Is justification by faith alone?

[Dan58]

No one can justify themselves by any means. We are justified and cleansed by Christ. So yes, we are justified via our faith in him. jmo

 

[StoneThrower]

If this were true, then if a person has no faith and is lost it is God's fault for failing to give that person faith.

Mt 8:26 Jesus should have rebuked God for failing to give those disciples sufficient faith?

Jn 3:16 "whosoever believeth" If God gives faith then how does He decide who He gives faith to and withholds faith from? Why does Jn 3:16 say "whosoever believeth"? Because it is up to the individual to choose to have faith or not, having faith is not something God decides for man. Men are commanded to believe, Acts 16:31. The imperative implies men have both the ability and responsibility to have faith. Rom 10:17 faith comes by hearing the word of God. Rom 10:9 belief comes from within the human heart upon hearing the word.

It's not possible one become part of God's elect, a Christian/disciple by doing nothing.

ordo salutis:
1) election/predestination (in Christ),
2) Atonement
3) gospel call
4) inward call
5) regeneration,
6) conversion (faith & repentance),
7) justification,
8) sanctification,
9) glorification. (Rom 8:29-30)
Man does participate, but only in acknowledgement of the General Call (or Gospel call) but notice what takes place before that and who is doing the work. By the time of the effectual call God’s grace is irresistible.
Man is dead in sin not sick and a dead man can do nothing if you are spiritual dead as the Bible teaches then you can’t respond it takes the Holy spirit working in you and opening your eyes so that you will respond.

 

[SeaBass]

again you ignore math. a dead faith is NO FAITH AT ALL, it is non existent.

if your dead, do you have any life in your mortal body? it is dead, it is not alive.

If you want to continue to twist things. That is your prerogative. But if your going to try to say faith alone IS FAITH. then you have major problems.




Yeah actually it does/. as your interpretation of James proves. You can not have it both ways. And I am not running to romans. I am doing what all men should do. testing scripture. Romans 4 says the opposite of what james says, Or does it? According to you it does. Who should I believe?? You or Paul?




where do you get this from? Paul said nothing about works. other than it does not justify. You can not say works does not justify. then say only works without faith. NOTHING in Romans 4 even hints at this. Your adding to the word of God.


No. James is speaking of hearers and not doers. People, who like the demons, believe in God. Believe he is one God, Even believe Jesus died on the cross for their sin, But have absolutely no faith in it. They have belief, not faith. Belief will not save, Only Faith will. And TRUE FAITH, vs a mere believe) PRODUCES WORK.

James is telling you seabass, to test your faith, is it real, or is it mere belief. And he tells you how to test it.

Paul is talking to people who are trying to add works of obedience to the gospel of Christ, he said these obedient works do not save, If they do, you have EARNED SALVATION, thus God lied, it was never a gift to begin with, it is a reward.

Justification is free by the grace of God, not of works, LEST ANYONE SHOULD BOAST.

Keep on boasting of your works, and being the modern day pharisee judging those of us who trust God completely to keep his promise in spite of our shortcomings.

I will keep boasting on God who saved me based on HIS WORK and his work alone, and show my faith in ALL he says by doing what I can do do the works HE SAVED ME TO DO.



um. no comment?

it is quite clear what it says, Abraham, who was before the law/ Was not justified by works, if he was, he works to earn reward. Not grace. But to him who does not work to earn reward. But has FAITH IN GOD, his FAITH IS COUNTED as righteousness.

there is NO OTHER WAY TO INTERPRET THAT.




why are you bringing the law in? There was no law in abrahams day so you can not use it in context of romans 4.

Paul makes it clear. Abraham was NOT JUSTIFIED BY WORKS, but by FAITH (ALONE).

His works were a RESULT OF HIS FAITH.

his works were a RESULT OF HIS JUSTIFICATION.

Your making justification a result of your personal work. This is of the devil, and not of God.

Again, James said "faith without works is dead". Faith only has no works so according to James faith only = dead.

James said the devils believe and tremble. The devils belief only is dead, not that their belief doesn't exist, but their belief is dead in that it is inactive, has no works.


By trying to change what Paul said in Rom 4 to "belief only justifies", that contradicts what James said. So Paul NEVER taught faith only saves for he and James do not contradict each other.

As I pointed out in my last post, James and Paul are approaching the same subject from different directions:

James - faith without works does not justify
Paul - works without faith does not justify

So the implication from both James and Paul it takes BOTH faith and obedient works to justify...either one alone cannot justify.

You post "Paul said nothing about works."

Rom 4:4,5 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

So clearly Paul does say something about works - contrary to what you posted. The issue to be resolved is what type of work is Paul talking about in v4. The type of work Paul is talking about in v4 are works of merit. IF one could work and merit his salvation then that salvation is not of grace but of debt.

So now understanding the type of work Paul is talking about, we can read verses 4 and 5 this way:

Now to him that does works of merit to earn salvation, the reward is not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that does not try to work to merit his salvation but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

So the "worketh not" of verse 5 are works of merit that Paul speaks of in v4. "Worketh not" excludes works of merit but NOT worked of obedience as Paul shows in Rom 6 "obedient unto righteousness" and that obeyed rom the heart then they were free from sin.

Furthermore, believing is a work, as Jesus said Himself in Jn 6;27-29. So anyone that says "worketh not" of v5 includes not only works of merit but includes ALL TYPES of works, then they are eliminating the work of believing and have Paul contradicting himself in this one verse.


You posted Paul makes it clear. Abraham was NOT JUSTIFIED BY WORKS, but by FAITH (ALONE).

It should be clear for all to see how you must ADD to God's word to get the verse says "faith alone"

Again, when Paul said Abraham was not justified by works, the "works" Paul is talking about are works of merit.
When James said Abraham was justified by works, he is talking about obedient works in offering Isaac as God told him to do.


So it becomes obvious that Paul and James are not talking about the same type of work. Those that try to lump all type of works together will never get what Paul or James is saying. All works are not the same for there are different types of works > some save (obedient works- James in James 2) some do not save (works of merit - Paul in Rom 4)

 

[2Thewaters]

No one can justify themselves by any means. We are justified and cleansed by Christ. So yes, we are justified via our faith in him. jmo

but not by faith alone

that would be twisting the scriptures again

the arabs have faith - alone - they wont be saved
the indians have faith in brama

that wont save them

get it?

 

[2Thewaters]

You have to have CORRECT FAITH to be saved not INCORRECT FAITH
faith MEANS - (click on the word in e-sword)

Faith means to BELIEVE SOMETHING ENOUGH TO DO IT

if you have faith in Brahma (believing in it enough to do it) that will not save you

if you have faith in Universalism (believing in it enough to do it) that will not save you

if you have faith in Yin/Yang (believing in it enough to do it) that will not save you

if you have faith in OSAS (believing in it enough to do it) that will not save you

if you have faith in predestination (believing in it enough to do it) that will not save you

if you have faith in your pastor (believing him it enough to follow him) that will not save you

if you have faith in priest (believing him it enough to folow him) that will not save you

if you have faith in presidents (believing them enough to follow themn) that will not save you

if you have faith in THE BIBLE (believing in it enough to do it) that will save you

true faith is FAITH IN EVERY WORD OF GOD

FAITH cannot save
FAITH by GRACE (BIBLE FAITH) will save you

for grace (holy spirit) always follows the bible 100%

or it is a false spirit.

 

[2Thewaters]

So
FOLLOWING THE WORD OF GOD FAITH
is the only thing that can save you.
the ONLY thing

for Jesus and his blood IS the word of God
BUT the enemy has learned that he can even nullify the word of GOD!

all you have to do to nullify is add some tradition

Mar_7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

God promises if you add any tradition any man made thing
even a little bit
the saving power is nullified

Abel was told thow to worship
He was blessed and saved
Cain added beautiful fruits and vegetables
Cain perished.

its all baout PRIDe and saying they know MORe than God
and all their righteousness they ahve done is forgotten... and they are lost.

christman easter Mid summer solstice tammuz halloween sun god worship day
crackers fonts, praying to the dead idils and everything not in the Bible
will nullify your faith
to nothing.

 

[crossnote]

''if you have faith in THE BIBLE (believing in it enough to do it) that will save you''.

Just 'how much' belief? Just 'how much' doing?

 

[2Thewaters]

Pro_29:18 Where there is no vision, the people perish: but he that keepeth the law, happy is he.

Hos_4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

it DOES matter what you believe and what you read

false faith will kill you.
True faith in 100% word of God will save and sanctify (change) you.

 

[2Thewaters]

I cant do anything
it is 100% consecration to Jesus

that is what your Bible says
give your whole mind and soul and life to Jesus and he works in you

 

[SeaBass]

ordo salutis:
1) election/predestination (in Christ),
2) Atonement
3) gospel call
4) inward call
5) regeneration,
6) conversion (faith & repentance),
7) justification,
8) sanctification,
9) glorification. (Rom 8:29-30)
Man does participate, but only in acknowledgement of the General Call (or Gospel call) but notice what takes place before that and who is doing the work. By the time of the effectual call God’s grace is irresistible.
Man is dead in sin not sick and a dead man can do nothing if you are spiritual dead as the Bible teaches then you can’t respond it takes the Holy spirit working in you and opening your eyes so that you will respond.

You order is not biblically possible. You have men "in Christ" BEFORE men hear the gospel, BEFORE men have faith, BEFORE men repent, BEFORE men are justified, BEFORE men are sanctified.

God's elect/predestined is NOT unconditionally, randomly selected individuals, but a group that is called "Christian". So man must first hear the gospel, have faith, repent, confess and be baptized then they are placed in the pre-elected/predestined GROUP "Christian" that is "in Christ" justified and sanctified.

Spiritually dead men can do something. Peter's listeners in Acts 2, while spiritually dead, were able to hear and understand Peter's sermon and ask what they must do to be saved, again, all while spiritually dead. The same is true for the jailer, while spiritually dead, asked what he must do to be saved. The eunuch, while spiritually dead, was reading the from a prophet of the OT trying to find out about this Christ that the prophet wrote about, again while spiritually dead.

 

[2Thewaters]

Jesus will only do what the word says

you will find yourself desiring the word and follwoing all of it
and Jesus does in you

Joh_5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Again, James said "faith without works is dead". Faith only has no works so according to James faith only = dead.

i feel like I am going around and around.

faith which is dead is no faith at all. it is NOT faith alone, it is not faith PERIOD,

end of story.

 

[2Thewaters]

To be born again by the WORD OF GOD
is to be CREATED ANEW

you dont want to do anything bad anymore
it is a growth each week

this will not happen on sunday
cant
for God cant lie

Jer_31:33 But this shall be the NEW covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; US
After those days, NOW saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts,
and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

this can only happen during the BAWRAK

look it up
BAWRAK can only happen on Sabbath

 

[SeaBass]

''if you have faith in THE BIBLE (believing in it enough to do it) that will save you''.

Just 'how much' belief? Just 'how much' doing?

Why ask this forum this question when bible tells one what he must do to become a Christian and what the Christian must do to keep from falling away?

 

[2Thewaters]

thisWhat is the will of GOD?



Act_13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:
Rom_1:10 Making request, if by any means now at length I might have a prosperous journey by the will of God to come unto you.
Rom_8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
Rom_12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Rom_15:32 That I may come unto you with joy by the will of God, and may with you be refreshed.
1Co_1:1 Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
2Co_1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:
2Co_8:5 And this they did, not as we hoped, but first gave their own selves to the Lord, and unto us by the will of God.
Gal_1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:
Eph_1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
Eph_6:6 Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart;
Col_1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timotheus our brother,
Col_4:12 Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.
1Th_4:3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
1Th_5:18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.
2Ti_1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,
Heb_10:36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
1Pe_2:15 For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:
1Pe_3:17 For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.
1Pe_4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
1Pe_4:19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.
1Jn_2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.



Psa_40:8
I delight to do thy will, O my God:
yea, thy law is within my heart.

 

[SeaBass]

i feel like I am going around and around.

faith which is dead is no faith at all. it is NOT faith alone, it is not faith PERIOD,

end of story.

Again, James said the devils believe and tremble. The devils belief is dead not in the sense it does not exist but is dead in that it is inactive, has no works.

So James and Paul, both being inspired writers, are correct in saying one is justified by an obedient faith not by works of merit.

 

[crossnote]

You order is not biblically possible. You have men "in Christ" BEFORE men hear the gospel, BEFORE men have faith, BEFORE men repent, BEFORE men are justified, BEFORE men are sanctified.

God's elect/predestined is NOT unconditionally, randomly selected individuals, but a group that is called "Christian". So man must first hear the gospel, have faith, repent, confess and be baptized then they are placed in the pre-elected/predestined GROUP "Christian" that is "in Christ" justified and sanctified.

Spiritually dead men can do something. Peter's listeners in Acts 2, while spiritually dead, were able to hear and understand Peter's sermon and ask what they must do to be saved, again, all while spiritually dead. The same is true for the jailer, while spiritually dead, asked what he must do to be saved. The eunuch, while spiritually dead, was reading the from a prophet of the OT trying to find out about this Christ that the prophet wrote about, again while spiritually dead.

Sounds like 'in Christ' to me...
Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

 

[2Thewaters]

The law is not to save

it is to show wether you are born again

no man can be born again who is breaking the law

and no man can keep the law

so what shall we do brethren?

give Jesus your whole life

and HE will keep the law in you

so simple

how do you know true christians

they keep the bible every word and when they find a verse they arent doing they say

OOOOPSY
sorry
I will do this for Jesus too.

forgive
and Jesus does
and they grow and change and follow a bit more
and that is sanctification

that is gods will for us

for this is the will of god even your sanctification...

 

[2Thewaters]

in christ means in the word of God

test yourself to see if you be in christ
in the word of God

REMEMBER

sunday is not in the word of God

 

[crossnote]

Why ask this forum this question when bible tells one what he must do to become a Christian and what the Christian must do to keep from falling away?

My question did not involve 'what?' but 'how much?'.