It Is satanic Heresy to Deny Eternal Security

[Cassian]

I have been reading the Bible over and over times beyond counting since I was a teenager. I even studied it in Greek and Hebrew. I took a Bible one year and read from cover to cover marking all the passages on salvation, including any claimed by persons who do not agree with me. Now how many times have you read it through? Have you marked all the passages?

it is all a waste because you are depending on man's interpretation of a text that has been extracted from its source, its authority, and context. Why would you think you or any man coud get it correct. Even those through history who were actually taught the Gospel, thought that they could interpret the text on their own and everyone of them were declared heretical. Man, including you will never change the Gospel of Christ.

But let's be real. The reason why I don't believe as you do is because the Bible is my final authority and not your religious organization. You believe as you do because your organization says so.

which is not in the Bible. Alas, a sola scripturists using a principle that is not found in scripture. And quite obviously scripture IS NOT your authority. If scripture had authority in itself, I would think it would give the very same understanding every single time. Yet we have thousands of interpretations all upon just one Book the Bible. So, it cannot be a reliable authority that is for sure. But it is more likely that it is man's authority that is imposed on the the text.

So why continue as you are?

I have been explaining an unchanging Gospel. You have adopted man made theories and now claim that scripture is your authority which every sola scripturist claims but yet comes up with different interpretations.

You need to prove that your source of authority is infallible and that it is the actual Church of Christ.

Is Christ infallible? Is the Holy Spirit infallible? Those are my authorities. The ONLY authorities. Christ is Head of the Body, the Body enlivened by the Holy Spirit is the pillar and ground of Truth. I Tim 3:15
The Holy Spirit entrusted the Gospel to the Apostles, John 14: 26, John 16:13. The apostles were the foundation of that Church that began at Pentecost and has existed ever since in this world, and in the original cities it was brought to in the first century. Christ had not abandoned His Church, nor has the Holy Spirit permitted man to impose his ideas upon it.
You can check the historical record for the consistant faith from the beginning as well as its existence.

 

[newbirth]

If does not mean "if and only if."

Since eternal security implies that Christians are secure in their salvation forever, then they continue in the faith.

Philippians 1:6
And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

The letter to the Philippians is not written to take one verse to prove a point...
[SUP]3 [/SUP]I thank my God upon every remembrance of you,
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Always in every prayer of mine for you all making request with joy,
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now;

[SUP]6 [/SUP]Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Even as it is meet for me to think this of you all, because I have you in my heart; inasmuch as both in my bonds, and in the defence and confirmation of the gospel, ye all are partakers of my grace.

[SUP]8 [/SUP]For God is my record, how greatly I long after you all in the bowels of Jesus Christ.

[SUP]9 [/SUP]And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment;
[SUP]10 [/SUP]That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

I hope you see why Paul has confidence in them and not you he doesn’t know you ... You my friend like everyone else have to become like them for these words to pertain to you. And The scripture say if you continue meaning it's your choice. But continuing is what it takes to get to...


to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

Stop bending the gospel to suit doctrine of man.You bend to suit the gospel

 

[Atwood]

Originally Posted by Atwood

If does not mean "if and only if."

Since eternal security implies that Christians are secure in their salvation forever, then they continue in the faith.

Philippians 1:6
And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

The letter to the Philippians is not written to take one verse to prove a point...

The Lord Jesus quoted individual verses to prove his points -- see Mat 4. You have the Bible; you are certainly encouraged to check the context of anything I quote to you.

[SUP]6 [/SUP]Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

There is nothing in the context to nullify the plain implication of this verse; and on the contrary, there are many passages that confirm it.

Stop bending the gospel to suit doctrine of man. You bend to suit the gospel

Stop contradicting the gospel hindering persons from dependence on the Savior. Nothing is bent. You are urged actually to trust the Lord Jesus with your future -- place yourself totally in His hands as a wretched sinner, unable to keep yourself -- but He is able. I could quote all of Romans, but let this suffice for the moment:

End of Rom 8:
And we know that to them that love God all things work together for good, even to them that are called according to his purpose. For whom
he foreknew,
he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: and whom
he foreordained, them
he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom
he justified, them
he also glorified.

