ONCE saved always saved!.

[SeaBass]

1 John is written to born again believers. The context is walking in fellowship. Yes, 1 John 1:4 begins with 'if' . . . here's the thing: I am a child of God and I am walking along 'in the light' but then I stumble and fall - I was tempted and I followed through on that temptation . . . in that instant I am 'in darkness' . . . YOU say that then I am not a child of God and somehow at that time God takes away his Spirit from me and I am lost. Then I can't even be convicted of what I have done because I no longer even have the Holy Spirit there to convict me . . . I say that I stumble and fall - in that instant I am 'in darkness' but I am still a child of God; still have the Holy Spirit to convict me of my wrong and I ask forgiveness and I am back 'in the light'. And of course God has no greater joy than that his children walk in truth and that is what each and every born again believer, child of God desires to do. We desire to walk after his commandments - the thing is we live in this body of flesh and it is a battle - hopefully most times we will win but there will be times when we won't and he has made provision for that in 1 John 1:9. So no walking = conviction = forgiveness = saved.

The point John makes is for the Christian to maintain his salvation he MUST walk making salvation CONDITIONAL upon the Christian walk. Therefore if a Christian quits walking all together he becomes lost. Yet Eternal Security says the Christian walk does not matter, it's non-essential for a Christian to maintain his salvation.

James 5:19,20 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

James is writing to Christians and says if one of you err from the truth, let him know, that he which converteth the SINNER...
Note how James calls this erring one from the truth a SINNER and not a Christian.

I was made spotless 'to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace' - because of what Christ has done - in the flesh NO but in that new man that was created in me when I was born again - I cannot please God in the flesh. The Spirit is indeed willing but the flesh is weak.

The only way the bible teaches one can ever be made spotless and blameless is by being water baptized where all past sins are remitted then continue to walk in the light where all future sins are continually remitted.

Then there are none that are saved. . . . The context is not saved or lost - It has to do with the Christian's walk. Our standing before God is as a child and will NEVER change but out state [as in fellowship/walk] will fluctuate.

There is no condemnation to those in Christ, Rom 8:1. So walking in darkness is walking outside of Christ, a lost condition. So a CONDITIONAL, sustained walking keeps one in Christ, spotless, blameless and uncondemned.

No, I didn't make salvation CONDITIONAL. I didn't say that someone HAD TO ASK forgiveness for salvation but to restore fellowship with the Father and the Son. I was giving a hypothetical example. I AM SAYING that my salvation is based on my confessing Jesus Christ as Lord and believing God raised him from the dead - PERIOD! At that point I am born again and the Spirit of God dwells within me . . . so even if I sin and don't realize it - I am still God's kid.

You said "you asked for forgiveness" So now are you saying the Christian can remain saved WITHOUT CONDTIONALLY asking for forgiveness?
A Christian's sins can only be cleansed if he is CONDITIOANLLY walking in the light. The Christian's sins are not just automatically forgiven regardless of what the Christian does.

The Jews [the children of Israel] were not born again of God's Spirit . . . big difference there. We have been made partakers of his divine nature. That's what people don't seem to get - we have God in Christ dwelling in us via the gift of holy spirit . . . It can't be unborn . . . oh well. . . <sigh>

The Jews under the law of Moses did not have the new birth, that came under Christ's NT law. But not having this new birth did not make them any less saved, any less the children of God, any less in a covenant relationship with God. And they were cast off falling from that covenant relationship becoming lost. Again, how could they be cast-off (Rom 11) if they were never saved, never God's children, elect, chosen?

 

[peacefulbeliever]

The point John makes is for the Christian to maintain his salvation he MUST walk making salvation CONDITIONAL upon the Christian walk. Therefore if a Christian quits walking all together he becomes lost. Yet Eternal Security says the Christian walk does not matter, it's non-essential for a Christian to maintain his salvation.

James 5:19,20 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

James is writing to Christiansand says if one of you err from the truth, let him know, that he which converteth the SINNER...
Note how James calls this erring one from the truth a SINNER and not a Christian.



The only way the bible teaches one can ever be made spotless and blameless is by being water baptized where all past sins are remitted then continue to walk in the light where all future sins are continually remitted.


There is no condemnation to those in Christ, Rom 8:1. So walking in darkness is walking outside of Christ, a lost condition. So a CONDITIONAL, sustained walking keeps one in Christ, spotless, blameless and uncondemned.




