It Is satanic Heresy to Deny Eternal Security
- Thread starter Atwood
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I am sure that you will think of something. You could go for the Gold and make it a high "quality" sin. An individual that has been born again in the Lord need not fear being separated from Him as there is no power in the universe that is strong enough to snatch the believer from His strangle-hold on someone who has the love of the Lord living inside of them. I don't believe that Jesus is a liar. If He was then I would go for all of the gusto too. How does it feel to live in fear? Please tell me so that I can understand what you are saying. Personally, I have no use for that emotion.
E
Romans 8:15
For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.”
2 Timothy 1:7
For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind.
If you do not have a sound mind, But fear.
1. God is not your abba Father
2. God has not given yuo his spirit of adoption
3. God has not given you the spirit of power, and love and a sound mind.
1 John 4:17
Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world.
If you do not have confidence to face God on judgment day (Based on his love) You have not had Gods love perfected in you. which occures the moment of salvation
For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.”
2 Timothy 1:7
For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind.
If you do not have a sound mind, But fear.
1. God is not your abba Father
2. God has not given yuo his spirit of adoption
3. God has not given you the spirit of power, and love and a sound mind.
1 John 4:17
Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world.
If you do not have confidence to face God on judgment day (Based on his love) You have not had Gods love perfected in you. which occures the moment of salvation
E
Whats amazing. Is children of God do not even have to fear this.
For who has power greater than God. that can destroy our soul and send us to Hell? Not even satan has this power over God. Scripture says God broke the power of satan with the cross.
One day some people may learn the complete power of the cross. And how it defeats ALL fear.
For who has power greater than God. that can destroy our soul and send us to Hell? Not even satan has this power over God. Scripture says God broke the power of satan with the cross.
One day some people may learn the complete power of the cross. And how it defeats ALL fear.
The thing is a mature believer's life will start to reflect the love of the Lord in the progression of spiritual growth. There will be no desire to lead a sinful life. We all stumble at times but the Lord is quick to break our fall. We say we are sorry and then we begin to move forward with the Lord by our side on our spiritual journey in life. What you have said is exactly true, this type of believer will be saved by the skin of the teeth. Salvation is assured, however there will be no crowns to place at the Lord's feet when we see Him face to face for the first time. This is sad but true.
You surprise me sir, by agreeing with what I said. I thought that would step on more than a few doctrinal toes. Most don't agree with the sin, sickness relationship.
It is true though, that under certain conditions, we are chastened, even to death, but not condemned with the world to eternal punishment.
I didn't find any verses that use the words "lose faith" or "lose salvation" but I did find these which seem to point to something similar.
1 Timothy 4:1 - The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.
Revelation 22:19 - And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
2 Peter 2:20-22 - If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.
2 Peter 3:17 - Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.
Hebrews 6:4-6 - It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
Hebrews 3:12-14 - See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.
1 Timothy 1:18-20 - Timothy, my son, I give you this instruction in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by following them you may fight the good fight, holding on to faith and a good conscience. Some have rejected these and so have shipwrecked their faith. Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.
1 Corinthians 9:27 - No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.
Romans 11:20-22 - But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.
Luke 12:46 - The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers.
Atwood, have fun trying to swat those flies.
1 Timothy 4:1 - The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.
Revelation 22:19 - And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
2 Peter 2:20-22 - If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.
2 Peter 3:17 - Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.
Hebrews 6:4-6 - It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
Hebrews 3:12-14 - See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.
1 Timothy 1:18-20 - Timothy, my son, I give you this instruction in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by following them you may fight the good fight, holding on to faith and a good conscience. Some have rejected these and so have shipwrecked their faith. Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.
1 Corinthians 9:27 - No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.
Romans 11:20-22 - But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.
Luke 12:46 - The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers.
Atwood, have fun trying to swat those flies.
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"Crowns" = Rewards, Not Salvation
One of the canards vs eternal security is a passage about the possibility of losing a "crown." This is typical of such canards since said passage neither says "lose salvation," nor "lose faith." Actually "crowns" can be lost, for they are rewards for good works, not salvation at all. And believers will be judged for their works.
The term "crown" in this context is stephanos, which actually refers to a victor's wreath in an athletic contest. And the Bible uses it as figurative of Christians' rewards. I put suggestive titles:
Crown 1 = The Incorruptible Crown, 1 Cor 9
And I do all things for the gospel’s sake, that I may be a joint partaker thereof. Know ye not that they that run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? Even so run; that ye may attain. And every man that striveth in the games exerciseth self-control in all things. Now they do it to receive a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. I therefore so run, as not uncertainly; so fight I, as not beating the air: but I buffet my body, and bring it into bondage: lest by any means, after that I have preached to others, I myself should be disqualified.
Crown 2 = Evangelist's Crown Philip 4
Wherefore, my brethren beloved and longed for, my joy and crown, so stand fast in the Lord, my beloved.
1 Th 2
For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of glorying? Are not even ye, before our Lord Jesus at his coming? For ye are our glory and our joy.
Crown 3 = Crown of Righteousness / Loving His Appearing 2 Tim 4
2 Tim 4
I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith: henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give to me at that day; and not to me only, but also to all them that have loved his appearing.
Crown 4 Crown of Life / Martyr's Crown James 1
Blessed is the man that endureth temptation; for when he hath been approved, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord promised to them that love him.
Rev 2
Fear not the things which thou art about to suffer: behold, the devil is about to cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days. Be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee the crown of life.
Crown 5 = Elder/Pastor's Crown 1 Pet 4
The elders therefore among you I exhort, who am a fellow-elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, who am also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: Tend the flock of God which is among you, exercising the oversight, not of constraint, but willingly, according to the will of God; nor yet for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; neither as lording it over the charge allotted to you, but making yourselves ensamples to the flock. And when the chief Shepherd shall be manifested, ye shall receive the crown of glory that fadeth not away.
Crown 6 = Keeping His Word Rev 3
Because thou didst keep the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of trial, that hour which is to come upon the whole world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. I come quickly: hold fast that which thou hast, that no one take thy crown.
Use of the Crowns: Rev 4
And round about the throne were four and twenty thrones: and upon the thrones I saw four and twenty elders sitting, arrayed in white garments; and on their heads crowns of gold.
One of the canards vs eternal security is a passage about the possibility of losing a "crown." This is typical of such canards since said passage neither says "lose salvation," nor "lose faith." Actually "crowns" can be lost, for they are rewards for good works, not salvation at all. And believers will be judged for their works.
The term "crown" in this context is stephanos, which actually refers to a victor's wreath in an athletic contest. And the Bible uses it as figurative of Christians' rewards. I put suggestive titles:
Crown 1 = The Incorruptible Crown, 1 Cor 9
And I do all things for the gospel’s sake, that I may be a joint partaker thereof. Know ye not that they that run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? Even so run; that ye may attain. And every man that striveth in the games exerciseth self-control in all things. Now they do it to receive a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. I therefore so run, as not uncertainly; so fight I, as not beating the air: but I buffet my body, and bring it into bondage: lest by any means, after that I have preached to others, I myself should be disqualified.
Crown 2 = Evangelist's Crown Philip 4
Wherefore, my brethren beloved and longed for, my joy and crown, so stand fast in the Lord, my beloved.
1 Th 2
For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of glorying? Are not even ye, before our Lord Jesus at his coming? For ye are our glory and our joy.
Crown 3 = Crown of Righteousness / Loving His Appearing 2 Tim 4
2 Tim 4
I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith: henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give to me at that day; and not to me only, but also to all them that have loved his appearing.
Crown 4 Crown of Life / Martyr's Crown James 1
Blessed is the man that endureth temptation; for when he hath been approved, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord promised to them that love him.
Rev 2
Fear not the things which thou art about to suffer: behold, the devil is about to cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days. Be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee the crown of life.
Crown 5 = Elder/Pastor's Crown 1 Pet 4
The elders therefore among you I exhort, who am a fellow-elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, who am also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: Tend the flock of God which is among you, exercising the oversight, not of constraint, but willingly, according to the will of God; nor yet for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; neither as lording it over the charge allotted to you, but making yourselves ensamples to the flock. And when the chief Shepherd shall be manifested, ye shall receive the crown of glory that fadeth not away.
Crown 6 = Keeping His Word Rev 3
Because thou didst keep the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of trial, that hour which is to come upon the whole world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. I come quickly: hold fast that which thou hast, that no one take thy crown.
Use of the Crowns: Rev 4
And round about the throne were four and twenty thrones: and upon the thrones I saw four and twenty elders sitting, arrayed in white garments; and on their heads crowns of gold.
Atwood begins this conversation by stating that if a person does not possess the faith to believe in eternal security then he or she does not possess the faith to be saved, insisting that one must believe eternal security in order to be saved.
Atwood's entire opening argument places a condition on both salvation and eternal security, that condition being that one must have faith in order to possess either salvation or eternal security.
I enter the conversation and basically agree with a primary aspect of Atwoods opening arguement, that one must first have faith in order to partake of these precious promises of Christ and, since one must possess faith in order to partake, then both salvation and eternal security are indeed CONDITIONAL.
Atwood then changes his position by claiming that eternal security is unconditional, yet he continues to insist that one must first believe (ie. have faith) in the promise in order to partake of the promise thus placing a condition on that which he pridefully boasts is unconditional.
Atwood, by placing a condition on that which you boast is unconditional, you are contradicting yourself and, in doing so, have rendered your own arguement null and void.
Atwood's entire opening argument places a condition on both salvation and eternal security, that condition being that one must have faith in order to possess either salvation or eternal security.
I enter the conversation and basically agree with a primary aspect of Atwoods opening arguement, that one must first have faith in order to partake of these precious promises of Christ and, since one must possess faith in order to partake, then both salvation and eternal security are indeed CONDITIONAL.
Atwood then changes his position by claiming that eternal security is unconditional, yet he continues to insist that one must first believe (ie. have faith) in the promise in order to partake of the promise thus placing a condition on that which he pridefully boasts is unconditional.
Atwood, by placing a condition on that which you boast is unconditional, you are contradicting yourself and, in doing so, have rendered your own arguement null and void.
LOL fly-swatting. And you won't find lose faith or lose salvation.
1 Timothy 4:1 - The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.
"But the Spirit saith expressly, that in later times some shall fall away from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons,"
That's the word for apostasy, a reality explained in 1 John 2; apostasy proves never saved. Not "abandon." These people never had trust in the Lord Jesus -- they went away from "the faith," the body of doctrine, the endorsement of which never saves anyway. Demons believe & tremble as to facts.
Revelation 22:19 - And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
God has made provision for the salvation of all men: God so loved the world that He gave. But to receive salvation, one must believe, trust the Lord Jesus as Savior (not one who just gives a chance at salvation).
2 Peter 2:20-22 - If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.
Worldly corruption may be avoided for a while by joining a church without being saved. Following Christian morality might keep you from STD's etc.
2 Peter 3:17 - Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.
"Ye therefore, beloved, knowing these things beforehand, beware lest, being carried away with the error of the wicked, ye fall from your own stedfastness. But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ." Nothing about losing salvation.
BDAG Lexicon: 2. firm commitment to conviction or belief, steadfastness τοῦ στ. ἐκπίπτειν lose one’s firmness of commitment 2 Pt 3:17.
Hebrews 6:4-6 - It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
Keep quoting through 6:9 where the passage is explained as not referring to persons who are saved.
Hebrews 3:12-14 - See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.
If you have an unbelieving heart you are not saved. Eternal security is the doctrine that believers do endure to the end.
1 Timothy 1:18-20 - Timothy, my son, I give you this instruction in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by following them you may fight the good fight, holding on to faith and a good conscience. Some have rejected these and so have shipwrecked their faith. Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.
"holding faith and a good conscience; which some having thrust from them made shipwreck concerning the faith:" The word "their" is not in the text.
1 Corinthians 9:27 - No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.
Crowns, victor's wreaths are for works. This is not salvation. I just did a long post on this.
Romans 11:20-22 - But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.
I recently posted on this. See those posts. Rom 11 is about movements in age, eschatology, not individual salvation. Gentiles & Israel. The future of Israel. The Gentiles as a whole are called "thou," 2nd person singular. Rom 11 also has a stiff dose of election in it! When you read on you find that the gifts & calling of God are irrevocable. General rule for such passages, read on a little further for explanation.
Luke 12:46 - The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers.
There is no mention of salvation, or losing salvation, or losing faith. It is a parable. You seem to be using free translations. Check everything against the more literal ASV 1901. "appoint his portion with the unfaithful."
1 Timothy 4:1 - The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.
"But the Spirit saith expressly, that in later times some shall fall away from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons,"
That's the word for apostasy, a reality explained in 1 John 2; apostasy proves never saved. Not "abandon." These people never had trust in the Lord Jesus -- they went away from "the faith," the body of doctrine, the endorsement of which never saves anyway. Demons believe & tremble as to facts.
Revelation 22:19 - And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
God has made provision for the salvation of all men: God so loved the world that He gave. But to receive salvation, one must believe, trust the Lord Jesus as Savior (not one who just gives a chance at salvation).
2 Peter 2:20-22 - If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.
Worldly corruption may be avoided for a while by joining a church without being saved. Following Christian morality might keep you from STD's etc.
2 Peter 3:17 - Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.
"Ye therefore, beloved, knowing these things beforehand, beware lest, being carried away with the error of the wicked, ye fall from your own stedfastness. But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ." Nothing about losing salvation.
BDAG Lexicon: 2. firm commitment to conviction or belief, steadfastness τοῦ στ. ἐκπίπτειν lose one’s firmness of commitment 2 Pt 3:17.
Hebrews 6:4-6 - It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
Keep quoting through 6:9 where the passage is explained as not referring to persons who are saved.
Hebrews 3:12-14 - See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.
If you have an unbelieving heart you are not saved. Eternal security is the doctrine that believers do endure to the end.
1 Timothy 1:18-20 - Timothy, my son, I give you this instruction in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by following them you may fight the good fight, holding on to faith and a good conscience. Some have rejected these and so have shipwrecked their faith. Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.
"holding faith and a good conscience; which some having thrust from them made shipwreck concerning the faith:" The word "their" is not in the text.
1 Corinthians 9:27 - No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.
Crowns, victor's wreaths are for works. This is not salvation. I just did a long post on this.
Romans 11:20-22 - But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.
I recently posted on this. See those posts. Rom 11 is about movements in age, eschatology, not individual salvation. Gentiles & Israel. The future of Israel. The Gentiles as a whole are called "thou," 2nd person singular. Rom 11 also has a stiff dose of election in it! When you read on you find that the gifts & calling of God are irrevocable. General rule for such passages, read on a little further for explanation.
Luke 12:46 - The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers.
There is no mention of salvation, or losing salvation, or losing faith. It is a parable. You seem to be using free translations. Check everything against the more literal ASV 1901. "appoint his portion with the unfaithful."
Nonsense, I haven't changed my POV at all. To speak of eternal security as conditional is an oxymoron. You speak of insecure security! Let us not play with words, but do some serious trusting of the Savior.
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved.
Trust Him as SAvior, not as one who gives you a chance.
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.
Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life,
And I shall dwell in the House of the LORD forever.