It Is satanic Heresy to Deny Eternal Security
- Thread starter Atwood
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Don't buy it then, if you believe you cannot sin fine by me. It will not be the first lie you believe. we all make mistakes.
Clearly the New Human Nature can sin. I am asking you since you were born again have you ever sinned.
The whole purpose of Christ is for us to have salvation unto eternal life so what scripture is not connected directly or indirectly
1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1 John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
1 John 2
King James Version (KJV)
2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
Romans 6:14-16
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Romans 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
1 John 3:14-16
[SUP]14 [/SUP]We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
Clearly the New Human Nature can sin. I am asking you since you were born again have you ever sinned.
The whole purpose of Christ is for us to have salvation unto eternal life so what scripture is not connected directly or indirectly
1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1 John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
1 John 2
King James Version (KJV)
2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
Romans 6:14-16
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Romans 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
1 John 3:14-16
[SUP]14 [/SUP]We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
Yes to change from being born creators and creating as if we are Gods, which in the flesh we are knowing right and wrong, and choosing right fro selfish reasons as if we are right and steal, kill and destroy others to save the self here on earth, do we not as in the carnal nature do these things when the going gets tough we have the tendency to act like that person in Luke 16
So choose today are we the creators are the creation? Do we respond to the Love and Mercy from God, or create by going tom our place of fellowship and feel so good about self?
So choose today are we the creators are the creation? Do we respond to the Love and Mercy from God, or create by going tom our place of fellowship and feel so good about self?
Yes, which makes me ponder why Paul would be fearful for them. Either they or some didn't have a born again experience or they had and lost it. Then Paul goes on to explain that he had give birth to them again, so that they would be filled with Christ. The language Paul uses here makes me question what I always believed.
I can enjoy my life because Jesus is with me You don't have to believe me brother read the word... If you don't want to hold firm to the end my friend I can't make you but I encourage you to do so
- Hebrews 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
2 Thessalonians 2:14-17
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.
If he died for your sins, then the price has been paid.
All you need do is trust Him now with your eternal destiny.
John 6:37
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
And who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
Romans 11:29
For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
All you need do is trust Him now with your eternal destiny.
John 6:37
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
And who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
Romans 11:29
For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
The Word
Philippians 1:6
And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.
Philippians 1:6
And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.
Bookends,
The Christian can go back and forth between sinning in carnality and walking by the Spirit. In many things we all stumble. You can expect Christians to sin every day and be confessing sins every day. But they don't get lost and saved every day. We may have the Christ-mophe or the Old Man morphe, like putting on different suits of clothing. Is it really rocket science to understand that Christians sin and Christians also do miraculous good works, unselfishly loving even their enemies?
I wouldn't go to pot on some figure of speech Paul uses for the Galatians. As Peter says, some things in Paul are hard to understand. There are plenty of clear passages that tell a man how to become saved, like:
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved.
And there are plenty of clear passages that tell us Christians sin and need correction.
Philippians 1:6
And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.
The Christian can go back and forth between sinning in carnality and walking by the Spirit. In many things we all stumble. You can expect Christians to sin every day and be confessing sins every day. But they don't get lost and saved every day. We may have the Christ-mophe or the Old Man morphe, like putting on different suits of clothing. Is it really rocket science to understand that Christians sin and Christians also do miraculous good works, unselfishly loving even their enemies?
I wouldn't go to pot on some figure of speech Paul uses for the Galatians. As Peter says, some things in Paul are hard to understand. There are plenty of clear passages that tell a man how to become saved, like:
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved.
And there are plenty of clear passages that tell us Christians sin and need correction.
Philippians 1:6
And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.
Again, Cassian you started by just up and saying things with no proof. I already posted how a bunch of early so called "church" fathers taught universalism, which implies eternal security -- not that it makes any difference; for it is the Word of God which matters, not the select group of writers that the RCC preserved and called "ch fathers."
Finally Cassian got around to some scripture.
Irrelevant. The impermanence of a local church saying nothing about the eternal security of a man who trusts Christ as Savior.
The text says nothing about a man who trusts Christ as Savior not having eternal security. Likewise other gross sinners indicate they were never saved; fornicators and liars go to the Lake of Fire.
Indeed, beware lest there be in anyone an evil heart of unbelief in the Savior, who has an evil heart that cannot trust the Lord Jesus with His destiny. As Hebrews goes on to say:
And we see that they were not able to enter in because of unbelief. Let us fear therefore, lest haply, a promise being left of entering into his rest, any one of you should seem to have come short of it. For indeed we have had good tidings preached unto us, even as also they: but the word of hearing did not profit them, because it was not united by faith with them that heard. For we who have believed do enter into that rest; even as he hath said,
As I sware in my wrath,
They shall not enter into my rest:
although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
This is the rest of faith, when a man gives up trusting in his self-righteousness and trusts the Lord Jesus with His life and destiny.
Next comes Cassian in Wonderland:
The purpose appears to have been to manifest the grace of God; man is a sinful undeserving race, for whom the Lord has shown unmerited favor. This is quite consistent with eternal security. (Meditate on Ephesians 1.)
It hardly denies God's universal offer of salvation. And Cassian, why do you scorn it and not receive it?
Actually what looks new is that Cassian actually quotes some scripture and attempts to prove something from the Word of God instead of just his own saying it. I commend him for that.
Meanwhile, we must not forget:
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish
Finally Cassian got around to some scripture.
Irrelevant. The impermanence of a local church saying nothing about the eternal security of a man who trusts Christ as Savior.
The text says nothing about a man who trusts Christ as Savior not having eternal security. Likewise other gross sinners indicate they were never saved; fornicators and liars go to the Lake of Fire.
Indeed, beware lest there be in anyone an evil heart of unbelief in the Savior, who has an evil heart that cannot trust the Lord Jesus with His destiny. As Hebrews goes on to say:
And we see that they were not able to enter in because of unbelief. Let us fear therefore, lest haply, a promise being left of entering into his rest, any one of you should seem to have come short of it. For indeed we have had good tidings preached unto us, even as also they: but the word of hearing did not profit them, because it was not united by faith with them that heard. For we who have believed do enter into that rest; even as he hath said,
As I sware in my wrath,
They shall not enter into my rest:
although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
This is the rest of faith, when a man gives up trusting in his self-righteousness and trusts the Lord Jesus with His life and destiny.
Next comes Cassian in Wonderland:
The purpose appears to have been to manifest the grace of God; man is a sinful undeserving race, for whom the Lord has shown unmerited favor. This is quite consistent with eternal security. (Meditate on Ephesians 1.)
It hardly denies God's universal offer of salvation. And Cassian, why do you scorn it and not receive it?
Actually what looks new is that Cassian actually quotes some scripture and attempts to prove something from the Word of God instead of just his own saying it. I commend him for that.
Meanwhile, we must not forget:
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish
P
Cut the foreskin off your heart, ears, and eyes. That is the same garbage all OSAS people quote - "He was talking about the church, not people"..........Tell me, oh wise one, what exactly IS the church, if not people?????
According to you and the foolish doctrine you endorse, they gathered a bunch of buildings together? Very, very clearly the church is people. A building cannot slide into apostasy. Of course Christ was talking about christians.
According to you and the foolish doctrine you endorse, they gathered a bunch of buildings together? Very, very clearly the church is people. A building cannot slide into apostasy. Of course Christ was talking about christians.
A local church is a mixture of saved and lost even from early establishment. Over time, it is possible for a given congregation to end up totally unregenerate. The local church in Ephesus had a danger of having its witness removed. Today, so far as I know there is no local church in Ephesus. This has nothing to do with the eternal security of the one who trusts Christ as Savior. Neither in the statement about removing the lampstand, does the term eternal life occur nor salvation. You are off topic.
Of course local churches die. That says nothing about the regenerated men in that local church. Christ was addressing a local church and it being eliminated. That says nothing about saved persons in that local church not having eternal security.
Now come up with a verse that says that eternal life is temporary life or that persons once having it some time stop having it (oxymoron). You simply cannot. And your scripture says nothing about salvation whatsoever. A local church can be shaken out of existence. But not the kingdom that believers receive.
Wherefore, receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us have grace, whereby we may offer service well-pleasing to God with reverence and awe:
Phil, you need to trust the Lord Jesus with your eternal destiny. Otherwise you are lost forever, and no light ever came from you.
Of course local churches die. That says nothing about the regenerated men in that local church. Christ was addressing a local church and it being eliminated. That says nothing about saved persons in that local church not having eternal security.
Now come up with a verse that says that eternal life is temporary life or that persons once having it some time stop having it (oxymoron). You simply cannot. And your scripture says nothing about salvation whatsoever. A local church can be shaken out of existence. But not the kingdom that believers receive.
Wherefore, receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us have grace, whereby we may offer service well-pleasing to God with reverence and awe:
Phil, you need to trust the Lord Jesus with your eternal destiny. Otherwise you are lost forever, and no light ever came from you.
So then, are you arguing that Augustine's position on eternal security should be rejected because it was mediated to Christian doctrine by Augustine to whom it was taught it by the Neo-platonists, Manicheanism, and Gnosticism?
Now I would like to see some proof of such a claim. But I have to tell you that once you prove this, then your argument is destroyed. For if Augustine's position on eternal security is wrong, then your position is also wrong; for Augustine rejected eternal security! I read him years ago for myself. To me Augustine is a strange combo of predestinationism with rejection of eternal security! So do you now admit you are wrong on your rejection of eternal security because the rejection of eternal security is a heresy injected into Christianity by Augustine from Neo-platonists, Manicheanism, and Gnosticism?
Now how could you know that? Original Sin and Predestination are clearly taught in Romans. Thus they are not theories, but facts. And your claim that these ideas remained mostly dormant requires proof that you have no way of obtaining; as you do not have the minutes of centuries of church meetings all over Europe, Asia Minor, and North Africa (let any congregations begun by Doubting Thomas in India) -- thousands of churches, with millions of meetings, and you can say what was dormant?
At any rate, since you seem to like the select "church fathers" which have been preserved for us by the RCC and EO denominations, I thought I would add my 2 cents worth in on Augustine, not that it makes a whit of difference, since I have no evidence that Aug was any prophet.
But the evidence for eternal security is profound and conclusive from God's Word.
The Lord has
"put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee. "
Moreover, "the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. "
Now I would like to see some proof of such a claim. But I have to tell you that once you prove this, then your argument is destroyed. For if Augustine's position on eternal security is wrong, then your position is also wrong; for Augustine rejected eternal security! I read him years ago for myself. To me Augustine is a strange combo of predestinationism with rejection of eternal security! So do you now admit you are wrong on your rejection of eternal security because the rejection of eternal security is a heresy injected into Christianity by Augustine from Neo-platonists, Manicheanism, and Gnosticism?
Now how could you know that? Original Sin and Predestination are clearly taught in Romans. Thus they are not theories, but facts. And your claim that these ideas remained mostly dormant requires proof that you have no way of obtaining; as you do not have the minutes of centuries of church meetings all over Europe, Asia Minor, and North Africa (let any congregations begun by Doubting Thomas in India) -- thousands of churches, with millions of meetings, and you can say what was dormant?
At any rate, since you seem to like the select "church fathers" which have been preserved for us by the RCC and EO denominations, I thought I would add my 2 cents worth in on Augustine, not that it makes a whit of difference, since I have no evidence that Aug was any prophet.
But the evidence for eternal security is profound and conclusive from God's Word.
The Lord has
"put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee. "
Moreover, "the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. "
Thanks. The name I took was the same name I heard, but it was originally going to be, No1, but when my son set me up on Christian chat, he said that it says, number 1, not no one. I was thinking more along the lines of, 'I am no one without Christ', but to keep the name I heard in my ear, not knowing what way it was intended to be, I changed it to know1.
Yes, we have to wait on God for some things, but if you never received what you asked for, then your waiting was in vain. God said, 'according to your faith, be it unto you'. If you don't believe you already have it, then you don't, and you will never get what you have been waiting on God for.
Deu 34:7 And Moses was an hundred and twenty years old when he died: his eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated.
God creates the fruit of your lips, and if you are going to continue to walk in the natural, rather than by faith, then you will have as you believed and spoke.
Know it or not, but you are putting Mark 11:23 to work against you. God has given us both blessings and curses, then He told us to choose. You have chosen to have the curse of the law work on your flesh instead of being redeemed from it. Decay, is one of the curses of the law of sin. You're not redeemed from the things you fail to take by faith.
Sickness is another. We are redeemed from this curse as well, when we receive it by faith, and you cannot do that if you are looking at the natural all the time. What you look at the most, you will believe, and what you really believe, you will act on, and when you act on it, it is yours, then you will have it in the natural. Whether it is for healing or sickness, it will be yours, even as you believed.
Yes, though it's not as simple as that, 'cause the person being healed needs to have faith as well. Jesus healed living people that had faith, those that didn't have faith, remained the same. You need to teach people that God has healed them, that being the child of God, before they start believing it, as faith comes by hearing. Then God WILL heal them, when they act on His word in faith. You must believe you have received the thing you asked for from God, before it manifests in the natural.
Mat 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Mar 11:24 Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye [have already] receive[d] them, and ye shall have them.
I understand that this is not the running topic of this thread, but what you are now saying is not in the scriptures, but you are speaking from personal experience, and what you have been taught. This is what I was trying to get at. Everyone has their eyes on the natural, in other words, being carnally minded, and not walking by faith nor in the Spirit.
God's strength is not made perfect in your sickness or infirmity, because you are not making use of His strength by getting bashed over the head by the devil and doing nothing about it. While God's children are saying that His strength is made perfect in their sickness, they are dying. Some strength that is. God's strength is in the power of His word. If you do nothing with it, you are not making use of His strength.
No where in scripture has God said He wouldn't heal or that His answer is, 'no', except to the wicked or unrighteous.
If there are those of us who get all their prayers answered because they act on the truth of God's word, and then there are those who say, 'God says no', and their prayers don't get answered, what do you suppose the problem is? Are we any more special to God than you? No! But if God is answering our prayers and not your, then why prey tell, are you not interested in listening? Why do you continue to choose sickness over healing or being a partaker of the divine nature of God and walk in health, free from sickness, disease, and other things in this natural world?
God did not tell Paul, no, but gave him the answer to his question. We are not to ask God to take care of the devil for us. He told us to resist the devil, and to cast the stench out, in His name. That is where His power is made perfect. Faith in Him and His word. When we fail to act on, or by not being a doer of the word of God, we deceive ourselves, and that is one of the sorry things that has happened to so many Christians in these last days. They fail to believe what God said in His word, and have believed a lie that they have seen, felt, heard, and experienced, not knowing how the kingdom of God works.
Yes, we have to wait on God for some things, but if you never received what you asked for, then your waiting was in vain. God said, 'according to your faith, be it unto you'. If you don't believe you already have it, then you don't, and you will never get what you have been waiting on God for.
Deu 34:7 And Moses was an hundred and twenty years old when he died: his eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated.
God creates the fruit of your lips, and if you are going to continue to walk in the natural, rather than by faith, then you will have as you believed and spoke.
Know it or not, but you are putting Mark 11:23 to work against you. God has given us both blessings and curses, then He told us to choose. You have chosen to have the curse of the law work on your flesh instead of being redeemed from it. Decay, is one of the curses of the law of sin. You're not redeemed from the things you fail to take by faith.
Sickness is another. We are redeemed from this curse as well, when we receive it by faith, and you cannot do that if you are looking at the natural all the time. What you look at the most, you will believe, and what you really believe, you will act on, and when you act on it, it is yours, then you will have it in the natural. Whether it is for healing or sickness, it will be yours, even as you believed.
Yes, though it's not as simple as that, 'cause the person being healed needs to have faith as well. Jesus healed living people that had faith, those that didn't have faith, remained the same. You need to teach people that God has healed them, that being the child of God, before they start believing it, as faith comes by hearing. Then God WILL heal them, when they act on His word in faith. You must believe you have received the thing you asked for from God, before it manifests in the natural.
Mat 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Mar 11:24 Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye [have already] receive[d] them, and ye shall have them.
I understand that this is not the running topic of this thread, but what you are now saying is not in the scriptures, but you are speaking from personal experience, and what you have been taught. This is what I was trying to get at. Everyone has their eyes on the natural, in other words, being carnally minded, and not walking by faith nor in the Spirit.
God's strength is not made perfect in your sickness or infirmity, because you are not making use of His strength by getting bashed over the head by the devil and doing nothing about it. While God's children are saying that His strength is made perfect in their sickness, they are dying. Some strength that is. God's strength is in the power of His word. If you do nothing with it, you are not making use of His strength.
No where in scripture has God said He wouldn't heal or that His answer is, 'no', except to the wicked or unrighteous.
If there are those of us who get all their prayers answered because they act on the truth of God's word, and then there are those who say, 'God says no', and their prayers don't get answered, what do you suppose the problem is? Are we any more special to God than you? No! But if God is answering our prayers and not your, then why prey tell, are you not interested in listening? Why do you continue to choose sickness over healing or being a partaker of the divine nature of God and walk in health, free from sickness, disease, and other things in this natural world?
God did not tell Paul, no, but gave him the answer to his question. We are not to ask God to take care of the devil for us. He told us to resist the devil, and to cast the stench out, in His name. That is where His power is made perfect. Faith in Him and His word. When we fail to act on, or by not being a doer of the word of God, we deceive ourselves, and that is one of the sorry things that has happened to so many Christians in these last days. They fail to believe what God said in His word, and have believed a lie that they have seen, felt, heard, and experienced, not knowing how the kingdom of God works.
Atwood,
Historical record is proof. I understand your need to denigrate history, deomonize it so that modern man can elevate their own teachings.
However, the only person that I know of that taught what is known as Universalism was Origin. Later that concept was declared heretical. The Church Fathers did not determine what the Church believed. If the Church Father was faithful to the gospel they were accorded as correct or faithful to the teachings of the Church.
It matters a lot what the faithful Church Fathers wrote. Several of those listed were taught directly by the Apostles and were first generation followers. That is wholly more reliable than a man, like yourself, 2000 years later, who has never been taught the Gospel, to determine what a text might mean. It is what the Word of God matters, and the Church, the faithful Church Fathers have much more authority than you and even Calvin of only 500 years ago. And historical record also shows that he got the idea from Augustine who got the idea from his former pagan religion. Hardly Gospel Truth.
True to form you dismiss scripture altogether if it does not have your 1 or two texts that seemingly support predestination. However, notwithstanding your false teachings, scripture is quite clear that both predestination and its tenet of OSAS has never been a teaching of scripture. History is repleat with evidence that it is NOT scriptural, as well as repleat as to where it does originate.
In the last several pages in this thread you have consistantly redefined scripture within the bias of predestination. It does not fit, will never fit. YOu believe a myth and have turned scripture upside down with the false teaching. YOu have actually denied most of scripture in lieu of a few texts that you have isolated to support predestination/OSAS.
Three false aspects of your view....
assumption that one is actually saved upon entrance into Christ absolutely, finitely, rather than a possession.Satisfaction theory of Atonement.
Assumption that one does not need to attain eternal life which was the purpose of Christ saving mankind from death and sin as well as the original purpose of God creating man. Predestination
It creates an arrangement where God is the sole active agent in having eternal life, and man becomes a mere passive inert object. Predestination.
In other words it destroys scripture and the God/man relationship for which all men were created to have with God, freely.
YOur view only can exist in a framework of Predestination as formulated by Calvin originally but nuanced by several men since, but the bottom line has never changed.
Historical record is proof. I understand your need to denigrate history, deomonize it so that modern man can elevate their own teachings.
However, the only person that I know of that taught what is known as Universalism was Origin. Later that concept was declared heretical. The Church Fathers did not determine what the Church believed. If the Church Father was faithful to the gospel they were accorded as correct or faithful to the teachings of the Church.
It matters a lot what the faithful Church Fathers wrote. Several of those listed were taught directly by the Apostles and were first generation followers. That is wholly more reliable than a man, like yourself, 2000 years later, who has never been taught the Gospel, to determine what a text might mean. It is what the Word of God matters, and the Church, the faithful Church Fathers have much more authority than you and even Calvin of only 500 years ago. And historical record also shows that he got the idea from Augustine who got the idea from his former pagan religion. Hardly Gospel Truth.
True to form you dismiss scripture altogether if it does not have your 1 or two texts that seemingly support predestination. However, notwithstanding your false teachings, scripture is quite clear that both predestination and its tenet of OSAS has never been a teaching of scripture. History is repleat with evidence that it is NOT scriptural, as well as repleat as to where it does originate.
In the last several pages in this thread you have consistantly redefined scripture within the bias of predestination. It does not fit, will never fit. YOu believe a myth and have turned scripture upside down with the false teaching. YOu have actually denied most of scripture in lieu of a few texts that you have isolated to support predestination/OSAS.
Three false aspects of your view....
assumption that one is actually saved upon entrance into Christ absolutely, finitely, rather than a possession.Satisfaction theory of Atonement.
Assumption that one does not need to attain eternal life which was the purpose of Christ saving mankind from death and sin as well as the original purpose of God creating man. Predestination
It creates an arrangement where God is the sole active agent in having eternal life, and man becomes a mere passive inert object. Predestination.
In other words it destroys scripture and the God/man relationship for which all men were created to have with God, freely.
YOur view only can exist in a framework of Predestination as formulated by Calvin originally but nuanced by several men since, but the bottom line has never changed.
We do have eternal security in Jesus Christ. And that is what the bible tells us. But, what OSAS try (or at least it seems to me that they are trying) to say that we cannot reject Jesus. This is where we disagree.
We are eternally secure in Jesus. But we can reject Jesus. Now, there is a verse that says, "[SUP]4 [/SUP]For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, [SUP]5 [/SUP]and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, [SUP]6 [/SUP]and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. [SUP]7 [/SUP]For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; [SUP]8 [/SUP]but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.(Heb. 6:4-8).
But there is also a verse that says, "[SUP]10 [/SUP]According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it. [SUP]11 [/SUP]For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. [SUP]12 [/SUP]Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, [SUP]13 [/SUP]each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work. [SUP]14 [/SUP]If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. [SUP]15 [/SUP]If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.(1 Cor. 3:10-15)
At this point in time, I believe that we are told that we must remain in Jesus Christ and that, if we choose, we can leave Him and the eternal security that He provides. But as long as we are in Him, even if our work is lacking, we will be saved, but we will suffer loss. As to exactly what the loss is, I don't know. Maybe it is what is lost to the kingdom of God, in our failing to bring others to Christ. Maybe it will be a lesser reward in Heaven. Either way, we must stay in Jesus to obtain salvation. And to say that we can't loose our salvation by rejecting Jesus Christ is not true. But as dc likes to say, it is not a back and forth thing with each sin and request for forgiveness. That is not how it works either, in my opinion.
We are eternally secure in Jesus. But we can reject Jesus. Now, there is a verse that says, "[SUP]4 [/SUP]For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, [SUP]5 [/SUP]and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, [SUP]6 [/SUP]and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. [SUP]7 [/SUP]For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; [SUP]8 [/SUP]but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.(Heb. 6:4-8).
But there is also a verse that says, "[SUP]10 [/SUP]According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it. [SUP]11 [/SUP]For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. [SUP]12 [/SUP]Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, [SUP]13 [/SUP]each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work. [SUP]14 [/SUP]If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. [SUP]15 [/SUP]If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.(1 Cor. 3:10-15)
At this point in time, I believe that we are told that we must remain in Jesus Christ and that, if we choose, we can leave Him and the eternal security that He provides. But as long as we are in Him, even if our work is lacking, we will be saved, but we will suffer loss. As to exactly what the loss is, I don't know. Maybe it is what is lost to the kingdom of God, in our failing to bring others to Christ. Maybe it will be a lesser reward in Heaven. Either way, we must stay in Jesus to obtain salvation. And to say that we can't loose our salvation by rejecting Jesus Christ is not true. But as dc likes to say, it is not a back and forth thing with each sin and request for forgiveness. That is not how it works either, in my opinion.