You said "you asked for forgiveness" So now are you saying the Christian can remain saved WITHOUT CONDTIONALLY asking for forgiveness?
A Christian's sins can only be cleansed if he is CONDITIOANLLY walking in the light. The Christian's sins are not just automatically forgiven regardless of what the Christian does.


The Jews under the law of Moses did not have the new birth, that came under Christ's NT law. But not having this new birth did not make them any less saved, any less the children of God, any less in a covenant relationship with God. And they were cast off falling from that covenant relationship becoming lost. Again, how could they be cast-off (Rom 11) if they were never saved, never God's children, elect, chosen?

Okay SeaBass . . . Have it your way . . . take a flower and pull of the petals saying - saved, not saved, saved, not saved, saved, not saved, I just hope for your sake that Christ returns when you are pulling the one that says saved . . . .

 

[kennethcadwell]

Yes but if they don't turn back, then they are no longer in a saved state. Read post #459

You just don't get it . . . This section of scripture speaks to those that are saved and concerns their walk. verse 6 - the lie is saying that you walk in the light when you are not [which is the picture a lot of peeps on here try to concoct] You are already saved - you are walking in the light - the path in front of you is clearly marked with white lines outlined in yellow [do not pass] like on a highway - you stumble and fall across the line - at that point you are now walking in darkness - but you are still saved - Your heavenly Father is just waiting for you to turn around get your bearings and get back in the boundary lines - that is a Christian's walk after salvation. This is how we, as humans, deal with our children - How could God do less with his children. His love is much greater than ours for He is love . . . .

 

[SeaBass]

False, Hoffco. You teach a false gospel.

The only condition for salvation is belief/faith in Christ, as repeated over & over; for example:

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved. No ifs ands or buts.

Thus the only repentance (metanoia) that saves is a change from non-belief to belief in the Savior. Metanoia means change of mind, not being sorry or turning over a new leaf. Metamelomai is another word used which does imply sorrow, but that does not save -- Judas had that one, then went & hanged himself.

Could my tears forever flow;
Could my zeal no languor know;
These for sin could not atone;
Thou must save, & thou alone;
In my hand no price I bring,
Simply to thy cross I cling.

But it is implicit when one trusts Christ as Savior that one comes as a sinner -- else one would need no savior.

"Obey Jesus as Lord" is a pernicious heresy. That is salvation by works, which is against God's word. You do not get saved by obeying or promising to obey God's commandments. Obeying Christ as Lord is something to do after one is saved. And obeying Him as the One Who loves you, is an even higher principle.

For by grace you have been saved through faith,
and that not of yourselves,
not of works lest anyone should boast.

There is indeed only one commandment to obey in order to be saved; but that one is this one:

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved.

Now any who have been trusting in themselves & their obedience are urged to trust Christ as Savior now. And any who have reduced Him to mere "chance-giver" are urged to trust Him as Savior now.

Thou shalt call His name Jesus,
for He shall save His people from their sins.

I see you are still assuming, adding the word "only" to context thereby changing God's word to force it to fit your man-made bias.

 

[SeaBass]

The answer is found in the fact that the Bible views salvation from two different perspective, or sides: there is God's side and there is man's side. From God's side, the Bible teaches that all of the elect of God will be saved and can not lost eternal life. Jesus will never lost one of His sheep. This is an absolute fact that can not be denied. The man's perspective is a very subjective, experiential side which we live out and we can come to a conclusion that we are saved or that we are not save: because of how we live or don't live for God. The assurance of our faith is always based upon how well we live in holiness and the witness of the Holy Spirit to our holy living. To teach that our salvation and assurance of salvation is based upon faith in Jesus only is the lie of the Devil. The condition for salvation are,1. repent of sin, 2. Trust in Jesus alone, 3. Obey Jesus as Lord. If a teacher of the word of God doesn't agree on three points, there is not talking to them about the things of God because they have perverted the first principles of the Gospel of God. It does one no good if they believe, "once saved always saved", If they can not convinced ourselves that they are converted from sin to a holy way of life. Love to all. Hoffco

Judas was a sheep that was lost.

Jn 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

 

[SeaBass]

You just don't get it . . . This section of scripture speaks to those that are saved and concerns their walk. verse 6 - the lie is saying that you walk in the light when you are not [which is the picture a lot of peeps on here try to concoct] You are already saved - you are walking in the light - the path in front of you is clearly marked with white lines outlined in yellow [do not pass] like on a highway - you stumble and fall across the line - at that point you are now walking in darkness - but you are still saved - Your heavenly Father is just waiting for you to turn around get your bearings and get back in the boundary lines - that is a Christian's walk after salvation. This is how we, as humans, deal with our children - How could God do less with his children. His love is much greater than ours for He is love . . . .