31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? 3He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not also with him freely give us all things? Who shall lay anything to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth; who is he that condemneth? It is Christ Jesus that died, yea rather, that was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or anguish, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Even as it is written,
For thy sake we are killed all the day long;
We were accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

 

[Atwood]

it is all a waste because you are depending on man's interpretation of a text that has been extracted from its source, its authority, and context. Why would you think you or any man coud get it correct.

What makes you think that a child of God doesn't understand God's Word? My sheep hear my voice! Those who fail to believe it can be rebuked for being slow of heart. You follow the path of the Pharisees who put man's tradition above the word of God and were soundly rebuked for it.

Now you go on sneering at sola scriptura. But you don't prove that you have something other than the Bible which is God's Word and readily available to men in general. Prove you have it, or cease sneering.

If scripture had authority in itself, I would think it would give the very same understanding every single time. Yet we have thousands of interpretations all upon just one Book the Bible. So, it cannot be a reliable authority that is for sure.

You remind me of the serpent who said, "Yea, hath God said."
The Word of God is the reliable authority as the Lord and the apostles affirm. There were many interpretations when the NT was written, but the Lord Jesus and the apostles treat the scripture as final proof. Thy word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path. It is written! The scripture cannot be broken.

But it is more likely that it is man's authority that is imposed on the the text.

Very common, and that is what you do.

Is Christ infallible? Is the Holy Spirit infallible? Those are my authorities. The ONLY authorities.

Fine, then turn away from your corrupt ecclesiastical traditions and look to the Word of God.

Christ is Head of the Body, the Body enlivened by the Holy Spirit is the pillar and ground of Truth.

You don't seem to even understand what the Church is. The Church is the sum total of all who trust Christ as Savior (that excludes those who deny security in Christ). You only get into it by baptism of the Spirit. The continuity of the Church is not established by organizational continuity in cities, like Antioch or Jerusalem. The continuity is established by the Holy Spirit bringing in each new member when the man is born again and baptized by the Spirit (1 Cor 12:13). The members of the Church are identified by their perception of Christ's voice. The Sheep hear His voice. Those who prefer religious tradition are also thus identified.

Yes, the Church upholds the truth. So what? But the Church is not the author of the Word of God, it is God Himself, carrying prophets who utter God's Word. And the scripture itself (not the men) are the expired word of God, God-breathed, theopneustos.

The Holy Spirit entrusted the Gospel to the Apostles, John 14: 26, John 16:13.

Do you have some proof that the gospel was only entrusted to apostles and not to the entire Body of Christ?

The apostles were the foundation of that Church that began at Pentecost and has existed ever since in this world, and in the original cities it was brought to in the first century.

You continue to just say things; no proof. But yes the apostles and prophets were in the foundation of the Church; we no longer being in the foundation phase on earth. If you have some proof that particular cities were special or had special authority, bring forth your proof. Saying it goes not where.

Christ had not abandoned His Church, nor has the Holy Spirit permitted man to impose his ideas upon it.

Humbly submit to the Word of God. Do not impose anything on it. Be like a noble Beroean checking out the teachings. Do not pretend that the Bible is a rubber nose or obtuse, even if it goes beyond our full understanding.

You can check the historical record for the consistant faith from the beginning as well as its existence.

I have a history major at university graduate level, and I have taught Church History. So I won't be checking anything, but I will be demanding historical proof from you for your assertions.

Perhaps what you need is just to have more scripture quoted to you -- do with it what you may. Interacting with your "I said its" is really a waste of time. If you have a verse to quote and an argument to make from it, it might be worth considering. But enough of your pontifications without scripture.
[/QUOTE]

2 Tim 1:8-9
… God; who saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before times eternal,

2 thes 2:16-17 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God our Father who loved us and gave us eternal comfort and good hope through grace, comfort your hearts and establish them in every good work and word.
Rm 6:23b
the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

John 10:27-29
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

John 6:37
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

John 10:28
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

2 Corinthians 1:22
And who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

Romans 11:29
For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

1 John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

Philippians 1:6
And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

 

[Cassian]

Atwood,

What makes you think that a child of God doesn't understand God's Word? My sheep hear my voice! Those who fail to believe it can be rebuked for being slow of heart. You follow the path of the Pharisees who put man's tradition above the word of God and were soundly rebuked for it.

Now you go on sneering at sola scriptura. But you don't prove that you have something other than the Bible which is God's Word and readily available to men in general. Prove you have it, or cease sneering.

So far, you are the only one with the man made traditions. But then you and all sola scripturist read it as well and come up with different interpretations. so the Bible is not only NOT clear, but also not auuthoritative. It is all of man and his superb intellect, the true Rennaisance man, the humanist. The Bible was not meant for any man in general. It was entrusted to Christ's Church, to use it as I Tim 3:16 states when it is taught with the original meaning that was part of the Revelation given to the Apostles. You are trying to figure out what Paul taught the Corinthians for three years before he wrote a letter of exhortation, and correction of what he taught.

It is the Church that was entrusted with God's revelation not individual men to attempt to impose their own intellectual interpretation upon it. YOu make the absurd assumnption that Christ left us with only the Bible. That nothing else was done in the first century. That there were no Christians because they did not have the Bible as you have it.

You remind me of the serpent who said, "Yea, hath God said."
The Word of God is the reliable authority as the Lord and the apostles affirm. There were many interpretations when the NT was written, but the Lord Jesus and the apostles treat the scripture as final proof. Thy word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path. It is written! The scripture cannot be broken.

You obviously have never read early Church history. Scripture is not the ONLY word of the Lord. In fact it was not even the word of the Lord for most of the first century. Scripture is not a reliable text as man uses it because it gives thousands of meanings. How can that be reliable?

Very common, and that is what you do.

so far you are the only one that has done so. But so has every other sola scripturist. They create their own personal gospels based on their own private interpretations. I listed four which you hold to.

Fine, then turn away from your corrupt ecclesiastical traditions and look to the Word of God.

I don't need to since Christ does not have any corrupt ecclesiastical traditions. He has ONLY ONE Tradition, His Revelation that He gave to the Apostles. That is the word of God that is being preserved. Some of it can be found in a Book called the Bible.

You don't seem to even understand what the Church is. The Church is the sum total of all who trust Christ as Savior (that excludes those who deny security in Christ). You only get into it by baptism of the Spirit. The continuity of the Church is not established by organizational continuity in cities, like Antioch or Jerusalem. The continuity is established by the Holy Spirit bringing in each new member when the man is born again and baptized by the Spirit (1 Cor 12:13). The members of the Church are identified by their perception of Christ's voice. The Sheep hear His voice. Those who prefer religious tradition are also thus identified.

which is not scriptural, and is actually your man made tradition speaking, Not the Word of God as preserved by the Holy Spirit within the Body of Christ.
The continuity is by the Holy Spirit, but it is ONLY within His Body. Baptism (water and the Spirit) enters one into Christ. The Church is the recipient of the Word of God. The Apostles were the foundation of that Church. It is their teaching to the early Church that comprises the Holy Tradition and eventually the scripture that was derived from that Holy Tradition. Actually you are incorrect, it is the word of God that was inspired to the Apostles, they taught it and later wrote some corrective letters, and four wrote the Gospels and acts as a historical record.

Do you have some proof that the gospel was only entrusted to apostles and not to the entire Body of Christ?

At the time it was given they were the Body of Christ. So, yes it was to the entire Body of Christ. But if it is given to individuals then the Holy Spirit lied in II Peter 1:20-21 and also JUde who states that it was given ONCE. Jude 3. If it is given to each, then we don't need the Bible either. It would become superfluous.

You continue to just say things; no proof. But yes the apostles and prophets were in the foundation of the Church; we no longer being in the foundation phase on earth. If you have some proof that particular cities were special or had special authority, bring forth your proof. Saying it goes not where.

You have heard of the Great Commission of Matt 19:28, right. He stated to go from Jerusalem, to Judeah and to the utter parts of the world. But the end of the 3rd century the Church and the Gospel has spread throughout the entire Roman Empire of that day, inspite of contuous persecution and some quite severe at several times. YOu seem to doubt what scripture teaches, YOu don't really trust that Christ can do what He says He will do.

Humbly submit to the Word of God. Do not impose anything on it. Be like a noble Beroean checking out the teachings. Do not pretend that the Bible is a rubber nose or obtuse, even if it goes beyond our full understanding.

I have and have not imposed anything upon it. However, as I pointed out you have imposed at least 4 man made theories/interpretations upon scripture. NOt probably including your own.

I have a history major at university graduate level, and I have taught Church History. So I won't be checking anything, but I will be demanding historical proof from you for your assertions.

I can understand that. My college professors all Doctorates, didn't know and understand either. They all interpreted history, the Church Fathers, the theology of the Church as they did scripture which always aligned with their particular tradition. NOt surprising that you would do the very same thing. Man cannot have his own gospel have any validity as long as other Truth is present. So man needs to minimize, trivilse history, and even demonize it as you did just a couple of paragraphs above.
It is hare to kick against the pricks. I did it for 55 years and suddenly realized that I was caught in a mythological, philosophical environment that was meaningless and all the thousands of interpretations literally made scripture null and void. I began a search for the Unified Gospel and Unified Church that Christ promised in scripture. If ye seek, ye shall find. It did not take long considering four years of intensive study compared to the 51 years of chaos and confusion and division.

 

[Timeline]

Why did you not include 6:9 which explains the preceding?

[/B]But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak:

Heb 6:9 tells us that the preceding verses about professed Christians, not about born-again saved Christians.


If you want to love the Lord with all your heart, then you must have a new birth and a change of nature with the Holy Spirit indwelling. Love is the fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5).

When he says, "[SUP]9 [/SUP]But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way. [SUP]10 [/SUP]For God is not unjust so as to forget your work and the love which you have shown toward His name, in having ministered and in still ministering to the saints. [SUP]11 [/SUP]And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence so as to realize the full assurance of hope until the end, [SUP]12 [/SUP]so that you will not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises." don't you think he is saying to continue in Jesus Christ.

He says that God is not unjust so as to forget your work. And that we are to imitate those that imitate Jesus (not in so many words, but that is what he is saying). And though we can never achieve perfection (in the flesh), we do work as best we can (not to be saved, but because we were saved).

It seems to me that you left off verses 10-12. But I do suppose that we could go back and forth like this until we pass from this life.

I don't think that most people on here, that believe in OSAS, believe that we should be without work. But they don't like the way that we say it.

And those that say that we can fall away, don't believe that it is because God's power is lacking or that he doesn't keep his promises. But with our true acceptance of Jesus Christ, there is an accompanying change. Without that change, it is evident, if not to us, then to God, that we did not truly accept Jesus into our hearts. And once that change has happened, and then we turn away, then we are lost. I do not believe that this is a back and forth thing with each of our sins and requests for forgiveness. That's just not how it works, in my opinion. But when we start saying that God does not exist and that Jesus was just a man, I think that we have rejected salvation that we may have once had.

 

[newbirth]

Originally Posted by Atwood

If does not mean "if and only if."

Since eternal security implies that Christians are secure in their salvation forever, then they continue in the faith.

Philippians 1:6
And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

Show me in that epistle where Paul is referring to you who he doesn't know, but to these [SUP]5 [/SUP]For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now;...[SUP]7 [/SUP]Even as it is meet for me to think this of you all, because I have you in my heart; inasmuch as both in my bonds, and in the defence and confirmation of the gospel, ye all are partakers of my grace.

Later on he states [SUP]10 [/SUP]That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ.
How would Paul know if God started any good work in you or me?

The Lord Jesus quoted individual verses to prove his points -- see Mat 4. You have the Bible; you are certainly encouraged to check the context of anything I quote to you.

[SUP]6 [/SUP]Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

There is nothing in the context to nullify the plain implication of this verse; and on the contrary, there are many passages that confirm it.

