It Is satanic Heresy to Deny Eternal Security

[Atwood]

ROM 2:7 Canard

ROM 2:7 CONDEMNS WHOEVER GOES THAT ROUTE

I don't know how many times the same old canard has been published here about Romans 2:7, out of context, where Paul is bringing everyone under condemnation in Rom 1-3. Those who want to be judged for their works on the understanding that God will give them eternal life are deluding themselves in self-righteousness, since they will be condemned by that judgment. the point is that there is none who does good, no not one!

But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil

Context:


18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.


24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. 25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.


26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.


28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; 32 and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.


2:1 Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. 2 And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things. 3 But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.


12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; . .. . . .


1Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;
10 as it is written,
“THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.”
13 “THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE,
WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING,”
“THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS”;
14 “WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS”;
15 “THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD,
16 DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS,
17 AND THE PATH OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN.”
18 “THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES.”


19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.


2

 

[newbirth]

7 For yet a very little while,
He that cometh shall come, and shall not tarry.
38 But my righteous one shall live by faith:
And if he shrink back, my soul hath no pleasure in him.
But we are not of them who shrink backunto perdition;
but of them who have faith unto the saving of the soul.

Professed Christians may indeed shrink back, but the shrink-backers are of a different class from those who have saving faith.



Now you are classing Faith what next

I classed persons here into shrink-backers vs those who have saving faith. I did not classify faith here.



Questions questions, NewB. Make your assertions if you will. And prove them. But don't get too heavily invested into talking yourself out of eternal life.



Glad you endorse God's word are pure, NewB.
And if you endorse my doctrine as holy, you are mostly right, though I can't claim purity.

No, being a back-shrinker is contrasted with having faith unto the saving of the soul. The back-shrinkers lack saving faith. As in Heb 6, reading on a few verses solves the problem of interp.

But we are not of them who shrink back unto perdition; but of
them that have faith unto the saving of the soul.

I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.

You have proven you delusions.You are afraid to answer my questions. I cannot endorse a doctrine of man it is unholy. You are right you are not pure, boast in your confession of impurity, God is our witness

 

[Atwood]

my questions.

You have to make your own assertions and prove them.

The Word of God stands like a rock and cuts like a sword:

Philippians 1:6
And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.
Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not of works lest anyone should boast.

 

[Atwood]

BE PERSUADED FROM GOD'S WORD. I CLAIM NO INFALLIBILITY

Is there anyone who claims all his doctrine has no errors? I can't claim that purity for my doctrine. Now when I was implying that, someone decided to attack me as personally impure. Let me say that no man is infallible; probably some doctrinal opinion we have on this or that is wrong. Also, all Christians have a thing called indwelling sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is no in us.

But this is pure truth: Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved.
Trust in your righteousness and good works, and you go the Lake of Fire.
He came not to call the righteous, but sinners to a change of mind.

And this is pure truth: I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.

 

[know1]

If you are fascinated about my theology, you may want to go over everything i wrote before charging me with omitting this or that. Have you done that?

Good works are the result, not the cause of salvation. They inevitably follow faith; alleged faith that has no works would not be real faith.

Now as to kinds of good works, I don't find your theory cogent.

A good work is a good work; the fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5). A good work is something the Lord loves and approves, a species of loving God or neighbor. Those who are not born again don't do any good works; they act out of their sinful Adamic nature. The only good works i know of are fruit of the Spirit. They are all that one and only kind, the fruit of the Spirit done by the man who abides in [fellowship with] Christ (John 15). Apart from Me, you can do nothing.

Sir, I don't have time to go through all your posts. You are one long winded dude.
I believe I have a small understanding of how you view works, and I would say that you still don't understand what faith is, or the type of works James is talking about.
Again, you are talking about works one does after one is save that shows they are born again, such as loving God and neighbor. Yes, that kind of work is the result of ones conversion, but it is not the same a works of faith.
Works of faith are not the same as works of the flesh or works/fruit of the Spirit. They may all be good works, but works of faith precede faith, not the reverse. Without the works, your faith will be powerless, it will remain as a wish or desire that never happened, or a prayer that went unanswered.
Works make faith work. Without works, you faith will not work. That is why James says your faith is dead without works.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved. (no works cause salvation).