I get that you have a bias for the man-made teaching of eternal security so you do what you can to get salvation out of all the CONDITIONS put upon salvation in 1 Jn 1.

It's beyond amazing to me how a man-made teaching can make one think being out of fellowship with God, walking in darkness, forgiveness, cleansing away of sins have NOTHING to do with salvation.


1 Jn 1:6 If we (Christians) say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

Simple question:
So a Christian that falls out of fellowship with God and thereby walks in darkness, lies and do not the truth is still in a saved position?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

But it is something one must do to be saved. That is the point.

There are some who want to say repentance is not needed for salvation, but it clearly is.

one can not have faith unless they repent.

but faith is not wishy washy. It is real or it is not.

Faith in Christ to save you based on repentance. brings God's promise And God, WHo can not lie, promised eternal life before time began.

again, If salvation is not secure, there is no salvation. for there is no hope. and thus could be no faith.

who has faith in a false hope? No one.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes but if they don't turn back, then they are no longer in a saved state. Read post #459

then they were never saved to begin with.

How can one be saved from the penalty of sin. yet at the same time not be saved, (because that said salvation is not secure)

this makes no sense.

 

[SeaBass]

Okay SeaBass . . . Have it your way . . . take a flower and pull of the petals saying - saved, not saved, saved, not saved, saved, not saved, I just hope for your sake that Christ returns when you are pulling the one that says saved . . . .

I'll have it the biblical way. A Christian that sustains his walk in the light, even though he occasionally sins, does not go from saved to lost saved to lost saved to lost........but that sustained walk keeps him saved, keeps all his sins cleansed away, keeps him in Christ where there is no condemnation.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Yes but if they don't turn back, then they are no longer in a saved state. Read post #459

Then you tell me how someone becomes 'unborn' of incorruptible seed? If your parents disown you - you are still their kid because of the 'seed' that is in you. When we become born of the Spirit that is incorruptible seed - That word 'born' - look it up and do a word study on it sometime. God does not look upon our flesh to determine if we are his or not - He sees that new man HE created in you when you were born again.

2 Cor. 5:17-21 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be MADE THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD IN HIM.

Galatians 3:3 Are you so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are you now made perfect by the flesh?

When my children were learning to walk - they fell quite a bit - heck even now they sometimes fall when walking - do I beat them? do I disown them? do I turn my back on them? I patiently wait until they get it!

 

[newbirth]

one can not have faith unless they repent.

but faith is not wishy washy. It is real or it is not.

Faith in Christ to save you based on repentance. brings God's promise And God, WHo can not lie, promised eternal life before time began.

again, If salvation is not secure, there is no salvation. for there is no hope. and thus could be no faith.

who has faith in a false hope? No one.

where did you get that from?
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

 

[Kerry]

I'll have it the biblical way. A Christian that sustains his walk in the light, even though he occasionally sins, does not go from saved to lost saved to lost saved to lost........but that sustained walk keeps him saved, keeps all his sins cleansed away, keeps him in Christ where there is no condemnation.

That is right, we do occasionally sin and more often than that. The problem is that you are telling people that no matter what they do they are saved. Even cheating on their wife or having abortions or living a gay life style and Sea Bass you know that's wrong.

So you will say that they were never saved to begin with. Then you deny the word of God. Whosoever shall beive in their heart and confess with their mouth the Lord Jesus Christ shall be saved.

There are many people that love God but are bound by sin. Including alcohol, and mostly alcohol because most churches see nothing wrong with it. Trust me I work with these people and they are embarrassed to have to come to some one like me for help.

WE point them to the cross and after a while they begin to see, that it is not them, but what Christ did on the cross. Dude these are saved Christians that have lost there salvation and are wanting it back, but they are bound by the sin nature and many give up.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

where did you get that from?
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

yes.

the word of God changes our mind about us. And leads us to trust God.

and you have an issue with this?

if you have not repented. you are still calling the shots. Stil faith in things other than God.

Like you who reject security in Christ.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

I'll have it the biblical way. A Christian that sustains his walk in the light, even though he occasionally sins, does not go from saved to lost saved to lost saved to lost........but that sustained walk keeps him saved, keeps all his sins cleansed away, keeps him in Christ where there is no condemnation.

