It Is satanic Heresy to Deny Eternal Security
- Thread starter Atwood
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Yes for when one believes trully they will act upon that faith , like when a woman or even a man falls in love they will surely find out what the other likes and adjust to that persons expectation . But in the kingdoms case there is one standard not like the human realm but a higher existence true standards of everlasting peace , I seen heaven I seen hell I seen a glimpse of the lake of fire I tell you Jesus is real , I even seen my Lord several times , I been liberated on one of these occasions but I tell you Jesus is coming soon better get it right now and stop that Osas and any doctrine that denies Jesus His holy Ghost or even the spiritual circumsision all of these are damnable
The disagreements are really not that great. At this point I won't bother to paste a bunch of material on textual criticism.
But I will give my opinion as a person who reads the Greek NT and has studied textual criticism a little, though I don't consider myself an expert on it:
This theory of a binary nature of majority vs minority is not generally accepted. When one says, "majority" here, one is referring to the fact that the latest medieval mss are obviously way larger in number than the most ancient mss. I think that by late medieval times, the Eastern Byzantine ecclesiastics had standardized a form of the Greek text, and copied it over and over. To me all that type of text generally counts as 1 rather late witness.
But I am sure that today the majority text is that published by the United Bible Societies, based upon comparing all the data, which may be called "the eclectic text." It is majority because churned out by "printing presses"! It is generally accepted that texts come in families, groups that agree more with each other, suggesting a common ancestor. Of course the actual degree of difference is basically slight, most variations being things like spelling. I believe they copied by one person reading outloud and another writing, sometimes.
My principles include
1) prefer the oldest reading,
2) prefer the reading supported by numerous families to one supported by just one family,
3) prefer the reading which does not lead to doctrinal contradictions.
4) use number of texts cautiously.
I recommend more on this at BibleAndTheology.com. I guess I could go there, copy and paste here. The NT I use in Greek has a textual apparatus, that is, the significant or important variations are listed in footnotes. I evaluate each variation separately.
The significance to this thread is basically that one should not try to prove any doctrine from the apocryphal story in John 8, which really has nothing to do with eternal security anyway.
But I will give my opinion as a person who reads the Greek NT and has studied textual criticism a little, though I don't consider myself an expert on it:
This theory of a binary nature of majority vs minority is not generally accepted. When one says, "majority" here, one is referring to the fact that the latest medieval mss are obviously way larger in number than the most ancient mss. I think that by late medieval times, the Eastern Byzantine ecclesiastics had standardized a form of the Greek text, and copied it over and over. To me all that type of text generally counts as 1 rather late witness.
But I am sure that today the majority text is that published by the United Bible Societies, based upon comparing all the data, which may be called "the eclectic text." It is majority because churned out by "printing presses"! It is generally accepted that texts come in families, groups that agree more with each other, suggesting a common ancestor. Of course the actual degree of difference is basically slight, most variations being things like spelling. I believe they copied by one person reading outloud and another writing, sometimes.
My principles include
1) prefer the oldest reading,
2) prefer the reading supported by numerous families to one supported by just one family,
3) prefer the reading which does not lead to doctrinal contradictions.
4) use number of texts cautiously.
I recommend more on this at BibleAndTheology.com. I guess I could go there, copy and paste here. The NT I use in Greek has a textual apparatus, that is, the significant or important variations are listed in footnotes. I evaluate each variation separately.
The significance to this thread is basically that one should not try to prove any doctrine from the apocryphal story in John 8, which really has nothing to do with eternal security anyway.
Atwood, all the quatations you use are addressed to members of Churches. Churches appeared when apostols laid hands on the believers (giving them Holy Spirit). And apostols tought own disciples (members of the Churches) and executed them (in case of need, as Paul commanded to do with adulterous christian). And christians gained apostolic teaching (approach of interpritating the Scriptures) and verbal apostolic tradition (information to be hold and passed in verbal form).
And also the strict commandment to curse anyone (even an angel) who will try to bring different Gospel (=teaching also) to christians.
And now you not beeing a members of true church (found by apostols and kept hierarhy from apostolic times) using the Holy Scriptures (addressed to the members of Church) are trying to teach believers to different teaching (the simple way to salvation). And also using the Scriptures you are proclaiming yourselves to be the Holy Catholic Church (though neither original apostolic approach, nor apostolic verbal tradition, nor the Spirit through the link of interrupted hierarhy you posses).
And doing it you are sincerely expect to be placed in paradise together with saints and true members of churches.
Paul would burnt suсh impostors without much disscussions (since claiming yourselve as Holy Church you put yourselves under the apostolic judgement).
Same thing will surely do with you the last inquisitor - wittness of the Lord - Elijah.
For you are offending truth with your false teaching and seducing people to follow your mad self-constucted illussion directed to hell.
And also the strict commandment to curse anyone (even an angel) who will try to bring different Gospel (=teaching also) to christians.
And now you not beeing a members of true church (found by apostols and kept hierarhy from apostolic times) using the Holy Scriptures (addressed to the members of Church) are trying to teach believers to different teaching (the simple way to salvation). And also using the Scriptures you are proclaiming yourselves to be the Holy Catholic Church (though neither original apostolic approach, nor apostolic verbal tradition, nor the Spirit through the link of interrupted hierarhy you posses).
And doing it you are sincerely expect to be placed in paradise together with saints and true members of churches.
Paul would burnt suсh impostors without much disscussions (since claiming yourselve as Holy Church you put yourselves under the apostolic judgement).
Same thing will surely do with you the last inquisitor - wittness of the Lord - Elijah.
For you are offending truth with your false teaching and seducing people to follow your mad self-constucted illussion directed to hell.
Last edited:
Atwood, First, thanks for your thoughts, the more we talk the more I enjoy our conversations.
With that being said these were hand written papyrus. When you look at thousands in agreement that is amazing.
When I am deciding what scripture is true I use these methods. Do the papyrus agree with each other? and this other one is big. Where were they found?.. "Patmos, what what?!"
Monastic Archives: Manuscripts from Mount Athos and Patmos in 'Pandektis' digital repository | ΕΠΣΕΤ
With that being said these were hand written papyrus. When you look at thousands in agreement that is amazing.
When I am deciding what scripture is true I use these methods. Do the papyrus agree with each other? and this other one is big. Where were they found?.. "Patmos, what what?!"
Monastic Archives: Manuscripts from Mount Athos and Patmos in 'Pandektis' digital repository | ΕΠΣΕΤ
Roman church also have fell in heresy (starting with fillioque changing of the initial creed). But it is known from the begining (since apostolic times) that the wittness of Lord Elijah-prophet will be the last bishop of Rome under name of Peter II.
That is why during whole the time of almost of two thousands years not a single pope was dare to take the apostolic name.
In time of initial unity Peter lead Roman church (and Paul joined the cathedra). And in the last time Elijah will be bishop of Rome under name of Peter II. And Enoch will join him in Vatican.
So they togerther will gather last Eight (truly ecumenical) council. And the initial unity of Church will be restored under authority of Roman bishop.
I am not catholic (orthodox). Still I know it as part of apostolic tradition.
If you doubt in me (as in source of information) inquire Catholic cardinal about the matter.
The words of Lord will be implemented upon last leaders of Roman Church [h=3]Matthew 16:18[/h]King James Version (KJV)
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
It is not a wisper, but a part of verbal apostolic tradition.
No matter who trust it, and who does not.
Do you suppose Elijah to be peacefull preacher????
When the earth will be filled with burnt human corpses (of them who will be burnt by him [h=3]Revelation 11:5), then christians will trust to the witnesses and not to the false teachers of newly-made illussive doctrines.[/h]
No matter who trust it, and who does not.
Do you suppose Elijah to be peacefull preacher????
When the earth will be filled with burnt human corpses (of them who will be burnt by him [h=3]Revelation 11:5), then christians will trust to the witnesses and not to the false teachers of newly-made illussive doctrines.[/h]
well I don't know what an apostolic tradition is. But my bible says the witnesses will only harm their enemies who wish to do them harm.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
Well, I appreciate you being civil in your response to me. If it makes you feel any better, my preacher is on the same page and quoted the same verses in John. But I don't think that God will be too upset with me if I am wrong when I understand Jesus to be the Son of God. Like I said, there are more verses than one that suggest plural and more verses than one that suggest One God. I don't think that it is grounds for calling someone a heretic (as you seem to somewhat agree, in this post). I do believe that we accept Jesus and God at the same time because you cannot truly accept God without accepting Jesus. And you cannot accept Jesus and deny God.
I can't remember if I wrote this last time or not. But there is a verse that says that God cannot be tempted. And another that says Jesus was tempted. I don't know Greek, so I am not sure if this was translated properly. If one of them isn't exactly right, I know it would be the one that says Jesus was tempted. Because I know that God cannot be tempted.
I can't remember if I wrote this last time or not. But there is a verse that says that God cannot be tempted. And another that says Jesus was tempted. I don't know Greek, so I am not sure if this was translated properly. If one of them isn't exactly right, I know it would be the one that says Jesus was tempted. Because I know that God cannot be tempted.
Look, the word ONLY = is your own addition to the verses. For it is not written ONLY THEM. The verse just give explanation o how the security of the witnesses will be provided in times of the rul of antichrist.
But, modern realities are such, that the way of the witness to the destined for him tiara will be directly implemented upon thousands and thousands of corpses, of burnt enemies of christianity and of the witness.