That depend on the type of works you are referring to. The kind you are talking about, no, it will not cause salvation to happen.
But the kind written in Romans will.
Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Confession is a work that precedes salvation, not a result of ones salvation.

 

[Cassian]

NewB, I uphold the Word of God over your words.
Believers are sealed, though they may grieve the Spirit. There is nothing funny or trivial about it.
As to unbelievers, I don't know if their falsehoods grieves the Spirit or not; but He does not like the Lord Jesus being denied to be the Savior nor persons claiming that they can save themselves by works in contradiction to His Word.

grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption

You can cite the word of God, but your understanding is far afield of the word of God. You have been consistantly preaching predestination since ES is a contingent of predestination and not of scripture. You present the promises of God, but unfortunately, God and man are in a mutual relationship, not a forced arrangement.
You need to find texts that support man's guarantee to God that he will not break his commitment to the covenant. You are 1690 posts into YOUR thread and you have yet to produce one text that supports ES according to scripture, not Calvinism.

I noticed again in reading the last many posts, you have consistantly changed, redefined scripture to make your man made theory seem plausible. You are still clinging to the strawman also.

The theory has not changed scripture in the last 500 years, I don't think your efforts will effect any change either.

Carry on....

 

[Cassian]

Re: ROM 2:7 Canard

ROM 2:7 CONDEMNS WHOEVER GOES THAT ROUTE

I don't know how many times the same old canard has been published here about Romans 2:7, out of context, where Paul is bringing everyone under condemnation in Rom 1-3. Those who want to be judged for their works on the understanding that God will give them eternal life are deluding themselves in self-righteousness, since they will be condemned by that judgment. the point is that there is none who does good, no not one!

But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil

Context:


18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.


24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. 25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.


26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.


28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; 32 and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.


2:1 Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. 2 And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things. 3 But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.


12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; . .. . . .


1Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;
10 as it is written,
“THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.”
13 “THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE,
WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING,”
“THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS”;
14 “WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS”;
15 “THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD,
16 DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS,
17 AND THE PATH OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN.”
18 “THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES.”


19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.


2

Such futility. That straw man popped up again. The more you speak the more absurd you sound. It may be great Calvinism but in understanding scripture you will remain far afield.

 

[Atwood]

Good works are the result, not the cause of salvation. They inevitably follow faith; alleged faith that has no works would not be real faith.

Now as to kinds of good works, I don't find your theory cogent.

A good work is a good work; the fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5). A good work is something the Lord loves and approves, a species of loving God or neighbor. Those who are not born again don't do any good works; they act out of their sinful Adamic nature. The only good works i know of are fruit of the Spirit. They are all that one and only kind, the fruit of the Spirit done by the man who abides in [fellowship with] Christ (John 15). Apart from Me, you can do nothing.

That depend on the type of works you are referring to. The kind you are talking about, no, it will not cause salvation to happen.
But the kind written in Romans will.

Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Confession is a work that precedes salvation, not a result of ones salvation.

You stopped the quote short, better to go through vs 14.

For by grace you have been saved through faith,
and that not of yourself, not of works lest anyone should boast. (Eph 2)

No kind of works by man saves. The work of the Lord Jesus is what saves. He is the Savior; we are the savee (if we trust Him for it).

Confession as a work is not an essential to salvation. An explanation of why this rare "confess" is connected with salvation here is as follows:

Confess = homologeo. Homo = same, log- = say = agree. We must agree with God on who Jesus is to be saved; that is to say, only the true Jesus can save, not Jesus the mexican mechanic. The object of faith must be sufficiently accurately in mind: He is LORD, YHWH; He is risen from the dead. Having Him in mind as YHWH and saying that to God is not a saving work. No work of man saves.

Many, many times scripture gives us salvation for one act on man's part alone, believing or having faith. The odd passage like "confess" must be understood in that light and in the light that works do not save.

But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of

faith, which we preach: 9 because if thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus as LORD [=YHWH], and shalt believein thy heart that God raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved:

The only action required is believe, but the object of the faith must be correct; thus the faith must be accompanied with the conviction that Jesus is YHWH. LORD (kyrios) is the NT rendering of the OT YHWH, as 10:13 proves, where it is a quote from the OT that uses YHWH. The Savior must be defined as YHWH and as risen from the dead. The "confession" is an agreement (homologeo), not a public confession as we think of it. Who would claim that a man on a desert island could not be saved because he could not confess publically? Or that a mute man could not be saved? The passage must be understood in harmony with the rest of scripture where "confess" is not used in salvation.

10

for with the heart man

believes unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

The agreement is made with God as to Who Christ is (confession).

11

For the scripture saith,

Whosoever believes on him shall not be put to shame.

This is a great verse on eternal security: Shall not be put to shame.

12

For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek: for the same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich to all that call upon him: 13 for,
Whosoever shall call upon the name of the LORD shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed?"

Verse 13 has salvation based on one thing: calling on the name of Jesus defined as YHWH. But as vs 14 indicates, this is a call of Faith, a call in belief. As scripture tells us over & over, all that is required is faith on man's part; but calling is one way to express that faith. And if you do this calling, you must be calling in agreement that Jesus is YHWH. In context 10:13's LORD = Jesus, but it is a quote from Joel, where the term is YHWH.

So there is no work involved in Salvation. We do have to have Jesus rightly defined and trust in Him for salvation.

No matter how you interpret Rom 10, it remains true: Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved. Salvation by belief/faith is repeated so many times with nothing added, that nothing else can be regarded as essential to salvation in man's action. Romans has been saying that over & over.

But enough theory, are you ready to make that salvific call?

 

[Atwood]

Re: ROM 2:7 Canard

Such futility. That straw man popped up again.

Well, you returned Cassian.

This is the straw man of futility, that man who would be righteous by works is described as a wretched abomination:

1Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;
10 as it is written,
“THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.”
13 “THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE,
WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING,”
“THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS”;
14 “WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS”;
15 “THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD,
16 DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS,
17 AND THE PATH OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN.”
18 “THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES.”


19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

Do you get it yet Cassian, we are really wretched sinners. Have you arrived at that knowledge yet, that you are a sinner? Hanging around the Law should educate us.

 

[know1]

No matter how you interpret Rom 10, it remains true: Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved. Salvation by belief/faith is repeated so many times with nothing added, that nothing else can be regarded as essential to salvation in man's action. Romans has been saying that over & over.

Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.


Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
(GNB) Can't you see? His faith and his actions worked together; his faith was made perfect through his actions.
Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Jas 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

You can't ignore one set of scripture verses and build off another. Neither does one negate another.
It is obvious that the works Paul is talking about is different than the one James is.
When James talks about being justified, he is referring to salvation.
To say that salvation is not by works of faith is to say James got it wrong.
James says, 'by works a man is justified, and not by faith alone', while Paul says, 'a man is not justified by works'. That is because they are not the same kind of work.
What you are not seeing is that your faith won't work without corresponding action or works that correspond to your faith.
This kind of work has absolutely nothing to do with good works or of the moral and ethical laws of God. It has to do with causing a prayer to manifest in the natural.
For example, lets say you have a broken hand and you want God to heal it without going to the hospital. So you ask God to heal your hand, and you sit there waiting for your hand to show some sign of healing, such as the pain going away.
You will find that nothing has happened to your hand, that it still hurts and the bone is still jutting out of place.
There was no action on your part to cause your faith to work, so it didn't. It can't work, because it wasn't faith.
Now lets say you come to me to pray for your hand, 'cause you heard that God answers my prayers, and I finally get through to you what faith actually is and how it works and you believe what the word of God says and that God will heal you when I pray for you. So I take your broken hand in mine and ask God the Father to mend the bones back together, then say, 'In the name of Jesus, be healed!', then slap your broken hand out of mine as hard as I can. What do you think will happen? I guarantee that your hand will come back whole, and it will be because of the action of faith in God and His word.
Did my actions/work have anything to do with the moral or ethical laws written, that Paul was talking about? The works Paul was talking about has no effect on healing or salvation, but the kind that James was talking about does. There is a difference.

 

[Atwood]

Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. [when Abe was a sinner with no good works ]

Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

[This is the justification of the ungodly, not of a man already Christian]

Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
[this is justification of a man saved long before]

Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
(GNB) Can't you see? His faith and his actions worked together; his faith was made perfect through his actions. [sic, faith & works are not coordinate there]

Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man [who was long time saved when he offered Isaac] is justified [for a good work long after he was saved], and not by faith only.
Jas 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Justification is not exactly the same thing as salvation. Justification means a declaration of righteousness. Let us not interpret James as contradicting himself here. He said:
"Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness, just as Paul does.

A sinner is declared righteous simply by faith in the Lord Jesus, as the righteousness of Christ is imputed to him (Romans 5). Before a man is saved, he is dead in trespasses and sins; nothing he does is good, he is not declared righteous (justified) until by he puts His trust in the Savior and is transformed to a child of God.

After a man is saved, he can do good works which can be declared righteous; and when a born again man does good works, those works declare that he is righteous, justified in that work as in the instance of Abe offering Isaac, and Rahab helping the spies escape. The text never says that Rahab was saved by helping the spies escape. If she had not been saved before helping them escape, it would not have been a good work, since regarding men in general before salvation, there is none who does good, no not one.

When Abraham first believed YHWH, then without any works he was declared righteous by faith. Having become a saved man, then he was able to do good works. So when he offered up Isaac many years after he was saved, that act was a means of justification, a declaration of righteousness. It was not a means of salvation, for Abe was saved long before the Isaac offering.

But since God's standard is perfection (Ye shall be perfect as the Heavenly father is perfect) and since in many ways the Christian stumbles, the Christian's entire life even as a Christian would not be given a verdict of righteous based on works, though when he does a good work, the fruit of the Spirit, in that work he is declared righteous or justified.

This justification is not salvation, but a judgment of a man in a circumstance after salvation.

Scripture is clear that salvation and the justification of a sinner is by faith in the Lord Jesus alone. Abe was not sinning when he offered up Isaac. Abe was a sinner when he trusted YHWH as His Savior. The declaration of righteousness when he first believed could not have been by works. James says he was justified by faith, just as Paul does.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, & you shall be saved. This basic message is repeated over and over in the Bible. Faith is man's only requirement for salvation and justification by imputation of Christ's righteousness.

 

[newbirth]

BE PERSUADED FROM GOD'S WORD. I CLAIM NO INFALLIBILITY

Is there anyone who claims all his doctrine has no errors? I can't claim that purity for my doctrine. Now when I was implying that, someone decided to attack me as personally impure. Let me say that no man is infallible; probably some doctrinal opinion we have on this or that is wrong. Also, all Christians have a thing called indwelling sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is no in us.

But this is pure truth: Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved.
Trust in your righteousness and good works, and you go the Lake of Fire.
He came not to call the righteous, but sinners to a change of mind.

And this is pure truth: I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.

lies and deception how can it be pure when it is only part of to the truth to prove your point
[h=3]John 10:26-28[/h]King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]26 [/SUP]But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.(notice ye believe not, his sheep believe and hear, he knows them and they follow and...)

[SUP]27 [/SUP]My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

[SUP]28 [/SUP]And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.


three conditions to qualify to be his sheep to get eternal life. The sheep do this and I give them this, clear truth.
James 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.(hear and do)
John 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another. (Know them)
John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.(follow him)

 

[homwardbound]

What do you mean eternal security?
That is a non biblical statement and Im not sure what you mean

Is God Faithful to carry out the work god starts in anyone who decides to beleive God, even if they go astray?

Do you beleive God? forget all we been taught from Birth on as Saul did, who became paul
It was as if he had a chalk board in front of him, with an eraser in one hand and chalk in the other.
And God said to Saul see all your life there on that chalk board from birth on? And Saul says yes
God says to Saul, take that eraser and erase all you have learned, throw it away by using that eraser, slate clean

Then take that chalk in your hand and write on the new life board what I say to you
You now are new, born again in Spirit and truth. You as in your flesh and blood are dead, and I God hold this your old self as dead to this world and make you alive to me. For I God have forgiven any and all sins that you ever could commit, by my blood through my Son Christ for not only you, but for all in the world, I God by my Mercy have done this for you.
Now go and spread the good news
2 Corinthians 5:19 to wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

I am Eternally secure and so are you if you beleive God, God will reveal this to you, pray for the Mercy to be received from God and God alone, thank you, love to all

 

[homwardbound]

Jesus also looked at Peter and said get behind me Satan.

If we do not reckon self dead by Christ's death for us as to see us co-crucified with Christ we might not ever see the new life in spirit and truth by the resurrected Christ. peter at that time was not yet born again, and wanted to be and yet even stumbled after receiving the Spirit of truth to lead him, and learned as we all are doing after we first believed, each in different growth spurts
At any time because of being in unredeemed flesh we could and do still not always walk in Spirit and truth. And this always reminds me of my need for Father, thanking Jesus for the connection at the cross. The way, the truth and the new life given in Spirit and truth. so I am seeing this:
Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
And Father is Faithful to not only teach me this, but all, everyone who decides to believe God. And yet the enemy is always hanging out to steal, kill and destroy, and the enemy can be one's self in selfishness to live and not die.
When Christ was clear in this if one is not willing to die, then they forfeit life.
deep thought for us all to think on in ourselves and not fight between each over, at least as I see this, rather only to discuss, and decide for ourselves what is truth and what is error
thanks Kerry, you do help a lot with the insights you post

 

[homwardbound]

Matthew 16:21 From that time Jesus began to show to His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised the third day. 22 Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, "Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!" 23 But He turned and said to Peter, "Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men."

Jesus may have rebuked Peter for what he said here, but Jesus did not refer to Peter as an unbelieving, unclean devil who would betray him. Jesus also referred to Judas as the son of perdition, but not Peter.

And yet Jesus went down to Hell and preached to all held in prison, and those that believed Christ went with Christ freed, all the way back to Adam. I bet Judas there chose belief
God is perfect period and is the perfect sacrifice for all who will change their mind from unbelief to belief
Get transferred from flesh death to Spirit life
For Christ was born:
1 Corinthians 15:45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.

And by the resurrected Christ is where this new life is for us that believe, if God permits?
Ask and you shall receive, just do not ask amiss.

 

[homwardbound]

I understand where the debate is coming from about Judas, and Peter and how it ties into this thread. We must simply just take what Jesus said. He said you must persevere to the end to be saved, Him and the Apostles also talked about ones that fell away and why they fell, and Jesus also talked about other ways in which it was considered as a rejection of Him.

Example is in Matthew 25, Jesus talks to those who did not do for others and cast them out for not doing so. These people believed in Jesus, but still were rejected because they rejected others.

Are maybe a little closer to this truth you revealed, was it their motives, their unbelief? in truth ar ethere not many that claim belief, yet are not believers, even if they do good works?
[h=3]1 Corinthians 13:1-3[/h]New International Version (NIV)

13 If I speak in the tongues[SUP][a][/SUP] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. [SUP]2 [/SUP]If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. [SUP]3 [/SUP]If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast,[SUP][b][/SUP] but do not have love, I gain nothing.

 

[homwardbound]

Great post, Mailman. So while Judas was called a disciple, he was not truly a disciple; thus it appears to me that there is a regular use of the word and a profound use of the word.

Now there is a good saying implying the complete forgiveness of the believer's sins. The essential man is completely cleansed of sin. But still gets his feet dirty and needs what I call wood-shed forgiveness, to avoid chastening.

He who is bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean;

Wow, from me to you, thank you for this insight about the washing of feet, as the light goes on brighter and not for to be prideful, yet even deeper in humility for me at least, again thank you to God through on this Atwood

 

[homwardbound]

Wasn't King Saul chosen and anointed by God. He started out on the right foot, but then looked elsewhere. Most certainly Adam was chosen by God and walked with Him in the cool of the day for who knows how long and He lost his way. Didn't Balaam have the word of God in his mouth, but chose money instead?

Yep and that is revealing the battle of the flesh and blood and the Spirit of God, you think?
So what did Christ do at the cross, he took yes all sin on himself and where did the sin get condemned to?

Romans 8:3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh,

So how are we then to walk, by Flesh or the Spirit of God?. i know you already know, just putting it out there, for us all to see the truth in this, praying God reveals it to all that do not know this, get revealed this

 

[homwardbound]

Abraham φίλος [friend] θεοῦ ἐκλήθη [was called]

Yes, I expect that Judas exercised the powers of an apostle. I am not sure what verse you refer to, but in both the KJV & ASV I think, the Lord Jesus called Judas "friend."
But that word is not the word for friend, but companion.

Ἑταῖρε = Hetaire = companion, comrade, not philos = friend.

The Judas kiss event:


And straightway he came to Jesus, and said, Hail, Rabbi; and kissed him. 50 And Jesus said to him, Comrade, do that for which thou art come.

Judas was a companion or comrade; Abe was a friend.

(No they weren't communists.)

So whether Judas got saved or not is a different topic, yet when Christ went to preach to the Spirits in prison, think Judas was there?
I speculate Judas saw this and beleived and went with Christ to Heaven with many others that beleived and were freed, where the Devil could do nothing about, being judged and the keys he had taken away by the risen Christ.
So all the Devil has left is fear to kill, steal and destroy, that is it
Where as perfect love casts out all fear, and so when one believes and stands in belief gets shown this perfect love and all fear is cast out, by God's perfect love by Son at the cross for them

 

[homwardbound]

For those who believe in OSAS how do you explain the scriptures in the bible that speak of ones who have fallen that were saved ?


Try to give an answer besides they were not truly saved to begin with, because even though that answer does apply to some that were mentioned in scripture it does not apply to all.

Really, How can one who is saved that has been confirmed as this by God to them ever leave, or are you saying God is not Faithful? because we are in unredeemed flesh, we can leave. We are greater than God? I think not
Born again in Spirit is greater than born of flesh and blood as god's in Adam

[h=3]Romans 8:16[/h]New International Version (NIV)

[SUP]16 [/SUP]The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children.

have you been confirmed? beg if not and stand fast as Job did, who would not curse God
To not believe god he did what he did is a curse of one's born in flesh from the womb you think and need life you think?
you decide Brother what is truth and what is not

God has confirmed me, I need no one else to do this nor do you and or anyone else, God does not change, God does just love us all that he went to the cross for us all, to give us new life after the death that cleansed us to get this new life in Spirit and truth by the resurrected Christ, either you believe this or you do not and have to do works to get this, when there is not one mankind that ever could do this on their own works ever, shown through out the First Testament and Second as well, Mankind's failure and need for new life in Spirit and truth

Job 19:25 I know that my redeemer lives, and that in the end he will stand on the earth.