Are you denying, one must continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard,for Christ, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

Stop contradicting the gospel hindering persons from dependence on the Savior. Nothing is bent. You are urged actually to trust the Lord Jesus with your future -- place yourself totally in His hands as a wretched sinner, unable to keep yourself -- but He is able. I could quote all of Romans, but let this suffice for the moment:

That is what you did when you accepted him as Lord and Saviour. Have you not grown?
[h=3]2 Peter 1:2-11[/h]King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]2 [/SUP]Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
[SUP]3 [/SUP]According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

[SUP]4 [/SUP]Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

[SUP]5 [/SUP]And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

[SUP]6 [/SUP]And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

[SUP]7 [/SUP]And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

[SUP]8 [/SUP]For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

[SUP]9 [/SUP]But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

[SUP]10 [/SUP]Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
[SUP]11 [/SUP]For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.



End of Rom 8:
And we know that to them that love God all things work together for good, even to them that are called according to his purpose. For whom
he foreknew,
he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: and whom
he foreordained, them
he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom
he justified, them
he also glorified.

31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? 3He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not also with him freely give us all things? Who shall lay anything to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth; who is he that condemneth? It is Christ Jesus that died, yea rather, that was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or anguish, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Even as it is written,
For thy sake we are killed all the day long;
We were accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Are you also denying God gave you Power ?

 

[SeaBass]

You're correct the book of Romans does not contain all the word of God but it is a doctrinal epistle addressed to the church.

I can see where 1 Co. 3 can be understood as 'building the church' collectively, but I also see and understand it in an individual light as being to every man building upon their foundation which is Christ. We are the temple of God because the Spirit of God dwells in us.


What is not understood when speaking of salvation and being born again of the Spirit - that Spirit created in us is incorruptible. It is born of the Spirit - God is Spirit - We are part of the family of God . . . The same relationship held in earthly families can be related to our heavenly family. In our earthly families our 'standing' is that of a child and we will be a child until we die [corruptible seed] although our 'state' may change based on our behavior.
When we are born of God our 'standing' in the family of God is that of a son/daughter and we will be a son/daughter as long as that seed remains in us. That seed is incorruptible and Spirit is eternal. Our 'state' will fluctuate just as in our earthly family based on our behavior. We apologize for wrongdoing in an earthly family and we ask forgiveness in our heavenly family to restore our 'state' or our fellowship.

Every man's work (convert) shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work (convert) of what sort it is.

If any man's work (convert) abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

If any man's work (convert) shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans serif]Paul will receive a reward for his Corinthian converts that are saved, but will experience a sense of loss over his converts that are lost/burned as h would over his Galatian converts if they were lost, Gal 4:11. If Paul's converts are lost, Paul himself shall be saved as long as he remains faithful,1 Cor 9:27


I can have a fleshly son and he will always be my fleshly son whether he is saved today and lost tomorrow/. It does not work the same with with God's spiritual family. God can disinherit his elect, Num 14:12.[/FONT]

 

[SeaBass]

Yes, innocent people have need of attorneys . . . innocent people can be falsely accused.

And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.


Not on the day of judgement if a persons has no sins that can cause him to be lost.

 

[SeaBass]

Those who read 1 Peter 1:5 and deny eternal security are as those Paul warned of here 2 Tim 3:5 !

1 Pet 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

2 Tim 3:5 would be about those that read 1 Pet 1:5 and pervert it to read "kept by the power of God unconditionally" meaning God will keep one even if he loses his faith.

 

[posthuman]

wow this thread has gotten big!

i just know that God is faithful, and that His mercy endures forever, and that Christ's work is sufficient for me.

that's all i know.
i feel secure, glad, and thankful, and that i ought to be praising God over it!

