Self Defense - Is it wrong?

[1still_waters]

I said...

If you had a five-year-old daughter, would you tell her to "turn the other cheek" and not inflict pain upon a stronger older man trying to violate her, all as a means of defending her innocence?

Gimme a break. She wouldn't be "returning evil" with evil. Because it's not evil to stop someone from from hurting you that way.

Let's get a less broad definition of evil.

Then you said..

That would not be returning evil because he would be trying to hurt her, so she can hurt him back to try to stop him and escape...It does not give the right to kill him though unless that is his intent as well. Which comes to a hard area of discussion because one can easily say how do you know ones intent, which is why it is always better to try to escape or yell for help if you can.

Yeah it's really not the burden of a rape victim to find out the motives of her attacker. Especially if she's five. Waiting around long enough to find out could result in her losing her life.

Honestly if a girl, or woman is being raped, her initial responsibility isn't to figure out a way to protect her attacker's welfare. He kinda gave that up when he decided to make her a victim. So if he ends up dead, he ends up dead. Attacker's forfeit certain rights when they go to rape a girl or a woman.

We shouldn't be putting these types of burdens on victims of rape. As if it's a woman's chief responsibility to think, "Ok how do I not harm this guy who wants to rape me, because I don't know if he wants to murder me too!"

Gimme a break man.

 

[secularhermit]

@ 1st post

"I am talking about strictly hand to hand combat, not weapons."

I´m learning not to fight, though I seldom use weapons...

I´m sure FEW would not use a legalistic stone -or a club- to pull the fight away.

Defense is like LOVE, everyone has the right to make his / her decisions.

 

[kennethcadwell]

I said she could hurt him in an attempt to protect herself and get away. I never said she couldn't, but what I said is do you go beyond that and inflict more harm then they did you? If yes then you are in the wrong. The problem with this issue is putting mans law or principles in place of God's law and principles.

Example: Death penalty......some one kills some one gets arrested and sentenced to be put to death.

This is wrong in God's eyes to put this man to death, because Jesus says we are to forgive those who have done wrong to us. Putting them to death is not forgiveness, they are already in jail and by my belief they should be held there the rest of their life instead of being released. But by putting them to death is adding on to their punishment and not forgiving them. You will be wanting to see revenge....

The measure that is used is what changes the difference between self defense and revenge.

I said...



Then you said..




Yeah it's really not the burden of a rape victim to find out the motives of her attacker. Especially if she's five. Waiting around long enough to find out could result in her losing her life.

Honestly if a girl, or woman is being raped, her initial responsibility isn't to figure out a way to protect her attacker's welfare. He kinda gave that up when he decided to make her a victim. So if he ends up dead, he ends up dead. Attacker's forfeit certain rights when they go to rape a girl or a woman.

We shouldn't be putting these types of burdens on victims of rape. As if it's a woman's chief responsibility to think, "Ok how do I not harm this guy who wants to rape me, because I don't know if he wants to murder me too!"

Gimme a break man.

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

Sure you can make an argument for a 12 gauge shotgun with a legal home defense shorter barrel and a first round chambered high velocity slug at under 50 feet to put even a man wearing type IIIa body armor on his can but why take the chance and get you or one of your loved ones killed when he returns fire?

And understand that when you decide God doesn't want the worst of the unrepentant worse executed for their murders, someone else then has to work and pay to keep that person cared for denying their dependents (even higher education, etc...) due to high taxes. It's easy to be gracious with other people's hard earned money friend.

 

[4enlightment]

How would you have felt 4enlightenment if you and your family were enslaved in a hard work death camp knowing there was no chance that anyone would ever come to rescue you because the righteous in the world had decided to align with your "theology" that God ordained they should not resist evil but rather submit to genocide and hard labor enslavement instead and allow evil to triumph the world over?

And just because wars are fought that shouldn't be and suffering is always incurred with respect to war, that doesn't equate to an invalidation of Just War Theory (e.g. the ethical theory that Christians may legitimately fight in wars, but only when certain conditions are met. Those conditions include the following: the cause must be just; the war must be waged by a legitimate government; the means used must be moral; the war must be a last resort; and there must be a reasonable chance of achieving the goals of the war).

As Augustine points out, war should only be undertaken when necessary and always have as its goal the establishment of justice and the restoration of peace. It must be fought under the authority of the legitimate ruler and be conducted in a just manner.