BUT that is what you were/are insinuating. Nope, the sustained walk does not keep him saved, his faith in Jesus Christ keeps him saved. I hope you remember to ask forgiveness for every sin that you commit if your salvation rest upon that. My salvation rest in what Christ did for me and my being born of the Spirit - knowing that nothing can take that birth away from me because it is incorruptible seed.

 

[newbirth]

Then you tell me how someone becomes 'unborn' of incorruptible seed? If your parents disown you - you are still their kid because of the 'seed' that is in you. When we become born of the Spirit that is incorruptible seed - That word 'born' - look it up and do a word study on it sometime. God does not look upon our flesh to determine if we are his or not - He sees that new man HE created in you when you were born again.

2 Cor. 5:17-21 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be MADE THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD IN HIM.

Galatians 3:3 Are you so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are you now made perfect by the flesh?

When my children were learning to walk - they fell quite a bit - heck even now they sometimes fall when walking - do I beat them? do I disown them? do I turn my back on them? I patiently wait until they get it!

the seed is incorruptible but you can be defiled....
Hebrews 12:15
Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;

 

[kennethcadwell]

The issue is that some are falsely told that you only have to repent once, and all sins past, present, and future are forgiven.
This is false, future sins are not forgiven unless you repent and ask forgiveness when they happen.
When the scripture says all sins will be forgiven, it is talking about the kinds of sins that will be forgiven, not when they happen.

Here James is talking to fellow brothers and sisters in Christ that are in a saved position.

James 1:14-15
" But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full grown, brings forth death.

And then Timothy here:

1 Timothy 5:22
" Do not lay hands on anyone hastily, nor share in other people's sins; keep yourself pure. "

How can one become not pure if they share in other people's sins if that sin will already be forgiven. It won't be forgiven unless they repent and ask forgiveness of it.

Then you have others like Romans 8:13 where Paul is speaking to fellow brothers and sisters in Christ, telling them not to walk in sin that will lead to death, but walk in the spirit that will bring life.

then they were never saved to begin with.

How can one be saved from the penalty of sin. yet at the same time not be saved, (because that said salvation is not secure)

this makes no sense.

 

[kennethcadwell]

They turn their back on our Lord by denying Him and not doing what they were called to do, causing themselves to lose salvation.

Did you read Matthew 25:31-46, both groups believed in Jesus as Lord, but only one group got salvation.

Then you tell me how someone becomes 'unborn' of incorruptible seed? If your parents disown you - you are still their kid because of the 'seed' that is in you. When we become born of the Spirit that is incorruptible seed - That word 'born' - look it up and do a word study on it sometime. God does not look upon our flesh to determine if we are his or not - He sees that new man HE created in you when you were born again.

2 Cor. 5:17-21 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be MADE THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD IN HIM.

Galatians 3:3 Are you so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are you now made perfect by the flesh?

When my children were learning to walk - they fell quite a bit - heck even now they sometimes fall when walking - do I beat them? do I disown them? do I turn my back on them? I patiently wait until they get it!

 

[newbirth]

yes.

the word of God changes our mind about us. And leads us to trust God.

and you have an issue with this?

if you have not repented. you are still calling the shots. Stil faith in things other than God.

Like you who reject security in Christ.

are you reading what you are writing ...you made a wrong statement I corrected you ... what's with the attitude?

 

[Kerry]

To all of you, no, we are fasley lead to think that the more we pray or the more we read or the more we attend church. Hey these are all good things. But, here comes the problem, we start thinking well I pray 30 minutes ever morning and the I read for an hour and then I pray again and I attend church every Sunday or Saturday morning and again at that evening and I go to prayer meeting on Wednesday and the brother hood meeting on Thursday night. We get to thinking we so holy. Then the sin nature starts creeping in and we don't understand. Nothing we do stops it.

We pray more and read more, we stand on the street and preach, but we are still bound by sin. What is the answer

 

[kennethcadwell]

Ask God through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ for the strength to endure and overcome it.

To all of you, no, we are fasley lead to think that the more we pray or the more we read or the more we attend church. Hey these are all good things. But, here comes the problem, we start thinking well I pray 30 minutes ever morning and the I read for an hour and then I pray again and I attend church every Sunday or Saturday morning and again at that evening and I go to prayer meeting on Wednesday and the brother hood meeting on Thursday night. We get to thinking we so holy. Then the sin nature starts creeping in and we don't understand. Nothing we do stops it.

We pray more and read more, we stand on the street and preach, but we are still bound by sin. What is the answer