words saying anything different than this is a misinterpretation.

the rule is to use the clear passages of scripture to interpret the unclear passages...

jesus very often was deliberately unclear...he himself said that his teaching style was designed to conceal its true meaning from those who were not called...and that confusion was especially evident among the jewish minded listeners...

paul on the other hand was usually very direct...

so when paul makes a direct statement...the meaning should be obvious...and anyone interpreting the words of jesus to mean anything contradictory to paul's direct statements is just misunderstanding what jesus had said in his often obscure teaching style...

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

Why that was a controversy that Polycarp dealt with.

You are making this up, right?

polycarp was involved in the paschal controversy...which was about the proper date for celebrating christ's resurrection...it wasn't about the definition of the term 'the lord's day'

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

Just some questions for you - Do you think God just rested by Himself on the 7th day of creation or do you think Adam and Eve plus the Angels joined Him? Why would God create something bless and sanctify it and make it holy and not continue doing it with Adam and Eve on a weekly basis? Why would it have to be written down when God walked with them in the garden and could lead them by example?

it says God rested on the first sabbath...there is nothing that says adam and eve or anyone else rested...

it says God blessed the sabbath and made it holy...there is nothing that says he gave a command to adam and eve pertaining to its holiness...

to assume that God ordained sabbath keeping for all humanity on the seventh day of creation week is to add to scripture...

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

[TABLE="align: center"]
[TR]
[TD]I apologize this is so long but man made the change God did not command it. I have nothing against our Catholic brothers and sisters and I believe many will be in heaven but the fact still remains they claim to have made the change. Please take the time to read. My bible says I must obey God rather than man.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]

[/TR]
[/TABLE]

so since you accept the roman catholic church's claim that they changed the sabbath without question...i suppose you likewise accept the roman church's claim that the pope is the successor of peter and that we should pray to mary?

i mean that would be the logically consistent thing to do...

 

[chubbena]

it says God rested on the first sabbath...there is nothing that says adam and eve or anyone else rested...

it says God blessed the sabbath and made it holy...there is nothing that says he gave a command to adam and eve pertaining to its holiness...

to assume that God ordained sabbath keeping for all humanity on the seventh day of creation week is to add to scripture...

Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy....For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but He rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

The Lord did not set his affection on you and choose you because you were more numerous than other peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples. But it was because the Lord loved you and kept the oath he swore to your ancestors that he brought you out with a mighty hand and redeemed you from the land of slavery, from the power of Pharaoh king of Egypt. Know therefore that the Lord your God is God; he is the faithful God, keeping his covenant of love to a thousand generations of those who love him and keep his commandments.

Of course, whatever you want it to be you don't need scripture to support. When you said "it's likely", like the Lord's day being Sunday, it must be the truth; whatever you don't want it to be you'd say there's no scripture to support, even when He says to remember.
Of course you have to insist on what you believe because this is how you are trained to believe in and how you live by the system which Paul once was with.

 

[p_rehbein]

........ok, but............

2nd Peter 3:8) But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Given this do we ONLY KEEP THE SABBATH EVERY 7,000 years or so?

 

[Kerry]

........ok, but............

2nd Peter 3:8) But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Given this do we ONLY KEEP THE SABBATH EVERY 7,000 years or so?

What day would that be in China?

 

[mustaphadrink]

The day of the Lord is Sunday read your bible.

I can't find this anywhere in the New Testament so can you help me out?