We all is not perfect, like the scriptures says. We care so much for this life, that we are willing to sin to keep it because we has so much love for this world that we have to prepare ourselves for unfortunate incidents, like being assaulted. If I lose my life for doing what God desires me to do and that is not defending myself, then God will sees that I had lost my life for His kingdom, so then He will give me eternal life in His kingdom. But if I save my life by defending for it, then I will lose my life with Him. We have to present our bodies as sacrificial lambs in order for God to accept us. Once God has seen the blood, then He know that we has been washed clean with the blood from our sins (which it'll show that we were willing to keep His commands to the point of death). If we doesn't do this doesn't means that we are banish from His presence, but it mean that we still has to stand for trial and which He is a Just God, and while the others that made it to the point of death will be consider Saints and they will be exempted from judgment.

Matthew 16:25 For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will find it.

Revelation 2:10 Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you life as your victor’s crown.

Matthew 16:28 “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”

Acts 25:16 “I told them that it is not the Roman custom to hand over anyone before they have faced their accusers and have had an opportunity to defend themselves against the charges.

Colossians 1:22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

Your misinterpretation and misunderstanding of scripture only reveals your ignorance 4enlightenment.

 

[4enlightment]

Your misinterpretation and misunderstanding of scripture only reveals your ignorance 4enlightenment.

Matthew 11:15 Whoever has ears, let them hear.

 

[kennethcadwell]

I knew the issue of taxes would be brought up when housing some one for life in prison instead of putting them to death. Even though I agree that it is not fair to put the burden on us to pay taxes to house them, that would still be what man wants when it comes to killing them instead of imprison for life...Not what God wants.

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

Great verse, please do let us know when you're ready to hear. Right now, you're just showing everyone that your grasp of scripture is poor.

Matthew 11:15 Whoever has ears, let them hear.

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

Sure I understand. He doesn't want children going without good food, clean water, good medical care, etc... either. And, taxes is just one of the opposing arguments. Another would be that they consistently release very bad people who were supposed to be interned for life some of whom then murder innocents again. An argument can be made that this puts the blood of innocents on the hands of voters who vote like you do... voters who indirectly enabled what could have been 100% prevented.

I knew the issue of taxes would be brought up when housing some one for life in prison instead of putting them to death. Even though I agree that it is not fair to put the burden on us to pay taxes to house them, that would still be what man wants when it comes to killing them instead of imprison for life...Not what God wants.

 

[kennethcadwell]

How would keeping some one in jail for life not prevent an innocent life from being murdered again. That is how I would vote when it comes to a murderer. But then again that comes down to a big debate again when you bring up the issue of who truly is a murderer, and who do to stress, depression, or any other kind of problems made a one time mistake.

God does not want any of His children to do without, but man constantly interferes with God's ways placing their own laws and ways in the way. Taxes is one of those that man does that God does not like, but He allows us to live our own lives and choose what we want. Remember what He said about judges and kings in the old testament when they were first appointed, He said because of the hardness of our hearts He allowed it.

That is why these arguments are so hard to debate, because we like to throw our traditions and standards into God's law and way.

Sure I understand. He doesn't want children going without good food, clean water, good medical care, etc... either. And, taxes is just one of the opposing arguments. Another would be that they consistently release very bad people who were supposed to be interned for life some of whom then murder innocents again. An argument can be made that this puts the blood of innocents on the hands of voters who vote like you do... voters who indirectly enabled what could have been 100% prevented.

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

I already told you, they give them a life sentence and then sometimes let them out anyways at which point some of those start murdering again. Just because you give someone a life sentence doesn't mean they won't get out at some point to walk the streets again. Some find a way.

While, of course, murdering because you're depressed isn't as bad as murdering because you like it so they should be able to get out so they can get depressed or stressed all over again. Got it. *rolling eyes*.

Yes, our hearts are all hard so that's why we don't want murderers walking around in society. That's it. That must be the reason. It doesn't have anything to do with public safety. *rolling eyes yet again."

How would keeping some one in jail for life not prevent an innocent life from being murdered again. That is how I would vote when it comes to a murderer. But then again that comes down to a big debate again when you bring up the issue of who truly is a murderer, and who do to stress, depression, or any other kind of problems made a one time mistake.

God does not want any of His children to do without, but man constantly interferes with God's ways placing their own laws and ways in the way. Taxes is one of those that man does that God does not like, but He allows us to live our own lives and choose what we want. Remember what He said about judges and kings in the old testament when they were first appointed, He said because of the hardness of our hearts He allowed it.

That is why these arguments are so hard to debate, because we like to throw our traditions and standards into God's law and way.

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

Here's a fresh one for you. They're releasing Charles Manson back into society: Charles Manson Granted Parole | Empire News

Charlie is said to have a kooky underground following out here of assorted nuts that have maintained communications with him during his incarceration. He was friends with a famous prison gang for awhile and had one of his ladies hostess when one was released but, of course, he decapitated someone and went back in for a second life sentence after getting free from the first life sentence. Maybe they're cats or something because the math doesn't add up.

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

This is what I'm talking about Kenneth Caldwell. Manson was convicted of seven counts of first degree murder for a 1969 killing spree in Los Angeles. He was sentenced to death when he was found guilty, but the sentence was modified in 1977 to "life in prison with the possibility of parole, after a 1972 ruling by the California Supreme Court that determined the state's death penalty statute at the time was unconstitutional," according to the California Department of Corrections (because of voters that think like you do). But now he's going free. So are others who received life sentences and even death sentences that were commuted or never carried out. See how this works?

[video=youtube_share;EIEfmSUQ_z4]http://youtu.be/EIEfmSUQ_z4[/video]

 

[Dan58]

This is wrong in God's eyes to put this man to death, because Jesus says we are to forgive those who have done wrong to us. P.

God clearly defined the penalty for murder (Deuteronomy 19:11-13) and God set the penalty for rape (Deuteronomy 22:25), so the death penalty for these offenses cannot be wrong in God's eyes.

I think your confusing forgiveness with justice. While we can forgive, it doesn't absolve someone from reaping what they sow in the flesh. Its not vengeance, its justice, and it was ordained by God who is the same yesterday, today and forever. jmo

"But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die" (Deut 2:25)

"But if any man hate his neighbour, and lie in wait for him, and rise up against him, and smite him mortally that he die, and fleeth into one of these cities:Then the elders of his city shall send and fetch him thence, and deliver him into the hand of the avenger of blood, that he may die" (Deut 19: 11-12)

 

[john832]

God clearly defined the penalty for murder (Deuteronomy 19:11-13) and God set the penalty for rape (Deuteronomy 22:25), so the death penalty for these offenses cannot be wrong in God's eyes.

I think your confusing forgiveness with justice. While we can forgive, it doesn't absolve someone from reaping what they sow in the flesh. Its not vengeance, its justice, and it was ordained by God who is the same yesterday, today and forever. jmo

"But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die" (Deut 2:25)

"But if any man hate his neighbour, and lie in wait for him, and rise up against him, and smite him mortally that he die, and fleeth into one of these cities:Then the elders of his city shall send and fetch him thence, and deliver him into the hand of the avenger of blood, that he may die" (Deut 19: 11-12)

There is a difference between justice and forgiveness...

David learned this lesson all the way. In II Sam 11, David committed adultery with Bathsheba and then killed Uriah (a loyal and faithful man). He thought he had gotten away with it. Then we read chapter 12...

2Sa 12:7 And Nathan said to David, Thou art the man. Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, I anointed thee king over Israel, and I delivered thee out of the hand of Saul;
2Sa 12:8 And I gave thee thy master's house, and thy master's wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things.
2Sa 12:9 Wherefore hast thou despised the commandment of the LORD, to do evil in his sight? thou hast killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and hast taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon.
2Sa 12:10 Now therefore the sword shall never depart from thine house; because thou hast despised me, and hast taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be thy wife.
2Sa 12:11 Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun.
2Sa 12:12 For thou didst it secretly: but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun.

So God "lowered the boom" on David here. Was he doomed to eternal death?

2Sa 12:13 And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.

Now what we have here is a very brief account. David's repentance is not noted here in this passage but it is a good time to read Psa 51.

And then this...

Psa 130:1 A Song of degrees. Out of the depths have I cried unto thee, O LORD.
Psa 130:2 Lord, hear my voice: let thine ears be attentive to the voice of my supplications.
Psa 130:3 If thou, LORD, shouldest mark iniquities, O Lord, who shall stand?
Psa 130:4 But there is forgiveness with thee, that thou mayest be feared.

Back to the story...

2Sa 12:14 Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.
2Sa 12:15 And Nathan departed unto his house. And the LORD struck the child that Uriah's wife bare unto David, and it was very sick.
2Sa 12:16 David therefore besought God for the child; and David fasted, and went in, and lay all night upon the earth.
2Sa 12:17 And the elders of his house arose, and went to him, to raise him up from the earth: but he would not, neither did he eat bread with them.
2Sa 12:18 And it came to pass on the seventh day, that the child died. And the servants of David feared to tell him that the child was dead: for they said, Behold, while the child was yet alive, we spake unto him, and he would not hearken unto our voice: how will he then vex himself, if we tell him that the child is dead?
2Sa 12:19 But when David saw that his servants whispered, David perceived that the child was dead: therefore David said unto his servants, Is the child dead? And they said, He is dead.
2Sa 12:20 Then David arose from the earth, and washed, and anointed himself, and changed his apparel, and came into the house of the LORD, and worshipped: then he came to his own house; and when he required, they set bread before him, and he did eat.

