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He didn;t say that is 1st Thess 4, but Paul also write 1st Corinthians.
1st Corinthians 15
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
In 1st Thessalonians 4 he tells us the rapture is at the coming of Christ, and as the passage above states in 1st Corinthians 15 he places it at the last trump.
1st Corinthians 15
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
In 1st Thessalonians 4 he tells us the rapture is at the coming of Christ, and as the passage above states in 1st Corinthians 15 he places it at the last trump.
obviously no one read my last post, I had never noticed this myself, but I thes 4:13-18 is not the 2nd coming of Christ where the lost and the saved are resurrected for judgement we can prove this within these scriptures. these scriptures themselves prove they are referring to a separate event than the end times resurrection, take note post-tribbers. you will either have to change your thoughts on when the rapture occurrs or your doctrine on salvation, the Bible says that the ones that are raised and the ones that remain alive are caught in the Clouds to be ever with the Lord . so if the lost and the saved are resurrected in 1thes 4:13-18 then all lost and the saved go to heaven forever.
1th 4:16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:1th 4:17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1th 4:16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:1th 4:17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
S
Think of all the people that believe that they have lost their salvation. Some believe it because some callous person, counselor or preacher told them that. Others believe it because they were taught it in their church and lived in fear of unrepentant sin. Others believed it and gave up when they did not see any fruit in their life and they tried to accept Christ again only to experience the same thing all over. Others believe it because they compared themselves to other believers and do not measure up. Others believe it because they think their sin was bigger than God. Others believed it because God brought them into the wilderness and they imagined God had forsaken them. Still others believed it because they believed a lie and thought they had committed an unpardonable sin and would be condemned to hell because of it.
All of this happened in their mind and heart because they were not taught nor did they understand the grace of God. They had friends and associations with other believers that did not minister grace to them and they always lived in guilt and condemnation when they sinned. They were not taught the great and precious promises of God and the cross of Christ. They never really understood the blood of Christ and the righteousness of God and did not have much of God's word hid in their heart.
They are going to be a part of the great surprise. When Christ comes for his church and bride, as unprepared and undeserving as they are, they will be caught up in the clouds of the air to be with Christ forever. Christ will be their portion in heaven just as he was on earth, though they did not know it. They will realize and experience the faithfulness of God. They will know that salvation was totally of God and not of themselves and that He had never left or forsaken them at any time, not even in their greatest moment of weakness or sin. They will enter the joy of the Lord with all the memory of their previous life gone forever. WHAT A RAPTURE. NO TRIBULATION, NO WRATH AND NO CONDEMNATION, ALL JOY.
All of this happened in their mind and heart because they were not taught nor did they understand the grace of God. They had friends and associations with other believers that did not minister grace to them and they always lived in guilt and condemnation when they sinned. They were not taught the great and precious promises of God and the cross of Christ. They never really understood the blood of Christ and the righteousness of God and did not have much of God's word hid in their heart.
They are going to be a part of the great surprise. When Christ comes for his church and bride, as unprepared and undeserving as they are, they will be caught up in the clouds of the air to be with Christ forever. Christ will be their portion in heaven just as he was on earth, though they did not know it. They will realize and experience the faithfulness of God. They will know that salvation was totally of God and not of themselves and that He had never left or forsaken them at any time, not even in their greatest moment of weakness or sin. They will enter the joy of the Lord with all the memory of their previous life gone forever. WHAT A RAPTURE. NO TRIBULATION, NO WRATH AND NO CONDEMNATION, ALL JOY.
I know you have not thought much about me, But I still want to help you. I have posted this before but the post-tribbers have sorts ignored it, but please look at this verse and thought 1Thes.4:13-18 is not the judgement day resurrection that is preached by the post trib side for look if it is, then all people lost and saved are taken up to ever be with the Lord
1th 4:16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:1th 4:17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
so the lost are taken up to be with the Lord for ever?????????? but I thought in matt. it said they were cast out forever????
1th 4:16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:1th 4:17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
so the lost are taken up to be with the Lord for ever?????????? but I thought in matt. it said they were cast out forever????
Noahsdad was obviously pointing out the absurdity of shad unbiblical fairytale belief system, and I could agree more. I do not know where shad got his formation but it wasn't from God or the Bible.
2nd Timothy 4
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
By his post shad has undoubtedly been sucked in by two of these last day fables OSAS, and the pretrib rapture.
2nd Timothy 4
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
By his post shad has undoubtedly been sucked in by two of these last day fables OSAS, and the pretrib rapture.
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D
So I have a question.. For those of you who believe the Church is going through the great tribulation..
Revelation 2
22 Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds.
So... THE LORD WILL NOT CAST THEM INTO THE GREAT TRIBULATION IF THEY REPENT.
Why would God threaten to cast this corrupt Church into the great tribulation.. If He is planning on allowing the TRUE church on "enduring" the great tribulation... Don't you think if they repent of their deeds they will escape the great tribulation and be raptured up with the true Church?
I mean.. Why would God really THREATEN a Church He will cast them into the great tribulation.. If the true Church is going to be cast into the tribulation?
Please explain!
Revelation 2
22 Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds.
So... THE LORD WILL NOT CAST THEM INTO THE GREAT TRIBULATION IF THEY REPENT.
Why would God threaten to cast this corrupt Church into the great tribulation.. If He is planning on allowing the TRUE church on "enduring" the great tribulation... Don't you think if they repent of their deeds they will escape the great tribulation and be raptured up with the true Church?
I mean.. Why would God really THREATEN a Church He will cast them into the great tribulation.. If the true Church is going to be cast into the tribulation?
Please explain!
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S
What exactly do you have against the mercy and grace of God toward sinners? Is there any other way under heaven that a sinner is forgiven and cleansed from sin? Where you saved any other way, except through the blood of Christ? In your eyes what makes a sinner a candidate for the grace of God and salvation by that grace? Is salvation anything more than Christ paying for our sins through death and making it available through grace when we believe upon Him who died for us?
What do you think about these scriptures?
Mt 21:31 'Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.'
Heb 8:12 'For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.' I see no place in chapters 7,8 or 9 where Israel or its people did any kind of repenting. But I do see God being merciful to their unrighteousness and giving them a new covenant of grace and remembering their sins no more. Is is unjust for God to be merciful to our unrighteousness?
Rahab was a harlot. Jos 2:1,3,6, 6:17, 23,25. She is the only sinner in 32,000 verses that is recorded with the name and was identified as a harlot ~ habhak - one who commits fornication or adultery. The other Rahab was a sea monster of some kind, Ps 87:4, 89:10, Is 51:9.
In Heb 11:31 'By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.' Also in James 2:25, 'Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?'
The record in scriptures records her as a harlot. There is no record of her giving it up. Hopefully she did give it up. Are we to assume that she was condemned to hell as a harlot, when the scriptures record her as one of the heroes of faith and has her being justified? The scriptures could have told us something that would have indicated a change of life but it is silent. Even the NT record has her down as a harlot. Can you explain that NoahsDad? The only possible fruit that is recorded was her faith in helping a couple of spies from the Israelites knowing that God was with them. Watchmen and MS have no option but to consider her condemned of God for her sin with no chance for the kingdom of God. Are you going to condemn her as well? Can you find anywhere in scripture that testifies she was converted and forsook her sin as a harlot?
Rahab was mentioned with these men and women who by faith obtained a good report, others not excepting deliverance to obtain a better resurrection and much more in Heb 12:33,34. Then what about Luke 18:13,14
'And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.'
...and Mt 19:13
'Go and learn what this means: I desire mercy [that is, readiness to help those in trouble] and not sacrifice and sacrificial victims. For I came not to call and invite [to repentance] the righteous (those who are upright and in right standing with God), but sinners (the erring ones and all those not free from sin).' Amplified
I believe that many will enter the kingdom of God because of God's mercy. They did not even realize that God had saved them when they asked God to be merciful to them as a sinner or as a wretched person. God looked upon their heart and responded to their cry with mercy. To me it is a terrible thing when someone tries to convince a believer who has sinned, that they will lose their salvation if they don't repent. Some have no idea what that means and have no power to do it.
God saved them by grace as a sinner but now they are being told that they have to repent of sin or lose it. God saved them according to His mercy but they have no teaching and no body to fellowship with and they are simple minded common folks. They may know when they do something that is wrong but the best they can do is ask God for mercy and God will not turn them away and they will enter the kingdom of heaven before those that have it all down pat through their own righteousness.
What do you think about these scriptures?
Mt 21:31 'Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.'
Heb 8:12 'For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.' I see no place in chapters 7,8 or 9 where Israel or its people did any kind of repenting. But I do see God being merciful to their unrighteousness and giving them a new covenant of grace and remembering their sins no more. Is is unjust for God to be merciful to our unrighteousness?
Rahab was a harlot. Jos 2:1,3,6, 6:17, 23,25. She is the only sinner in 32,000 verses that is recorded with the name and was identified as a harlot ~ habhak - one who commits fornication or adultery. The other Rahab was a sea monster of some kind, Ps 87:4, 89:10, Is 51:9.
In Heb 11:31 'By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.' Also in James 2:25, 'Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?'
The record in scriptures records her as a harlot. There is no record of her giving it up. Hopefully she did give it up. Are we to assume that she was condemned to hell as a harlot, when the scriptures record her as one of the heroes of faith and has her being justified? The scriptures could have told us something that would have indicated a change of life but it is silent. Even the NT record has her down as a harlot. Can you explain that NoahsDad? The only possible fruit that is recorded was her faith in helping a couple of spies from the Israelites knowing that God was with them. Watchmen and MS have no option but to consider her condemned of God for her sin with no chance for the kingdom of God. Are you going to condemn her as well? Can you find anywhere in scripture that testifies she was converted and forsook her sin as a harlot?
Rahab was mentioned with these men and women who by faith obtained a good report, others not excepting deliverance to obtain a better resurrection and much more in Heb 12:33,34. Then what about Luke 18:13,14
'And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.'
...and Mt 19:13
'Go and learn what this means: I desire mercy [that is, readiness to help those in trouble] and not sacrifice and sacrificial victims. For I came not to call and invite [to repentance] the righteous (those who are upright and in right standing with God), but sinners (the erring ones and all those not free from sin).' Amplified
I believe that many will enter the kingdom of God because of God's mercy. They did not even realize that God had saved them when they asked God to be merciful to them as a sinner or as a wretched person. God looked upon their heart and responded to their cry with mercy. To me it is a terrible thing when someone tries to convince a believer who has sinned, that they will lose their salvation if they don't repent. Some have no idea what that means and have no power to do it.
God saved them by grace as a sinner but now they are being told that they have to repent of sin or lose it. God saved them according to His mercy but they have no teaching and no body to fellowship with and they are simple minded common folks. They may know when they do something that is wrong but the best they can do is ask God for mercy and God will not turn them away and they will enter the kingdom of heaven before those that have it all down pat through their own righteousness.
D
Wow... How ironic is that? The bible says in Revelation 2:18-29... The CORRUPT Church who commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols.... Will be going through the great tribulation UNLESS THEY REPENT... So if they repent they will be raptured up with the true Church BEFORE the great tribulation .. No CHURCH will endure the great tribulation.. UNLESS they continue in their idolatry.
You are adding to scripture. No where in this passage does it mention anything about a pretrib rapture maybe you should take a look at this verse from Revelation.
Revelation 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Revelation 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: