Christianity in Europe vs the States

[tyrone19]

I live out here in the England, and it is a well known fact that Christianity is dying out here. It's being lost with the older generation. Churches nowadays are filled with older people, and there are few younger people to bring some vibrancy and energy. So, it is easy to understand how difficult it is becoming to actually become a Christian, and to grow in the faith. I don't know, it seems like society here is set up to remove genuine Christianity (not Catholicism, Mormonism etc) from the picture. Recently, laws have been passed in support of gay marriage and apparently everyone is either atheist or agnostic, well in my generation anyway (mid to late teens).

I am just wondering how it is in the US, seeing as most of the memebers of this website that I have come across are from the the States. Is the faith dying over there too? What is being done to combat if it is? Especially in the younger generation?

Also please keep places like here in your prayers. Christian persecution is not only violent like it is in Africa; it is sometimes more subtle (ostracisation, demonisation of religion generally so the one true religion is also hated etc).

 

[faroukfarouk]

Faith is Godward (John 3.16); it's not primarily a social thing at all.

 

[Simona25]

Although there are genuine christians everywhere (including the Western countries), there is no such thing as "genuine Christianity" in the West (whether catholic, protestant or neoprotestant).

Christianity in West is based on a pagan idea of justice. Augustin, Anselm of Canterbury and Thomas Aquinas are responsible for this pagan influence in Christianity. Anselm (bishop of Canterbury) said in his work Cur Deus Homo(Why the God-Man?) that Adam, by sinning in the Garden of Eden, offended God. And this offense required a sacrifice (an atonement). But a mere human being could not give satisfaction to God's offense because the human being is lower in dignity than God, hence the need of the incarnation of God the Son in the man Jesus Christ (who is both God and man). This pagan belief was never formulated by the Eastern Orthodox Church. This is why the Eastern Church called itself "orthodox" because orthodox means the correct doctrine (in other words, the correct understanding of God).

Agnosticism and eventually atheism are a response against the western understanding of God.

 

[cinder]

Although there are genuine christians everywhere (including the Western countries), there is no such thing as "genuine Christianity" in the West (whether catholic, protestant or neoprotestant).

Christianity in West is based on a pagan idea of justice. Augustin, Anselm of Canterbury and Thomas Aquinas are responsible for this pagan influence in Christianity. Anselm (bishop of Canterbury) said in his work Cur Deus Homo(Why the God-Man?) that Adam, by sinning in the Garden of Eden, offended God. And this offense required a sacrifice (an atonement). But a mere human being could not give satisfaction to God's offense because the human being is lower in dignity than God, hence the need of the incarnation of God the Son in the man Jesus Christ (who is both God and man). This pagan belief was never formulated by the Eastern Orthodox Church. This is why the Eastern Church called itself "orthodox" because orthodox means the correct doctrine (in other words, the correct understanding of God).

Agnosticism and eventually atheism are a response against the western understanding of God.

Interesting point, but as you haven't really pointed out why justice is a pagan concept or what the Orthodox believe and how it is different from "Wester Christians." All you really communicate is "I'm right and you are wrong." I have to admit that the few orthodox churches I've been in I have found to have a rather unsettling atmosphere, but whether that is just the strangeness of something different or if there is something spiritual going on is too subjective to debate.

As for the OP, yes some of the militant atheist crap coming from English intellectuals is disturbing and to think that over the past 100 or 120 years they have also produced some of the great christian thinkers (Chesterton and CS Lewis come to mind). One thing it is interesting to note is that the philosophy of atheism was born almost entirely out of Christian nations. I hold the personal opinion that this is partly because we lived so long under the protection of God that it was easy to forget about spiritual realities and think we did everything by ourselves. Also interesting to look up statistics on the 10/40 window ( that was the term they used to use to describe the least christian part of the world) to see how being with and without Christ appears to affect nations.

At the heart of most of the attacks on religion you will find that people have 2 issues 1) they object to God's right to be in charge 2) they doubt God's ability to reveal himself understandably to people . This usually leads them to conclude that all religion is man made and therefore not trustworthy. But since it was well over 100 years ago that Nitzche(?) proclaimed God is dead, this is a philosophical swing that has been coming for a long time. This is nothing new however. A great book to read is We don't Speak Great Things We Live them published by Scroll publishing. It's a modernized copy of 2 of the oldest Christian writing after the Bible but what I found was that it was a most modern book talking about such things as evolution, moral living, and abortion even though the documents were written during roman empire days.

As far as what it is like in the USA, I think there is still a definite Christian subculture but most statistics show that the vast majority of young people raised in the church are leaving. I think things also differ greatly from city to small town and in the US in different regions. You can see plenty of people on here complaining about US churches so I don't need to get into the problems, but I think throughout the Western world Christianity is losing ground, but in Africa, Asia, and Latin America things are gaining momentum. It will be interesting to see how things develop in our lifetime.

 

[doseofreality]

As part of the younger generation in the States and as a former believer I will say that yes it does seem that more young people are leaving the church.

The "Non-religious" demographic is the largest growing group currently in the U.S. but the majority is still religious, mostly Christian.

 

[Simona25]

Interesting point, but as you haven't really pointed out why justice is a pagan concept or what the Orthodox believe and how it is different from "Western Christians." All you really communicate is "I'm right and you are wrong."

This is a short video that explains the protestant view on salvation, on one hand and the orthodox view of salvation on the other hand:

[video=youtube;WosgwLekgn8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WosgwLekgn8[/video]

 

[Kingdom_Mystic]

This is a short video that explains the protestant view on salvation, on one hand and the orthodox view of salvation on the other hand:

[video=youtube;WosgwLekgn8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WosgwLekgn8[/video]

I love the Orthodox view of salvation which does not have the have the heavy influence of Augustine. Christ came to restore God's image in us that we may live up to the high calling of our relationship to the Father through Holy Spirit's power because are called to be His children in Christ.

 

[Simona25]

Interesting point, but as you haven't really pointed out why justice is a pagan concept

Because it is contrary to what Christ revealed to us. He revealed to us in so many occasions that the justice of God is goodness and love, not revenge. A God that can not forgive unless somebody "pays for the insult that Adam brought to Him in the Garden Eden" looks nothing like the father of the prodigal son, a father that is so quick in forgiving and forgetting what the son did. This is the justice of God: forgiveness and love, not vendetta. Aristotle, who was a Greek pagan philosopher, said that only a low man, a slave, does not respond to insults. But, our Lord, thought us something completely different: that we should turn the other cheek when someone offends us. And that's what He did on the cross: He loved us. It was love that held Christ on the cross, not the necessity of satisfying God's honor, but love. This is how Christ wants us to love our neighbors and those that offend us: like He loved us on the cross. We must die to ourselves, to our egoism and love the others, like Christ did.

 

[cinder]

This is a short video that explains the protestant view on salvation, on one hand and the orthodox view of salvation on the other hand:

Excellent video. I can agree with about 90% of what he said on both sides (at first watching and realizing that it is a simplified illustration). But does it bother anyone else that this guy could give 2 different views of what salvation is and barely mention in a passing fashion the need for repentance and to turn from sin in either one?

Because it is contrary to what Christ revealed to us. He revealed to us in so many occasions that the justice of God is goodness and love, not revenge. A God that can not forgive unless somebody "pays for the insult that Adam brought to Him in the Garden Eden" looks nothing like the father of the prodigal son, a father that is so quick in forgiving and forgetting what the son did. This is the justice of God: forgiveness and love, not vendetta. Aristotle, who was a Greek pagan philosopher, said that only a low man, a slave, does not respond to insults. But, our Lord, thought us something completely different: that we should turn the other cheek when someone offends us. And that's what He did on the cross: He loved us. It was love that held Christ on the cross, not the necessity of satisfying God's honor, but love. This is how Christ wants us to love our neighbors and those that offend us: like He loved us on the cross. We must die to ourselves, to our egoism and love the others, like Christ did.

Hmmm. God is most definitely concerned about his honor and glory (but that is a topic for another time). As far as vengeance goes Deuteronomy 32:35 has God saying "I will take revenge; I will pay them back. In due time their feet will slip. Their day of disaster will arrive, and their destiny will overtake them." (In context this seems to be talking about the enemies of Israel)

Also see Isaiah 61:2 "to proclaim the year of the LORD’s favor and the day of vengeance of our God, to comfort all who mourn" (interestingly when Jesus quoted this in Luke 4 he left off the part about vengeance, perhaps because everyone expected messiah to overthrow the romans and create a political kingdom). We cannot deny that justice and vengeance are a part of God's character (there's more in psalms and throughout the prophets about the desire to have God avenge his people especially when they have been treated wrongly).

But there's one very interesting verse in James 2:12-13: Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment. (I did a little research and that word translated triumphs can also be translated exalts, boasts against, or glories over.) So I think we can conclude that there still is judgement, and if judgement then justice to be meted out, but mercy is superior and now under Christ (this was written to followers of Christ) we receive it by showing it.

I guess one other thing to share is a "quote" (I read it a while ago but I'm paraphrasing) about the cross: The cross is not about what God did to Jesus. The cross is about God, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit conspiring to rescue us.

Thank you for explaining your point of view further. I can definitely agree with you that as God's people we are called to show mercy and also that God's desire is to restore not condemn or destroy. Beyond that I think we should probably leave this very interesting rabbit trail ( or take it to PM) before we completely hijack the OP's thread.

 

[clarkthompson]

I feel this problem has already started in the US.

 

[Simona25]

Excellent video. I can agree with about 90% of what he said on both sides (at first watching and realizing that it is a simplified illustration). But does it bother anyone else that this guy could give 2 different views of what salvation is and barely mention in a passing fashion the need for repentance and to turn from sin in either one?

In Protestantism, the words sin and repentance have a moral and juridical conotation. Sin is an act by which you transgress a divine law and repentance means to regret the bad that you did and ask God for forgiveness and turn from sin.

In Orthodoxy the words sin and repentance are more charged. They have an ontological meaning. Sin is not so about bad and good, but about death and life. The word sin (gr. hamartia) literally means to alienate yourself from life, from your purpose, from God, the verb "to sin" means to go on a different path, a path that leads to failure. Repentance means to change your mind (meta-noia), your perspective on who you are, on life, God etc...Repentance is to realize who you really are (a sinner) and also realise what you are meant to become.

Hmmm. God is most definitely concerned about his honor and glory (but that is a topic for another time).

I started a thread named The River of Fire - how the occident has perverted God's love. It's a very long thread but it explains why the biblical idea of justice/righteousness have been understood in a pagan way by the Western Christianity. When you have time, you can read. I translated from Romanian to English the essay/work (entitled The River of Fire) of a greek orthodox christian. I stopped with the translation exactly at the point when he says that many may argue the Orthodox view by quoting the same Bible verses as you did below. I hope I can finish today my (poor) translation.

As far as vengeance goes Deuteronomy 32:35 has God saying "I will take revenge; I will pay them back. In due time their feet will slip. Their day of disaster will arrive, and their destiny will overtake them." (In context this seems to be talking about the enemies of Israel)

Also see Isaiah 61:2 "to proclaim the year of the LORD’s favor and the day of vengeance of our God, to comfort all who mourn" (interestingly when Jesus quoted this in Luke 4 he left off the part about vengeance, perhaps because everyone expected messiah to overthrow the romans and create a political kingdom). We cannot deny that justice and vengeance are a part of God's character (there's more in psalms and throughout the prophets about the desire to have God avenge his people especially when they have been treated wrongly).

But there's one very interesting verse in James 2:12-13: Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment. (I did a little research and that word translated triumphs can also be translated exalts, boasts against, or glories over.) So I think we can conclude that there still is judgement, and if judgement then justice to be meted out, but mercy is superior and now under Christ (this was written to followers of Christ) we receive it by showing it.)

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

Many futurist Bible scholars assert that we are living in the prelude before the great apostasy the apostle Paul asserted in 2 Thessalonians 2:3.

First comes the great falling away which corresponds to what we observe occurring in Europe and the U.S. (though other places in the world are experiencing revival) presently as the setup to the great apostasy as the man of lawlessness (e.g. the son of perdition) is revealed.

If the futurists are correct, those atheists and agnostics who have neglected, rejected, and/or strove against the one true God as revealed in the Bible will get religion eventually. Unfortunately, it will be that of the anti-Christ and spell their spiritual eternal doom.

But we are not comprised of that material instead reborn by and fashioned of better things by the one true living creator God revealed in scripture . Our future is heaven. The time between now and there is difficult for some genuine Christians, however. I understand. Trust me when I say that I understand.

I live out here in the England, and it is a well known fact that Christianity is dying out here. It's being lost with the older generation. Churches nowadays are filled with older people, and there are few younger people to bring some vibrancy and energy. So, it is easy to understand how difficult it is becoming to actually become a Christian, and to grow in the faith. I don't know, it seems like society here is set up to remove genuine Christianity (not Catholicism, Mormonism etc) from the picture. Recently, laws have been passed in support of gay marriage and apparently everyone is either atheist or agnostic, well in my generation anyway (mid to late teens).

I am just wondering how it is in the US, seeing as most of the memebers of this website that I have come across are from the the States. Is the faith dying over there too? What is being done to combat if it is? Especially in the younger generation?

Also please keep places like here in your prayers. Christian persecution is not only violent like it is in Africa; it is sometimes more subtle (ostracisation, demonisation of religion generally so the one true religion is also hated etc).

 

[TheAristocat]

I live out here in the England, and it is a well known fact that Christianity is dying out here. It's being lost with the older generation. Churches nowadays are filled with older people, and there are few younger people to bring some vibrancy and energy. So, it is easy to understand how difficult it is becoming to actually become a Christian, and to grow in the faith. I don't know, it seems like society here is set up to remove genuine Christianity (not Catholicism, Mormonism etc) from the picture. Recently, laws have been passed in support of gay marriage and apparently everyone is either atheist or agnostic, well in my generation anyway (mid to late teens).

I am just wondering how it is in the US, seeing as most of the memebers of this website that I have come across are from the the States. Is the faith dying over there too? What is being done to combat if it is? Especially in the younger generation?

Also please keep places like here in your prayers. Christian persecution is not only violent like it is in Africa; it is sometimes more subtle (ostracisation, demonisation of religion generally so the one true religion is also hated etc).

Depends on which part of the country you're talking about. There is a place in the states known as the Bible Belt. I lived in it for a couple of years, and there were a lot of Christians there. I remember walking down the sidewalk once and seeing a group of black people who started shouting praises to God. haha I thought it was cool. But, yeah, unfortunately the thing with the USA is that it is a state of immigrants. We get people from all around the globe. So the more of the world that goes godless the more of an effect it will have on us as well.

But thankfully in China Christianity is beginning to blossom (and China has the largest population of any nation on Earth). It's spreading so fast that the government's taking steps to slow its spread. And I'm feeling some of those effects first hand here. Overall I would say that in the USA Christianity is holding even or is on a steady but slow decline. It's not something that's new and interesting. And a lot of people feel that it's not compatible with the revelations afforded us by science. But I would definitely say that Archaeology and my own personal experiences have helped me keep my focus on it. It's just unfortunate that for the majority of people they do not have my experiences, and they have not researched it as I have. A lot of teens, for instance, would say that Jesus never even existed.

Part of what may be helping Christianity spread so fast in China is the persecution of Christians here. It's not really serious. You have people losing their jobs and being sent to jail for a few days or even being relocated to a different city. At worst it's depressing and a big hassle. But not exactly life-threatening. But, still, it sends a message to the world that these people are different and they have convictions, which are hard to come by in our safe, bland and meaningless modern societies.

 

[maxwel]

If you think Christianity is doing fine in the U.S.,
just poke around CC a bit and look at all the bizarre beliefs.

 

[TheAristocat]

If you think Christianity is doing fine in the U.S.,
just poke around CC a bit and look at all the bizarre beliefs.

Heheh What matters most is the Gospel. If someone believes in that they're doing pretty well for living in such a sin-stricken world.

 

[oldernotwiser]

thank you theotokos. i am protestant with a strong element of anabaptist theology in my personal theological mix and that has been my "emotional" position for many years. you have helped me to put that emotion into words.the god of lukes gospel is certainly more merciful than we are. part of this developed over the past ten years while working on a manuscript on the cross. i have a few chapters on The Cross, in History, Heraldry, and Legend - The Cross in History, Heraldry, and Legend and would love to hear what you think of them.

 

[Desdichado]

Certain geographical regions of the United States maintain a cultural Christianity that includes many sincere adherents. Particularly the Midwest and former CSA.

These seem to be the last strongholds of Christianity in the West.

I'm inclined to agree with Simona25 to a certain extent, that part of our problem stems from acceptance of pagan thought.

 

[jos]

i live in belgium, so in the hearth of europe. i witness that, in my school, 0 on 1000 students in high school are religious. christianity is seriously dying here. if i have to go to church with my parents, i can only see old people in a almost empty church. the ones who still believe a bit, don't go to church at all, don't read the bible and mostly don't even pray. their believing is just: 'god is there, but i don't really care, he doesn't desides my life'.

 

[Callmebadger]

i live in belgium, so in the hearth of europe. i witness that, in my school, 0 on 1000 students in high school are religious. christianity is seriously dying here. if i have to go to church with my parents, i can only see old people in a almost empty church. the ones who still believe a bit, don't go to church at all, don't read the bible and mostly don't even pray. their believing is just: 'god is there, but i don't really care, he doesn't desides my life'.

Then it looks like you have a lot of work to do.

 

[jos]

by this i invite you, Callmebadger, to come over and help me.
but at the other side, why would i try to change the way those people think about life?
i would also not like it if they would try it with me.