 

[SeaBass]

To teach them truth over the error(s) in and of this world. All one has to do is have sinned just once, and they are not fit ever for the kingdom of Heaven. No matter what one does afterwards outside of believing and trusting God through Son's perfect work for them, where one is made perfect by Son's sacrifice for them.
leaving this:
Hebrews 2:3 how shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

Hebrews 10:28 He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

i am elated for you that you want and desire to serve the living God and know since you want this God will do this:
Romans 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man’s servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand

and this is why i make no judgment of you, I know God will do as God says, seen it tooooooooooooo many timjes not to know

One needs an advocate for his sins, 1 Jn 2:2; 1 Jn 4:10. Sin is why one is lost, but if it is not possible for one to be lost then he has no sins so he needs no advocate.

From Coffman's Commentary "The Greek word to be translated by one of these words (propitiation, or expiation) is [hilasmos], the primary meaning being "the removal of wrath."[9] It is this element of the meaning which some would like to get rid of. However, there is a divine wrath against every form of sin (Romans 1:18), and God's forgiveness is not merely the ignoring of this wrath. "Expiation" carries the meaning that Christ's blood indeed procured for people the forgiveness of sins, but it leaves out the connection with God's wrath. Full agreement here is felt with Stott, Morris, and others who preferred "propitiation." There are implications in the atonement wrought by the death of Christ that are completely beyond any total understanding by finite intelligence. "Propitiation" means the "removal of wrath," and "expiation" means the "removal of guilt"; but in view of the fact of God's wrath being a reality mentioned countless times in the New Testament, it would appear to be far better to retain the word that includes "removal of wrath" in its meaning.


So if propitiation means "removal of wrath", yet God has no wrath upon one if he cannot be lost, so why/how remove God's wrath when it would not exist?

 

[SeaBass]

Rather id one believes, and sins God the Father in the power of the Holy Spirit of truth, teaches us the stupidity of any and all sins, where we walk away from those prior in God's timing not ours. The sooner we give up on ourselves and put no confidence in flesh nature to do as God wants, we might discover this:
Philippians 3:1-11

Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

3 Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe. [SUP]2 [/SUP]Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision. [SUP]3[/SUP]For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh. [SUP]4 [/SUP]Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: [SUP]5 [/SUP]circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; [SUP]6 [/SUP]concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. [SUP]7 [/SUP]But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. [SUP]8 [/SUP]Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, [SUP]9 [/SUP]and be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: [SUP]10 [/SUP]that I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; [SUP]11 [/SUP]if by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.



So if one decides to be dead to self via the death of Christ at the cross, then might if god willing see the new life in Spirit and truth by the resurrected Christ?

If ES were true, you would not have to walk away from any sins, you could live in sin and still be saved. Yet the argument is made since Simon sinned or Judas sinned then their sinning proves they were never really saved. If that's the case, then any time any Christian sins, his sinning proves he was never really saved to begin with. Since all Christians sin, then none were really saved to begin with..at least according to the excuse "never saved to begin with".

 

[SeaBass]

wow this thread has gotten big!

i just know that God is faithful, and that His mercy endures forever, and that Christ's work is sufficient for me.

that's all i know.
i feel secure, glad, and thankful, and that i ought to be praising God over it!

Some seem to ignore that there are two sides of salvation;

1) God's faithfulness to man
2) mans' faithfulness to God

Some just pick out scriptures that speak of #1 as Jn 10:28 and ignore scriptures that speak of #2 as Jn 10:27.

 

[Atwood]

Ye Olde Present Tense Canard, The PTC:

It has been claimed that the use of the present tense in Bible verses (which appear to assert security), destroys eternal security, as if the present tense were the only tense used in such contexts. On such a PTC perversion of God's promise, when scripture says "that whosoever believes in Him should not perish," it may be claimed that the meaning is that whosoever continually believes and does not stop believing" does not perish, but if a Christian should slip up and stop believing some day, he is out of luck.

So if the Bible reports in some story: Joe eats pork chops, that would mean, Joe eats pork chops continually and never stops! So when James says "In many things we all stumble," the meaning would be that the Christian stumbles continually and never stops stumbling. This is perversion of the present tense.

But the Present Tense Canarder need give heed to the following in John 5:1 " "Whosoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is begotten of God: and whosoever loves him that begat loves [present tense] [him also that is begotten of him."

On the PTC then, John 5:1 implies eternal security; for it would mean that the Christian not only loves God and other Christians, but continually loves God and other Christians without stopping! Surely only a saved person does that.

On the "present tense canard," this verse would mean that the Christian continually loves and never stops loving; thus how could the Christian be lost?

One way to translate the present tense is with progressive, on-going action, if the context permits it. "Joe eats" would then be "Joe is eating." But the present tense does not imply "without stopping." The present tense in this example does not mean "Joe continually eats and never stops." Actually in the appropriate context, the present tense can mean an action going on "is eating." But the idea of whether or not or how soon it stops is not implied by the present tense. "in many things we all stumble" cannot mean that Christians continually sin without stopping, nor even "continually sin.

When the NT says, "believes," it can be translated "is believing."
For the assurance which follows applies to the a Christian in his present time. If at that present time he is believing, he is promised (stretching into the future forever) that he will not perish. Thus if you are right now believing, trusting in Christ (an action indeed going on), you have assurance of eternal life as a consequence.

But to further clench the conclusion, it should be noted that sometimes in an eternal security verse the present tense is not used.

as Philippians 1:6b states:

"He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. "

"He who began [past tense] a good work in you will [future tense] bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. "

The beginning began at a point in time. Christians don't ooze into being Christians. Their beginning is called a new birth (John 3) when they are begotten by God. A birth, by its very nature, occurs at a point in time. The new birth is a birth to a new life which is eternal, eternal life; i.e., regeneration, as in John 3:16 to everlasting life.

2 Cor 5:17 "Wherefore if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature: the old things are passed away; behold, they are become new."

John 5:1, 4,18 calls the Christian "begotten of God,"
5:1 "Whosoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is begotten of God: and whosoever loves him that begat loves him also that is begotten of him."

As noted above, on the "present tense canard" this verse would mean that the Christian continually loves and never stops loving; thus how could the Christian be lost? If love is the fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5), then how could this man in whose being the Spirit continually brings forth love (without stopping) ever become unsaved?

But when the present tense is used for on-going action, the present tense itself does not indicate "without stopping" nor any particular continuation time.

 

[Atwood]

Some seem to ignore that there are two sides of salvation;

1) God's faithfulness to man
2) mans' faithfulness to God

Some just pick out scriptures that speak of #1 as Jn 10:28 and ignore scriptures that speak of #2 as Jn 10:27.

Good morning Seabass. If you want others to consider your arguments from scripture, why don't you quote your verses?

Now what is your proof that "man's faithfulness to God" is a side of salvation? Are you saying that in salvation God makes a man a robot and forces his faithfulness?

I put it to you that two sides of salvation are
1) Man's unfaithfulness to God, and
2) God's grace to man, sinful man to whom He owes no "faithfulness."

You can add a 3rd side, how

3) God is faithful to the man who trusts the Lord Jesus as Savior.

Philippians 1:6
And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

 

[Atwood]

If ES were true, you would not have to walk away from any sins, you could live in sin and still be saved. Yet the argument is made since Simon sinned or Judas sinned then their sinning proves they were never really saved. If that's the case, then any time any Christian sins, his sinning proves he was never really saved to begin with. Since all Christians sin, then none were really saved to begin with..at least according to the excuse "never saved to begin with".

Seabass, are you aware that the above is just you saying things; not one verse of Bible proof at all. Such an argument is futile.

The POV of eternal security is that men who are saved are in fact saved. They need "foot-washing", but in essence they are saved. They do not persist in gross sin. If they start to, they will be chastened, delivered to satan for the destruction of the flesh that the spirit may be saved, as in 1 Cor 6.

In John 13 we read about the Last Supper:

Then he poureth water into the basin, and began to wash the disciples’ feet, and to wipe them with the towel wherewith he was girded. So he cometh to Simon Peter. He saith unto him, Lord, dost thou wash my feet? Jesus answered and said unto him, What I do thou knowest not now; but thou shalt understand hereafter. Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me. Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head. Jesus saith to him, He that is bathed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit:"

The Bible guarantees chastening by the Father to the child of God. But what Father would burn his son alive forever?

"If ES were true, you would . . . ."
Now dear Seabass, you can worry about this and worry about how that fits with eternal security; but eternal security is a blessed fact to the believer, regardless of how you correlate other subjects with it.

John 10:28
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish,

Dear Seabass, can you not just let go and trust the Savior with your eternal destiny?

 

[Atwood]

One needs an advocate for his sins, 1 Jn 2:2; 1 Jn 4:10. Sin is why one is lost, but if it is not possible for one to be lost then he has no sins so he needs no advocate.

So if propitiation means "removal of wrath", yet God has no wrath upon one if he cannot be lost, so why/how remove God's wrath when it would not exist?

Good morning, Dear Seabass.

Actually I concluded from a serious study of propitiation that the word is positive, as justification is positive. Justification does not mean "just as if I had never sinned" (forgiveness of sins), but it positively implies a declaration of righteousness.

Similarly ἱλαστήριον (hilastērion, related to the word hilarious) implies more than satisfaction of wrath. It is positive implying that God is favorably disposed towards the former sinner, presupposing that God's wrath was satisfied.

This is the old problem of reconciling the two truths of universal atonement, but damnation of the sinner who fails to trust Christ as Savior.
1) Christ paid the redemption which buys out from bondage and sets free;
2) Christ reconciled the world,
3) Christ performed propitiation for all the world (1 John 2:2).
4) God so loved the World that He gave His only Son.

Yet those who do not trust Christ as Savior (like Seabass now), go to the Lake of Fire.

One explanation is that while Christ's death was sufficient to pay for all men's sins; it is efficient only for the believer.

But whatever your explanation, scripture is clear that man must believe to obtain eternal life and escape the Lake of Fire.

God so loved the world that He gave His unique Son that Whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Can you not bring yourself now to let go of any thoughts of validation by works and throw yourself on God's grace (God be merciful to me a sinner) and depend fully and only on the death of the precious and loving Lamb of God, who died to get you to Heaven. There is no other hope.

11 He is the stone which was set at nought of you the builders, which was made the head of the corner. 12 And in none other is there salvation: for neither is there any other name under heaven, that is given among men, wherein we must be saved.


Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus, and thou shalt be saved,

 

[Atwood]

wow this thread has gotten big!

i just know that God is faithful, and that His mercy endures forever, and that Christ's work is sufficient for me.

that's all i know.
i feel secure, glad, and thankful, and that i ought to be praising God over it!

Let's sing it, postHuman:

Jesus My Lord will love me forever,
From Him no power of evil can sever;
He gave His life to ransom my soul;
Now I belong to Him.

Now I belong to Jesus;
Jesus belongs to me;
Not for the years of time alone;
But for eternity.

Once I was lost in sin's degradation;
Jesus came forth to bring me salvation;
His precious life He gave to redeem;
Now I belong to Him.

Now I belong to Jesus;
Jesus belongs to me;
Not for the years of time alone;
But for eternity.

Joy floods my heart
For Jesus has saved me;
Saved from the sin
So long had enslaved me;
Lifted me up from sorrow and shame;
Now I belong to Him.

Now I belong to Jesus;
Jesus belongs to me;
Not for the years of time alone;
But for eternity.

 

[Atwood]

1 Pet 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

2 Tim 3:5 would be about those that read 1 Pet 1:5 and pervert it to read "kept by the power of God unconditionally" meaning God will keep one even if he loses his faith.

Seabass, you are changing of the text mentally.

Kept means kept.
The effective agency is the power of God.

The means is διὰ πίστεως = through pisteōs (genitive of pistis).
The word pistis is translatable as faithfulness, and IMHO that fits the context better. For the men here are passive, they are kept (passive voice), and is God doing the keeping.
Through God's faithfulness.

The text doesn't say to whom the pistis belongs (God's or the Christian's pistis). The context favors "God's faithfulness.

But no matter which way you take it, the "kept by God's power" is not in doubt. That the Lord Jesus maintains the Christian's faith by intercessory prayer is indicated in the "sift as wheat" passage. Christ prayed that Peter's faith would not fail, though Peter was about to deny the Lord.