Free Gifts Come With Conditions....

[dcontroversal]

sure, PM me. and since i'm the one giving you the blueberries, you know what?

i'll pay the postage too.

HAHAHA NO doubt......the analogy is excellent and obvious....the truth always blares louder than the biggest heresies...

 

[Flamingspirit]

You are spouting nothing but philosophy and your own ideology. You have not posted any scripture to support your claims and the reason is that scripture doesn't support them. Not only does it not support them, it directly contradicts them.

For what specifically do I need to provide scripture for? I have an answer for all.

Ecclesiastes 12:7-8 contradicts this. So does Luke 16:22-31

Ecclesiastes 12:7-8
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Vanity of vanities, saith the preacher; all is vanity.

Luke 16:22-31


[SUP]22 [/SUP]And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
[SUP]28 [/SUP]For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
[SUP]30 [/SUP]And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
[SUP]31 [/SUP]And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

How does these prove me wrong? About everlasting torment? Abraham could not bridge the gap, but I know of One who can!

Wrong again:

Revelation 20:14 - And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

DEATH AND HELL! Are those people? No!! These concepts of life, as it continues to have less and less to do with actual life itself is again being destroyed. And again it is called the second death. Why? Because it is only appointed for men to die ONCE! 1, number uno, etc...

Romans 6:8

[SUP]8 [/SUP]Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

WE ARE DEAD WITH CHRIST! As is appointed, every man will die once. So now that we have all died, how then are we still living????

Galatians 2:20

[SUP]20 [/SUP]I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

So now in saying that, we get to the other verse you posted:

Revelation 21:8 - But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Now to quote what I said earlier in addition to this verse.

These evil ideas and imaginations of men such as the most prevalent one in the idea of money and barter is part of what the bible calls the second death. This and these types of ideas, imaginations and thought processes is being destroyed but because we adhere to them still, we die as well.

There is no more need to die in the midst of a risen Savior. But when we as a whole let millions starve to death because they simply don't have the money to buy food, then we too will experience this death.

Then you are calling Jesus a liar:

Matthew 25:46 - And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

2 Thessalonians 1:9 - Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;


False doctrine:

Revelation 14:10 - The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
:11 - And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Revelation 19:20 - And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

All of us died with Christ. So it is not us that lives, but Christ that lives in us. So then it is US who are cast ALIVE into the fire BURNING WITH BRIMSTONE!

Now the bible states that GOD IS A CONSUMING FIRE (I hope I don't need the verse for this too). What does this mean? God is a consuming fire which tortures those being cast alive forever, burning with brimstone. We don't see no flames, so what is going on?

Proverbs 25:21-22

[SUP]21 [/SUP]If thine enemy be hungry, give him bread to eat; and if he be thirsty, give him water to drink:


[SUP]22 [/SUP]For thou shalt heap coals of fire upon his head, and the Lord shall reward thee.

Romans 12:17-21


[SUP]17 [/SUP]Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

If you, being a sinner, is saved by Christ, is it a good thing that He saves all sinners? If you and whoever does not think so then it is you all that is being tormented, cast alive into the lake of fire, in which I and others will overcome evil by doing good!

 

[Nick01]

it is still your puppy. It is still my salvation. when I stand in front of God. i will either have many rewards. or watch my rewards burn as wood hay and straw (depending on what I did with my salvation) but as paul says, I am still saved, at that time, even though as through fire.

if I offer you a gift, and you mock me by saying you need to work for it. you can not believe I would give you something for free, I will not give you your gift. I will wait till you get on your knees and say you give, You will take the gift you want so badly.

sadly. Many will stand in front of Christ thinking they got the gift. only to realise God did not give it to them, because they did not trust him, and mocked him by trying to work for it, because they refused to believe God would give it to them for nothing.

Not if animal welfare takes it away...

I see your point, and I agree with it to a point. But the reality is that Jesus talks about knowing people by their fruit. A good tree produces only good fruit, and a bad tress bad fruit. You cannot be a good tree (have the gift of grace), and deny that gift by producing the exact same fruit you did before. This does not mean you must live perfectly, and it does not mean you are working for the gift. You are merely changed by it, and live in the light of it.

So yes, there will be those who get to the judgement seat, thinking they worked there way in, and will be turned away, because they did not trust in the Lord Jesus entirely for their salvation. But by the same token, there will be those who will turn up, feeling secure in their status as God's children, feeling that there was no way they could not have that status (the failing of the Jews for much of their history), only to be told they were never known.

It is not enough to claim special status - if you are a Child of God, a disciple of Jesus, you live accordingly. If you are given a puppy and treat it like trash, you're living as if you never had the puppy in the first place, you're denying the good things the puppy could bring. Jesus yearns to say to people "Well done, good and faithful servant" because that is how we earn salvation. He wants to say it because it is GOOD.

 

[crossnote]

Rom 6:

Paul said those Romans had been freed from sin/justified, a free gift of God, v23. Yet this free gift came with the condition of obeying from the heart that form of doctrine. Had they had done no obeying (faith only) they would have remained in their sins/unjustified. Therefore they must have obeyed from the heart in order to receive the free gift of God and obeying in no way earned them God's free gift.

''Obeying from the heart'' is faith/truly believing that form of doctrine...

 

[SeaBass]

Amen salvation is all of God!

If man has no part or role in his own salvation, then how does God decide whom He will or will not save?

Acts 2:40; 1 Tim 4:16; Phil 2:12 man does have a role in his salvation. Just as God freely sent the Hebrews manna, their role was in gathering in order to be filled. Even though God freely sent them manna they would have remained hungry if they did not fulfill their role in gathering the manna.

Man's role in salvation is obeying Christ Heb 5:9 and this role earns nothing as gathering the manna earned nothing but is simply a condition attached to a free gift.

 

[SeaBass]

according to your example you can not. You say they have the condition of taking it. thus according to you. what you just claimed is impossible.

Basically, You just proved me right. thank you.

thats the problem with using flawed examples. It always comes back to bite ya you know where!

You have the flawed, illogical argument here. You are still floundering around trying to solve the problem in finding a way for the Hebrews to eat the free manna without them having to work to gather it. When will you solve this problem you have?

 

[SeaBass]

Your still laboring and have not found it. You prove how hard it is to find the truth, and why one must labor to find it.

Jesus said, It is the work of God we believe in the one he sent, that was his response when the people asked what WORK they must do to recieve that food.

End of story.

Jesus did not tell God to labor for everlasting life. Jesus told His listeners to labor for the meat that endures unto everlasting life which He gives.

Just like the free manna required labor to gather it yet the gathering did not earn anything, the free gift of everlasting life require labor but the labor earns nothing.

Instead of delaying and twisting things, solve your problem in how to get the Hebrews eating the free manna WITHOUT them first having to conditionally work to gather it.

 

[SeaBass]

Bad analogy of yours was my point. The puppy is the Holy Spirit. He takes care of you and trains you.

You avoid the point being made. Does your work in caring for the puppy mean the puppy was not given to you for free?

 

[SeaBass]

It must have sucked to grow up in your house as all the gifts I ever (received) were free gifts!

So God was wrong in having the Hebrews work to gather His free gift He sent to them?

 

[SeaBass]

Under your definition, all gifts require work and therefore the word gift is meaningless.

Some gifts are given unconditionally other gifts, as the manna, come with conditions. The gift of salvation is a free gift that comes with the condition of obedience Heb 5:9.

Since the Hebrews had to gather the manna, how does that make the manna anything less than a free gift?

 

[SeaBass]

'Believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved'.
What faith plus ?

Jesus did not say believe only. "Faith only" blinders blinds people to where Jesus said one must repent, Lk 13:3,5; confess, Mt 10:32,33 and be baptized Mk 16:16 to be saved. So Jesus made repentance, confession and baptism as equally necessary to salvation as belief.

Belief>>>>>>>>>>saves
repentance>>>>>>saves
confession>>>>>>>saves
baptism>>>>>>>>saves

Since there is just one way to be saved then a biblical belief includes repentance confession and baptism and a belief is dead that does not have them.

No one can cherry-pick their way through the gospel and end up with the whole gospel truth.

 

[SeaBass]

Did God supply Israel's need? Yes. Did those who ate the manna still die? Yes. Could God have sustained Israel without manna? Yes.

Naaman had the expectation of most men. They know of God but do not yet know God for Who He is. Naaman wanted healed and figured God could heal him on the spot. Which God could have done of course but for the testimony of His word Naaman went to wash himself. Naaman received mercy. Naaman glorified God. Naaman still grew old and died.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

The Hebrews while in the wilderness became hungry and God gave them for free manna to eat. Yet to satisfy their hunger required they do the work of gathering the manna. Their work in gathering the manna did not take away from the "freeness" of God's gift to them, therefore the work of gathering earned them nothing.

Such a simple concept young people can understand yet adults allow themselves to blinded to it for no other reason than an allegiance to a man-made teaching.

 

[john832]

'Believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved'.
What faith plus ?

Believing on Christ entails more than this...

Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

The demons believe in Christ, in fact they know Him right well, He created them but they are not saved.

 

[SeaBass]

The problem with the story of the manna is that most do not understand it. Jesus gave you its true meaning when He said that He was the TRUE bread (manna) from Heaven. Therefore following Jesus with that same allegory, manna was not just bread wafers that fell from the sky, but in its spiritual application, the people were fed with the words of the various prophets moved by the Holy Spirit. Having ate those various teachings and laws given by them, they still died. Eating the words of Jesus however, we will not die.

Jn 6:31ff

Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat. Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world. Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread. And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.



Just as the Hebrews had to work in going and gathering the manna, if one desires the manna Jesus has then one must obediently come (present tense) to Christ. Doing nothing/faith only = no manna

 

[john832]

'Believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved'.
What faith plus ?

Yet Christ said we have to be baptized...

Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

And to receive the Holy Spirit is anything required?

Act 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

 

[SeaBass]

There is no condition on something that is free from God. No man chose to be born, neither can he refuse the gift of the sun or the rain. So is it with salvation.

I started this thread out with example after example of God's free gifts coming with conditions. Did not the Hebrews have to gather the free manna? Did not Naaman have to dip 7 times to have the free gift of healing? Did not the blind man have to dip in the pool for his free healing?

Jn 6:27 Jesus said to labor for the meat that endures unto everlasting life which he gives. Jesus GIVES everlasting life so it is freely given but one must labor for it and the laboring earns nothing just as the gathering did not earn the free manna or the dipping earned the free healing.

 

[SeaBass]

The only condition that comes with a free gift is that we receive it as freely as it was given. Christ paid the price and obtained eternal redemption for us that we might receive that free gift of eternal life by faith with no restrictions or limitations and without any meritorious works on our part. This is why being saved by grace through faith is a single act of believing with no attachments to follow up. When Jesus said, 'It is finished' He was declaring to the Father that sinful man could be accepted based on the work provided by Christ on the cross with no strings attached. Salvation was going to be a pure act of mercy and grace for the sinner who would simple believe and put his trust in the finished work of the cross.

There would be no law to follow or keep. There would be no acts or deeds of righteousness to perform. There would be no trusting in the goodness of man. There would be no penance needed, but only an exercise of faith in the shed blood and completed work of Calvary. That faith exercise in the work of God through Christ would be enough to save and cleanse the sinner from all sin. It would be enough to perfectly justify that sinner forever. It would make way for God's imputed righteousness to enter in along with the Holy Spirit. It would be sufficient in providing eternal life to keep the sinner from perishing. It would allow God to remove wrath and condemnation from the sinner. It would allow the sinner to be sealed until the day of redemption when that sinner would receive the redemption of his body as God's precious possession.

The only condition that God demands is that we freely exercise faith and believe with all our heart in the work of the cross through Jesus Christ and Him crucified.

The free gift of manna did not come with the condition of gathering it?
Naaman's free gift of healing did not come with the condition of dipping?

The free gift of salvation comes with the condition of obedience to Christ Heb 5:9 and the obedience earns nothing no more than the gathering or dipping earned anything.

 

[john832]

The free gift of manna did not come with the condition of gathering it?
Naaman's free gift of healing did not come with the condition of dipping?

The free gift of salvation comes with the condition of obedience to Christ Heb 5:9 and the obedience earns nothing no more than the gathering or dipping earned anything.

Excellent.

 

[SeaBass]

SeaBass, in my garden the blueberries are ripe.

i set a mouthful aside for you. they are yours, a gift.

if you don't come to me and eat them soon, they will rot and be eaten by bugs.

they will rot because they are yours, and no one else will eat them.

whatever you choose to do, the blueberries are yours. they are not yours conditionally, only if you come to get them,
and they do not cease to be yours if you do not come and eat them.
they are yours to do whatever you wish with to do with them.
gather them, ignore them, give them to someone else -- it doesn't matter. they are yours.

if you don't accept them, they will be given to insects. but the insects will be eating your blueberries, all the same.

I did nothing to deserve them, but out of your good grace to me your are giving me blueberries. Yet to get those free blueberries I must conditionally do the work of coming to you (as one must come to Christ for manna; Jn 6:35). If I do not do this work of coming and getting the free berries I will never get them even though they are free. Yet I do the work in going and getting the berries and that work means I earned them so they were not freely given by you to me?

 

[SeaBass]

Hey...don't waste them on somebody who would loose them anyway as he would have to do a week of work to gain them...I will take them free.....you want my address to overnight them?

Did the fact posthuman put the condition of me having to go to him and get the berries go over people's head here? If I do not do the work of going and getting the berries will I get the free berries? No. Does my going and getting them mean I earned them? No.