David's life was filled with sorrow from this, yet his sins were forgiven.

One more big disappointment in his life...

1Ki 8:17 And it was in the heart of David my father to build an house for the name of the LORD God of Israel.
1Ki 8:18 And the LORD said unto David my father, Whereas it was in thine heart to build an house unto my name, thou didst well that it was in thine heart.
1Ki 8:19 Nevertheless thou shalt not build the house; but thy son that shall come forth out of thy loins, he shall build the house unto my name.

Same in our lives, God forgives sin, but justice is still done.

 

[Kerry]

Love conquers all.

 

[Cobus]

ONE verse that shows you GOD NEED NO ASSISTANCE when He deals with evil.... I wonder what will ahppen if a righteous man pray this to the ALMIGHTY..... Deliver me from mine enemies, O my God: defend me from them that rise up against me.
I pity all attackers no matter what age, sex or shape the righteous victim is... I pity the attackers... but then again, who here has this faith in their ALMIGHTY FATHER, they would rather protect themselves and the loved ones than to TRUST GOD WILL PROTECT.

And who protects their loved once against evil spirits, and all the new sicknesses and deseases. All the phsyco ilnesses and evil influences... Oh for that God has to be enough, but when it comes flesh to flesh, then WE ARE BETTER are we not... man and I though I can learn something from the CHRISTIANS... How sad a bunch we are.

I will appoint in these offices in my hime.... He will be the LORD of the family, He will be the Doctor of the Family, He will be the LAWYER of the Family, He will be the PROTECTOR of the Family, He will be the PREACHER of the tamily, He will be the Dentist of the family, And HE will be the MARRIAGE councellor of the Family.

Lord You are officially appointed to fulfill all these offices, and thank YOU THAT YOU APPLIED FOR ALL POSITIONS, Gongtactulations on Your appointments, I know it is all going to be WELL. You are in charge 100% Amen!

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

We're sending Charlie and some of the other unrepentant torture murderers being released to live with you Cobus. Please prepare to receive them and their friends.

We have a large number of them you see and need places to send them. Just the state I live in has released 1,400 lifers over the last three years.

I know you're a praying man but be careful because the BJS publishes their statistics and they show that 49.7% of the murderers recidivate within only 5 years.

Ref: Table 8 of the April 2014 'Recidivism of Prisoners Released in 30 States in 2005: Patterns from 2005 to 2010' by the U.S. Department of Justice's Bureau of Justice Statistics.

But I know everything will be fine with you and your family because of your "theology" so please get some rooms opened up. We have quite a few of these murderers to send and some of them are truly of the nastiest unrepentant sort.

Here's an example of what you can expect: Police: OC Serial Murder Suspects Wore GPS Devices During Killings � CBS Los Angeles

I'm sure every thing will work out simply fabulous. Cheerio.

 

[maxwel]

ONE verse that shows you GOD NEED NO ASSISTANCE when He deals with evil.... I wonder what will ahppen if a righteous man pray this to the ALMIGHTY..... Deliver me from mine enemies, O my God: defend me from them that rise up against me.
I pity all attackers no matter what age, sex or shape the righteous victim is... I pity the attackers... but then again, who here has this faith in their ALMIGHTY FATHER, they would rather protect themselves and the loved ones than to TRUST GOD WILL PROTECT.

And who protects their loved once against evil spirits, and all the new sicknesses and deseases. All the phsyco ilnesses and evil influences... Oh for that God has to be enough, but when it comes flesh to flesh, then WE ARE BETTER are we not... man and I though I can learn something from the CHRISTIANS... How sad a bunch we are.

I will appoint in these offices in my hime.... He will be the LORD of the family, He will be the Doctor of the Family, He will be the LAWYER of the Family, He will be the PROTECTOR of the Family, He will be the PREACHER of the tamily, He will be the Dentist of the family, And HE will be the MARRIAGE councellor of the Family.

Lord You are officially appointed to fulfill all these offices, and thank YOU THAT YOU APPLIED FOR ALL POSITIONS, Gongtactulations on Your appointments, I know it is all going to be WELL. You are in charge 100% Amen!

I understand this is a heated topic, and there are different perspectives from well meaning people.

Let me add one thing, just to keep this in perspective, about the verse quoted above.
Psalm 59:1 Deliver me from mine enemies, O my God: defend me from them that rise up against me.

This verse from was David, a WARRIOR, a MILITARY GENERAL, and a MILITARILY PROACTIVE KING.
A. David would utter something like this, seeking God's protection, before he went into BATTLE.
B. David would also utter something like this, seeking God's protection, when he was NOT going into battle.

This whole issue of self defense has a lot of depth, and should require more study than just a few verses.