No wonder that you unaware about verbal apostolic tradition. Outside of church the Written Scriptures is only known source. But the verbal tradition (the ancient verbal teaching laid in apostolic times) is superior over the Holy Scriptures itselves.
And whosoever false teacher now is dare to interpritate the Scriptures and manipulate by the verses in support for whatsoever perverted heresy (perishable to human soul).
While it is also known from the begining that Devil himself likes to use the Holy Scriptures for own sedusive attempts:
Matthew 4:6
New International Version (NIV)
6 “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written:
“‘He will command his angels concerning you,
and they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’[a]”
But, modern realities are such, that the way of the witness to the destined for him tiara will be directly implemented upon thousands and thousands of corpses, of burnt enemies of christianity and of the witness.
No wonder that you unaware about verbal apostolic tradition. Outside of church the Written Scriptures is only known source. But the verbal tradition (the ancient verbal teaching laid in apostolic times) is superior over the Holy Scriptures itselves.
And whosoever false teacher now is dare to interpritate the Scriptures and manipulate by the verses in support for whatsoever perverted heresy (perishable to human soul).
While it is also known from the begining that Devil himself likes to use the Holy Scriptures for own sedusive attempts:
Matthew 4:6
New International Version (NIV)
6 “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written:
“‘He will command his angels concerning you,
and they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’[a]”
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
nowhere does this mention anything like what you describe. This verse is ONLY addressing men who will hurt them/ their enemies. This verse actually states who it is aimed at.
Second your apostolistic verbal tradition is superior to the scriptures? that is ridiculous and quite frankly appalling. Where do you get these "verbal traditions?" the vatican?
nowhere does this mention anything like what you describe. This verse is ONLY addressing men who will hurt them/ their enemies. This verse actually states who it is aimed at.
Second your apostolistic verbal tradition is superior to the scriptures? that is ridiculous and quite frankly appalling. Where do you get these "verbal traditions?" the vatican?
No way. Ridiculous is the fact that protestants having no apostolic teaching consider themselves to be members of Holy Catholic Church.
All the true churches (eastern orthodox) and the recognised western church (Roman Catholic) posses the verbal tradition.
It is part of orthodox teaching. And we know it is even more importent part than even the Holy Scriptures.
It is basic and superior source of christian knowledge. And all the doctrin (of true church) and all the dogmats (sealed by Seven Ecumenical councils) of Holy confession are formed ONLY UPON THE VERBAL APOSTOLIC TRADITION (as the basic informational source).
All the ancient practices (including holy icon, and hagiolatry) are made in accordence with initial verbal apostolic tradition. As well as ancient hymnography and etc.
It is the core of true genuine christianity.
All the true interpritations of the Scriptures are corresponded to the verbal tradition.
The apostols of Jesus left not only the NT but the basic christian approach (concerning the Scriptures) and prophessies about events to come.
One of the main detail, is information about last papacy of Elijah-prophet under name of Peter II, and about the last - Eight Ecumenical Council (all the councils which Roman church claimed to be ecumenical orthodox society does not admit).
Roman church has fell away from the tradition. But it kept the part of tradition (and admit the tradition itselv). And in the last times Rome will be restored in it.
And out of the tradition we also know that Elijah prophet will be concentrated upon jews (mostly by the bloody methods which he is used to do - 2 Kings 1:12).
While Enoch will bring whole majority of the true christians (jentels) beck to the original true christianity (orthodox confession)
All the true churches (eastern orthodox) and the recognised western church (Roman Catholic) posses the verbal tradition.
It is part of orthodox teaching. And we know it is even more importent part than even the Holy Scriptures.
It is basic and superior source of christian knowledge. And all the doctrin (of true church) and all the dogmats (sealed by Seven Ecumenical councils) of Holy confession are formed ONLY UPON THE VERBAL APOSTOLIC TRADITION (as the basic informational source).
All the ancient practices (including holy icon, and hagiolatry) are made in accordence with initial verbal apostolic tradition. As well as ancient hymnography and etc.
It is the core of true genuine christianity.
All the true interpritations of the Scriptures are corresponded to the verbal tradition.
The apostols of Jesus left not only the NT but the basic christian approach (concerning the Scriptures) and prophessies about events to come.
One of the main detail, is information about last papacy of Elijah-prophet under name of Peter II, and about the last - Eight Ecumenical Council (all the councils which Roman church claimed to be ecumenical orthodox society does not admit).
Roman church has fell away from the tradition. But it kept the part of tradition (and admit the tradition itselv). And in the last times Rome will be restored in it.
And out of the tradition we also know that Elijah prophet will be concentrated upon jews (mostly by the bloody methods which he is used to do - 2 Kings 1:12).
While Enoch will bring whole majority of the true christians (jentels) beck to the original true christianity (orthodox confession)
Last edited: