It Is satanic Heresy to Deny Eternal Security

[kennethcadwell]

Because man interferes with Gods will in our life. Man has always interfered and still to this day interfere, we are not puppets. The Holy Spirit is our guide, and man can choose not to listen to that guidance. So like I said before it is not our Lord that casts us away, we lose it for ourselves.

So if you can be cut off of our salvation, how come Jesus says he will by no means cast us out?

 

[newbirth]

Re: E S in the Psalms; Ps 73

4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. NKJV

katargeo:
kat(a) = thoroughly
a- =not
erg = work (e disappears added to a)
eo = verb ending

made thoroughly not working

BDAG:
1. to cause someth. to be unproductive, use up, exhaust, waste
of a tree κ. τὴν γῆν Lk 13:7


2. to cause someth. to lose its power or effectiveness, invalidate, make powerless fig. extension of 1
make ineffective, nullify
τὴν πίστιν τοῦ θεοῦ God’s fidelity Ro 3:3.
ἐπαγγελίαν Gal 3:17; cp. Ro 4:14;
τὰ ὄντα κ. nullify the things that (actually) exist 1 Cor 1:28.
τὸν νόμον make the law invalid Eph 2:15; cp. Ro 3:31


3. to cause someth. to come to an end or to be no longer in existence, abolish, wipe out, set aside τὶ someth.
τὰ τοῦ νηπίου set aside childish ways 1 Cor 13:11.

Of God or Christ:
God will do away with both stomach and food 6:13;
bring to an end πᾶσαν ἀρχήν, ἐξουσίαν, δύναμιν 15:24.

τὸν ἄνομον 2 Th 2:8.

τὸν θάνατον break the power of death 2 Ti 1:10;
pass. 1 Cor 15:26
τὸν τὸ κράτος ἔχοντα τοῦ θανάτου destroy the one who has power over death Hb 2:14.

ἵνα καταργηθῇ τὸ σῶμα τ. ἁμαρτίας in order that the sinful body may be done away with Ro 6:6.

In 2 Cor 3:14 the subject may be ἡ παλαιὰ διαθήκη or, more probably (despite some grammatical considerations),
κάλυμμα; in the latter case the mng. is remove.
—Pass. cease, pass away προφητεία, γνῶσις [=prophecy, knowledge] 1 Cor 13:8.

τὸ ἐκ μέρους what is imperfect vs. 10.

ἄρα κατήργηται τὸ σκάνδαλον τοῦ σταυροῦ the cross has ceased to be an obstacle Gal 5:11.

καταργούμενος doomed to perish
of the ἄρχοντες τοῦ αἰῶνος τούτου 1 Cor 2:6.

Of the radiance on Moses’ face 2 Cor 3:7.

Subst. τὸ καταργούμενον what is transitory vss. 11, 13.


4. to cause the release of someone from an obligation (one has nothing more to do with it),
be discharged, be released.

Severed is a misleading translation to the extent that katargeo does not refer to cutting something off, like a limb of a tree or an arm from a body.

The word does not imply that the one who would be justified by law used to be part of Christ & no longer is. But if you try to justified by the law (by obedience), then you cut yourself off / make yourself discharged from Christ's saving power. He is not your Savior then; you are your alleged savior.

NewB, it appears to me that you with your works salvation fit precisely into this verse. Am I wrong?

here is another proving guile.....responding to throw off the issue with greek verb and lies. How can the word not imply that one who was severed from Christ was not part of Christ. He cannot respond to the second part of the statement.
I can't see how someone can be severed if they were not a part of ...nor can one fall from somewhere he was not....

Ye are severed from Christ, ye who would be justified by the law; ye are fallen away from grace. For we through the Spirit by faith wait for the hope of righteousness.

 

[Atwood]

Re: E S in the Psalms; Ps 73

Atwood Posted the NKJV & the Standard Greek Lexicon (BDAG):

Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. NKJV

katargeo:

kat(a) = thoroughly
a- =not
erg = work (e disappears added to a)
eo = verb ending

made thoroughly not working

BDAG:
1. to cause someth. to be unproductive, use up, exhaust, waste
of a tree κ. τὴν γῆν Lk 13:7


2. to cause someth. to lose its power or effectiveness, invalidate, make powerless fig. extension of 1
make ineffective, nullify
τὴν πίστιν τοῦ θεοῦ God’s fidelity Ro 3:3.
ἐπαγγελίαν Gal 3:17; cp. Ro 4:14;
τὰ ὄντα κ. nullify the things that (actually) exist 1 Cor 1:28.
τὸν νόμον make the law invalid Eph 2:15; cp. Ro 3:31


3. to cause someth. to come to an end or to be no longer in existence,abolish, wipe out, set aside τὶ someth.
τὰ τοῦ νηπίου set aside childish ways 1 Cor 13:11.

Of God or Christ:
God will do away with both stomach and food 6:13;
bring to an end πᾶσαν ἀρχήν, ἐξουσίαν, δύναμιν 15:24.

τὸν ἄνομον 2 Th 2:8.

τὸν θάνατον break the power of death 2 Ti 1:10;
pass. 1 Cor 15:26
τὸν τὸ κράτος ἔχοντα τοῦ θανάτου destroy the one who has power over deathHb 2:14.

ἵνα καταργηθῇ τὸ σῶμα τ. ἁμαρτίας in order that the sinful body may be done away with Ro 6:6.

In 2 Cor 3:14 the subject may be ἡ παλαιὰ διαθήκη or, more probably (despite some grammatical considerations),
κάλυμμα; in the latter case the mng. is remove.
—Pass. cease, pass away προφητεία, γνῶσις [=prophecy, knowledge] 1 Cor 13:8.

τὸ ἐκ μέρους what is imperfect vs. 10.

ἄρα κατήργηται τὸ σκάνδαλον τοῦ σταυροῦ the cross has ceased to be an obstacle Gal 5:11.

καταργούμενος doomed to perish
of the ἄρχοντες τοῦ αἰῶνος τούτου 1 Cor 2:6.

Of the radiance on Moses’ face 2 Cor 3:7.

Subst. τὸ καταργούμενον what is transitory vss. 11, 13.


4. to cause the release of someone from an obligation (one has nothing more to do with it),
be discharged, be released.

Severed is a misleading translation to the extent that katargeo does not refer to cutting something off, like a limb of a tree or an arm from a body.

The word does not imply that the one who would be justified by law used to be part of Christ & no longer is. But if you try to justified by the law (by obedience), then you cut yourself off / make yourself discharged from Christ's saving power. He is not your Savior then; you are your alleged savior.

NewB, it appears to me that you with your works salvation fit precisely into this verse. Am I wrong?

Now NewB comes back with a railing accusation:

here is another proving guile.....responding to throw off the issue with greek verb and lies. How can the word not imply that one who was severed from Christ was not part of Christ. He cannot respond to the second part of the statement.
I can't see how someone can be severed if they were not a part of ...nor can one fall from somewhere he was not....

The verb katargeo does not have the meaning you are insisting on, NewB. I didn't write the Lexicon. I didn't give the more accurate NKJV translation:
Christ is become of no effect unto you.

BADG gives many examples.

Does this verse apply to you?
Is it not strange if someone wants to be justified by works & thus unsure of eternal destiny, he would insist on the (wrong) translation "cut off," wrong if you take "cut off" literally. You could, however, be cut off from the presidency, like Al Gore, even though you were never president, nor on the white house staff. But "cut off" is not even listed as a translation possibility in BDAG.

Do you want Christ to be of effect to you?
Then repent of writing Him off as a mere chance giver and trust Him as Savior to see you through.

 

[Atwood]

Because man interferes with Gods will in our life. Man has always interfered and still to this day interfere, we are not puppets. The Holy Spirit is our guide, and man can choose not to listen to that guidance. So like I said before it is not our Lord that casts us away, we lose it for ourselves.

Kenneth, why make up a doctrine to keep yourself from the eternal security you could have? You never find "lose salvation" in the Bible. Focus on the Savior who loves you, Who died for you, Who shed His precious blood for you. He is no mere chance giver. Salvation is not a shot at getting to Heaven; salvation is the Lord giving the free gift of eternal life. He is the Savior; if we will trust Him, we are the savee.

Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins. The Lord is able to work in us to will & to do. Don't sell Him short.

He who began a good work in you is able to complete it.
But to begin the work, requires that one trust Him as Savior.
He is the author & perfecter of our faith.
He saves to the uttermost.
When one trusts Him, one's nature is changed;
old things pass away; behold all things become new.
One gets a new birth; one is begotten of God.

 

[newbirth]

Re: E S in the Psalms; Ps 73

Atwood Posted the NKJV & the Standard Greek Lexicon (BDAG):

Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. NKJV

katargeo:

kat(a) = thoroughly
a- =not
erg = work (e disappears added to a)
eo = verb ending

made thoroughly not working

BDAG:
1. to cause someth. to be unproductive, use up, exhaust, waste
of a tree κ. τὴν γῆν Lk 13:7


2. to cause someth. to lose its power or effectiveness, invalidate, make powerless fig. extension of 1
make ineffective, nullify
τὴν πίστιν τοῦ θεοῦ God’s fidelity Ro 3:3.
ἐπαγγελίαν Gal 3:17; cp. Ro 4:14;
τὰ ὄντα κ. nullify the things that (actually) exist 1 Cor 1:28.
τὸν νόμον make the law invalid Eph 2:15; cp. Ro 3:31


3. to cause someth. to come to an end or to be no longer in existence,abolish, wipe out, set aside τὶ someth.
τὰ τοῦ νηπίου set aside childish ways 1 Cor 13:11.

Of God or Christ:
God will do away with both stomach and food 6:13;
bring to an end πᾶσαν ἀρχήν, ἐξουσίαν, δύναμιν 15:24.

τὸν ἄνομον 2 Th 2:8.

τὸν θάνατον break the power of death 2 Ti 1:10;
pass. 1 Cor 15:26
τὸν τὸ κράτος ἔχοντα τοῦ θανάτου destroy the one who has power over deathHb 2:14.

ἵνα καταργηθῇ τὸ σῶμα τ. ἁμαρτίας in order that the sinful body may be done away with Ro 6:6.

In 2 Cor 3:14 the subject may be ἡ παλαιὰ διαθήκη or, more probably (despite some grammatical considerations),
κάλυμμα; in the latter case the mng. is remove.
—Pass. cease, pass away προφητεία, γνῶσις [=prophecy, knowledge] 1 Cor 13:8.

τὸ ἐκ μέρους what is imperfect vs. 10.

ἄρα κατήργηται τὸ σκάνδαλον τοῦ σταυροῦ the cross has ceased to be an obstacle Gal 5:11.

καταργούμενος doomed to perish
of the ἄρχοντες τοῦ αἰῶνος τούτου 1 Cor 2:6.

Of the radiance on Moses’ face 2 Cor 3:7.

Subst. τὸ καταργούμενον what is transitory vss. 11, 13.


4. to cause the release of someone from an obligation (one has nothing more to do with it),
be discharged, be released.

Severed is a misleading translation to the extent that katargeo does not refer to cutting something off, like a limb of a tree or an arm from a body.

The word does not imply that the one who would be justified by law used to be part of Christ & no longer is. But if you try to justified by the law (by obedience), then you cut yourself off / make yourself discharged from Christ's saving power. He is not your Savior then; you are your alleged savior.

NewB, it appears to me that you with your works salvation fit precisely into this verse. Am I wrong?

Now NewB comes back with a railing accusation:



The verb katargeo does not have the meaning you are insisting on, NewB. I didn't write the Lexicon. I didn't give the more accurate NKJV translation:
Christ is become of no effect unto you.

BADG gives many examples.

Does this verse apply to you?
Is it not strange if someone wants to be justified by works & thus unsure of eternal destiny, he would insist on the (wrong) translation "cut off," wrong if you take "cut off" literally. You could, however, be cut off from the presidency, like Al Gore, even though you were never president, nor on the white house staff. But "cut off" is not even listed as a translation possibility in BDAG.

Do you want Christ to be of effect to you?
Then repent of writing Him off as a mere chance giver and trust Him as Savior to see you through.

No it simply means your ES theory is a lie....if Christ can become of no effect unto you. ,,,Can one fall from grace?

 

[Atwood]

"St Anselm's Instruction to the Dying"

Q Dost thou believe that the Lord Jesus died for thee?
A I believe it.

Q Dost thou thank him for his passion and death?
A I do thank him.

Q Dost thou believe that thou canst not be saved except by his death?
A I believe it.

Come then, while life remaineth in thee:
in his death alone place thy whole trust; in naught else place any trust;
to his death commit thyself wholly, with this alone cover thyself wholly;

and if the Lord thy God will to judge thee,
say, ‘Lord, between thy judgment and me I present the death of our Lord Jesus Christ; no otherwise can I contend with thee.’

And if he shall say that thou art a sinner,
say thou: ‘Lord, I interpose the death of our Lord Jesus Christ between my sins and thee.

‘If he say that thou hast deserved condemnation,
say: ‘Lord, I set the death of our Lord Jesus Christ between my evil deserts and thee, and his merits I offer for those which I ought to have and have not.’

If he say that he is wroth with thee,
say: ‘Lord, I oppose the death of our Lord Jesus Christ between thy wrath and me.

‘And when thou hast completed this,
say again: ‘Lord, I set the death of our Lord Jesus Christ between thee and me.’

attributed to Anselm of Canterbury (c. 1033-1109)
IMHO, Anselm was truly a great theologian.

 

[Atwood]

Is It Possible to Stay on Topic, namely Salvation by a Savior?

Instead of focusing on passages that state what the Savior does to help miserable sinners, how He saves them, we have a lot of diversion on passages that say none of that. For example:

1) Speculative interps of parables, like the 10 virgins in Mat 25, where salvation and Savior are not mentioned at all.

2) dogmatic statements like "Repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand" refers to the Church, instead of the Davidic Kingdom of the Davidic Covenant. No proof, mind you, just pontification. Again, there is no reference to a Savior saving anyone in this claim.

For these heretics, you would think that there was no Savior who actually saved anyone.

Then we have a statement about how one gets into the Church (again nothing about a Savior and being saved by a Savior), claiming that one gets into the Church by believing and being baptized -- which BTW is true, only the baptism that puts one into the Church is the Baptism of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor 12:13). The Lord Jesus was prophesied to baptize with the Spirit, as opposed to water.

Spirit baptism began on Pentecost, and every believer gets this. But this is not a human work, it is the work of God done freely on behalf of the believer. The only thing required of man is belief, as reiterated time & time again in scripture.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved.

 

[newbirth]

Re: "St Anselm's Instruction to the Dying"

Q Dost thou believe that the Lord Jesus died for thee?
A I believe it.

Q Dost thou thank him for his passion and death?
A I do thank him.

Q Dost thou believe that thou canst not be saved except by his death?
A I believe it.

Come then, while life remaineth in thee:
in his death alone place thy whole trust; in naught else place any trust;
to his death commit thyself wholly, with this alone cover thyself wholly;

and if the Lord thy God will to judge thee,
say, ‘Lord, between thy judgment and me I present the death of our Lord Jesus Christ; no otherwise can I contend with thee.’

And if he shall say that thou art a sinner,
say thou: ‘Lord, I interpose the death of our Lord Jesus Christ between my sins and thee.

‘If he say that thou hast deserved condemnation,
say: ‘Lord, I set the death of our Lord Jesus Christ between my evil deserts and thee, and his merits I offer for those which I ought to have and have not.’

If he say that he is wroth with thee,
say: ‘Lord, I oppose the death of our Lord Jesus Christ between thy wrath and me.

‘And when thou hast completed this,
say again: ‘Lord, I set the death of our Lord Jesus Christ between thee and me.’

attributed to Anselm of Canterbury (c. 1033-1109)
IMHO, Anselm was truly a great theologian.

and if the Lord thy God will to judge thee,
Whatever you say Lord your judgement is true
And if he shall say that thou art a sinner,
Guilty as charged Lord be merciful to me
If he say that thou hast deserved condemnation,
Remember me in your mercy and loving kindness Lord
If he say that he is wroth with thee,
Let not your anger be toward me Father
‘And when thou hast completed this,say again:
Even if you slay me yet will I serve you Lord

 

[Atwood]

Same ol' Same ol' diversion from the SAvior who saves

Now someone want to go on about falling from grace, even though such a passage says nothing about a Savior saving anyone or refusing to save someone.

It is obvious that those who can't stand the idea of a Savior actually doing saving, will want to insist that falling from grace means that someone "loses salvation," though such language is not in the text. And those who believe God's word how that the Lord Jesus actually does save persons who trust Him, are likely to point out that such a passage means that persons have gone away from the idea of being saved by grace -- the precise evil thing that those who want to be saved by works do.

It looks like those who want to insist on getting to Heaven by obeying commandments (works) at the same time want to insist that falling from grace and adopting the obeying commandments method means a loss of salvation! Thus such persons condemn themselves.

To be saved by grace and to appropriate the value of Christ's death, one has to trust Him as Savior rather than works. If you adopt works, you make Christ as a Savior of no effect to yourself, you make the grace system of no effect to yourself.

Ye have become nullifiedfrom Christ, ye who would be justified by the law; ye are fallen away from grace. For we through the Spirit by faith wait for the hope of righteousness.

Such a person is not said to have ever adopted the grace system, but fell away from it by choosing the commandments system. Note the 2nd part of the passage: We through the Holy Spirt by faith wait for the expectation of righteousness. I take that to mean that the Christian life is lived by faith; when we trust the Savior, the Spirit produces the righteous fruit.

BTW, I don't know how a person who wants to follow the commandments system for righteousness and who can't stand trusting Christ for eternally secure salvation -- I don't know how such a person can even bear to read Galatians, so hostile the book is to such notions. I suppose they seize on some verse or take it from some heretic's list of non-security verses.

 

[Atwood]

Re: "St Anselm's Instruction to the Dying"

and if the Lord thy God will to judge thee,
Whatever you say Lord your judgement is true
And if he shall say that thou art a sinner,
Guilty as charged Lord be merciful to me
If he say that thou hast deserved condemnation,
Remember me in your mercy and loving kindness Lord
If he say that he is wroth with thee,
Let not your anger be toward me Father
‘And when thou hast completed this,say again:
Even if you slay me yet will I serve you Lord

NewB, do you realize that your answers make absolutely no use of the Savior, the Lord Jesus, and His death for your sins? Your answers have nothing to do with Christianity.

When will you realize that you simply must have this Savior?

 

[Atwood]

I Goofed. I Attributed a KJV translation to the NKJV

Christ is become of no effect unto you.

That is KJV, not NKJV. And here the KJV has the best translation I know of, except that today we would say, "Christ has become of no effect to you."

 

[Atwood]

Atwood Posted:

The parable of the 4 soils says nothing about losing salvation. In fact it says nothing about a Savior saving. You are stuck in your unbiblical rut. Apostasy is explained in 1 John 2 as proving that persons were never part of the body of Christ, or they would have remained with the Body.

Cassian Pontificated, as usual with no Bible proof, just him saying it.

You are confused on the use of salvation and eternal life. These are NOT the same thing. Christ saved the world, mankiind from death and sin, that is salvation from death and sin. Christ did it, man has nothing to do with it. It is a gift given to every single human being.

Cassian, you are the one confused, if not trying to confuse.

Salvation is not something that all men get.
Paul was asked, Sirs what must I do to be saved?
Paul did not say, "Man you are already saved."
Paul said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved."
The same condition applies to eternal life (John 3:16).
"You shall be saved" implies the Philippian jailer was not saved already.

So Cassian's I-said-it, is wrong.
Salvation includes eternal life.

I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish (essence of salvation).

Here is what the Word says,
"Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins."

That does not apply to all men, but to His people. It is obvious that all men are not saved from their sins. They are deep in sin, as Rom 1-3 tells us: there is none who does good, not not one. A terrible list of sins is given.

 

[Cassian]

Atwood Posted:

The parable of the 4 soils says nothing about losing salvation. In fact it says nothing about a Savior saving. You are stuck in your unbiblical rut. Apostasy is explained in 1 John 2 as proving that persons were never part of the body of Christ, or they would have remained with the Body.

The parable of the soils is NOT about salvation, but about one's relationship with Christ, in attaining eternal life. You are swatting at flies with your pontification that is not even relevant to your topic. How come you don't even understand the topic? How would you even know if it is scriptural or not when you cannot even differentiate between salvation and eternal life?

And your definition for apostacy needs to be corrected as well. It may fit your theory, but it is meaningless when one changes it meaning. Check your dictionary as well.

Cassian, you are the one confused, if not trying to confuse.

Salvation is not something that all men get.

Point out where I am confused. On the other hand here is where yoiu are very confused. Christ saved the world, which is why He is called the Savior of the world. John 4:42. Christ became man, Incarnate to defeat death. Heb 2:14, Heb 2:9, II Tim 1:10, and that death of Gen 3:19, Rom 5:12 was corrected in vs 18, LIFE given to all men. That life was a gift, vs 15 to all men. I Cor 15:12-22 also states unequivocally that Christ granted life to all men. He defeated death. I know you do not believe this, from your earlier dismissals of Scripture and of the salvific content of the Incarnation. We know all men were given life because all men will be raised in the last day. John 6:39, Rev 20:13, Acts 24:15.

I understand that because either your confusion, or just ignorance you do not understand the difference between salvation, what Christ did for all mankind, for the reason that God could call all men to repentance, so that all men could have the same opportunity to choose for Christ or against Christ.

Your man made theories of Original Sin, OSAS, and Satisfaction theory all deny what scripture actually teaches, regarding the purpose of man's very existence, the fall, Christ redemption from the fall, and God restoring the union for which man was created to have with Him freely and in love and obedience.

Your theory of OSAS is a direct denial of everything above which is why it has always been false and has never been a meaning of scripture. It is why you cannot find any evidence in scripture for it, but only in the system that Calvin developed 1500 years after the Gospel was given.

Paul was asked, Sirs what must I do to be saved?
Paul did not say, "Man you are already saved."

He did not need to at that point. Paul could not have told Him how to be IN Christ unless Christ first had saved the world from permanent death, which you consistantly overlook, dismiss, or reject outright. But I'm sure Paul told him about how Christ saved us from death and sin.

Paul said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved."
The same condition applies to eternal life (John 3:16).
"You shall be saved" implies the Philippian jailer was not saved already.

actually he was, or Paul could not tell him his faith saved him. Read I Cor 15:12-22 with emphasis on vs 17 where it states that faith would be in vain if Christ did not raise all the dead, give life to our dead mortal bodies.

So Cassian's I-said-it, is wrong.
Salvation includes eternal life.

If it does then you are truly a Universalist since Christ saved everything, man and all material world from death and sin. You have heard of heaven and hell and the New Heaven and New Earth. That is ONLY possible because Christ redeemed the world, II Cor 5:18-19, Rom 3:23-25, Col 1:20. The purpose of reading the Bible is to read it with understanding and comprehension. You actually might learn something if you discard your blinders.

I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish (essence of salvation).

Yes, promise from God and it is irrevocable. But where is man's promise, can man guarantee his faith, is man's faith irrevocable as well? Since you have been unable to show any evidence for this, your theory falls, is false. Man is being saved, attaining eternal life through faith, not Christ alone, nor faith alone, for that matter.

Here is what the Word says,
"Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins."

Yes, He did that and propitiated the sins of the world in fact. I John 2:2.

That does not apply to all men, but to His people. It is obvious that all men are not saved from their sins. They are deep in sin, as Rom 1-3 tells us: there is none who does good, not not one. A terrible list of sins is given.

That is because you do not understand the difference between atonement/propitiation and the jforgiveness of sin.
Christ propitiated the sin of the world. The ONLY way a person can have his sin forgiven is to repent, or confess his sins. Any sin not repented of, or confess is retained and can condemn a person. This is what happens to a lot of believers. They fall back into their former sinful ways, they become lazy, they just choose to forsake their first faith. You have yet to find a text that says a believer, who loses faith will still inherit eternal life. When you can do that, you can have 1 point toward OSAS.

So, instead of refuting what I stated, you just made empty assertions with no further evidence for OSAS. Lot of rhetoric but no substance.

 

[Cassian]

So all I have to do is live by faith every day. Why did God send Jesus to the Earth? You should take a very careful look at John chapter 3. It explains very clearly without picking any individual scriptures to justify your position. If you "Believe" (not say you believe, think you believe, want to believe, may believe in the future), you will be saved. That is why God sent Jesus to the Earth. If you deny that, then all you can do is work your way straight to Hell.

Another who does not understand the difference between the creation of man, the purpose of why God created man and then the fall of man from that purpose.
Christ redeeming mankind, the world from that fall, so that man and God could return to the purpose for which we were created.

Christ came to redeem this world. To defeat death, sin and Satan. Christ needed to do this in order to make it possible again for man to be united with God in an eternal relationship, now and for eternity.

The relationship is all about man living and doing the will of His Master. Believing is the means God uses to grant admittance to His Body so that man can be healed and perfected, thus attaining eternal life.

Because you are confused and cannot differentiate between what Christ did for us, and our(man's response) you are also confused between the use of grace, faith and works and how they are used or mean relative to what Christ did and we cannot do, and for the purpose of man joining with Him, which we were created to do.

 

[andrewmhmusic]

Re: E S in the Psalms; Ps 73

Dear all, seeing as I have Cypriot origins, I'll check all the greek carefully when I have a spare day lol Thanks everyone for such an interesting dialogue

here is another proving guile.....responding to throw off the issue with greek verb and lies. How can the word not imply that one who was severed from Christ was not part of Christ. He cannot respond to the second part of the statement.
I can't see how someone can be severed if they were not a part of ...nor can one fall from somewhere he was not....

 

[royalscot]

for the record, there was no gentiles at Pentecost. this is made clear, at act 10, Cornelius being the first gentile, ie peter was at Pentecost. ,and if there was any gentiles there, he would not have step out side of the law, when he went to Cornelius home. . ie jewish were not to speak to gentiles.
the funny thing is, some of you, on the forum topic, cant see, the law of the land, cant save you. the law ,given, to moses, cant save you. if you cant see this fundamental fact. how will you ever see, what jesus Christ did for you.

romans 8 v 38 for I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future nor any power, v39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation ,will be able to separate us from the love of god that is in Christ jesus our lord.

there is a lot of nor s and neither s there.

 

[newbirth]

Re: Same ol' Same ol' diversion from the SAvior who saves

Now someone want to go on about falling from grace, even though such a passage says nothing about a Savior saving anyone or refusing to save someone.

It is obvious that those who can't stand the idea of a Savior actually doing saving, will want to insist that falling from grace means that someone "loses salvation," though such language is not in the text. And those who believe God's word how that the Lord Jesus actually does save persons who trust Him, are likely to point out that such a passage means that persons have gone away from the idea of being saved by grace -- the precise evil thing that those who want to be saved by works do.

It looks like those who want to insist on getting to Heaven by obeying commandments (works) at the same time want to insist that falling from grace and adopting the obeying commandments method means a loss of salvation! Thus such persons condemn themselves.

To be saved by grace and to appropriate the value of Christ's death, one has to trust Him as Savior rather than works. If you adopt works, you make Christ as a Savior of no effect to yourself, you make the grace system of no effect to yourself.

Ye have become nullifiedfrom Christ, ye who would be justified by the law; ye are fallen away from grace. For we through the Spirit by faith wait for the hope of righteousness.

In all your wisdom, explain ,How can one fall from grace if they were not saved by grace?

Such a person is not said to have ever adopted the grace system, but fell away from it by choosing the commandments system. Note the 2nd part of the passage: We through the Holy Spirt by faith wait for the expectation of righteousness. I take that to mean that the Christian life is lived by faith; when we trust the Savior, the Spirit produces the righteous fruit.

foolishness how can one fall away from something they never adopted in the first place? Such a person is not said to have not ever adopted the grace system. The second part yes the christian life is by faith and faith without works is dead. Or is that not in your bible?

BTW, I don't know how a person who wants to follow the commandments system for righteousness and who can't stand trusting Christ for eternally secure salvation -- I don't know how such a person can even bear to read Galatians, so hostile the book is to such notions. I suppose they seize on some verse or take it from some heretic's list of non-security verses.

It is not..." the commandments system" bro, I guess you didn't know he gave commandments too. Now you are going to say the only command is to believe....but look it is plural.
John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.
John 15:10
If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Are you better than Christ who kept the Father's commandments, that you don't want to keep his?

 

[newbirth]

Re: I Goofed. I Attributed a KJV translation to the NKJV

Christ is become of no effect unto you.

That is KJV, not NKJV. And here the KJV has the best translation I know of, except that today we would say, "Christ has become of no effect to you."

same same ...he was effective now ...Christ is become of no effect unto you. what is your point ...If Christ gives us life and for whatever reason he becomes of no effect unto you then you are become dead. Still severed.....

 

[newbirth]

Re: "St Anselm's Instruction to the Dying"

NewB, do you realize that your answers make absolutely no use of the Savior, the Lord Jesus, and His death for your sins? Your answers have nothing to do with Christianity.

When will you realize that you simply must have this Savior?

If you had known God you would not have said that.....
2 Corinthians 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

 

[Simona25]

God didnt do it to satisfy his "offended pride." He punished his Son because God is a just God and MUST punish sin. He will not pardon our sins, he MUST punish them to remain just. The only way for us to be forgiven for sin is by the blood of Jesus Christ who bore our sins upon himself 1 peter 2:24. Jesus is a propitiation for our sins Rom 3:25. This means that Jesus satisfied Gods wrath when he was judged on the cross. If you deny this, you deny the gospel and can not be saved. If Jesus did not take the wrath of God for OUR sins, then we are still in our sins and will be judged. The wages of sin is death Rom 6:23. So God requires death to pay for sins. This is why Jesus had to die, he was to pay the debt for sin. If you don't believe that Jesus died for your sins then you are lost and will be judged for your own sins.

...this masochism does not come from the gospel, but from paganism.
The god Moloch requires death to pay for sins, not God. You, westerners, have misunderstood the justice and righteousness of God. God doesn't repay evil for evil. God is love and goodness. Understand that! Understand also that sin is a reality that affects you ontologically. It is sin that kills, not God. Sin is separation from God (who is life). What happens when you move away from life? You die.