Legalism Results in Fruit of the Flesh or No Fruit at All
The title I inserted more accurately reflected the content of my post; it's not uncommon on forums to do that and I haven't seen a forum yet that does not offer the option. It does not change the title of the thread - look at the thread list on the Bible Discussions page - the original title is intact - it merely titles individual posts within a thread.
The poster is pushing a Law-centric agenda to believers who have died to the Law, whether they understand that they've died to it or not.
The letter to the Romans is FULL of teaching about how those in Christ are no longer under the Law and that Christ is the end of the Law for righteousness for all who believe.
Romans 16:17-18 preaches against those who seek to put believers back under the Law, not against those who uphold the Truths of the Gospel and who believers are in Christ.
If folks are preaching against Grace and telling believers that they are bound to Old Covenant Law, then they're the ones causing divisions and teaching contrary to the doctrines taught in the Scriptures.
-JGIG
My personal opinion is that if one is going to reply to a thread, it would be wise, as well as courteous, to stick to the established subject rather than derail it so much that a change needs to be made in order to “more accurately” reflect one’s comments.
Opinion noted.
And I was sticking to the established subject; just coming at it from a Grace perspective instead of a Law perspective.
Feel free to alert the mods to my use of the individual post title function that they've made available to every poster here.
Once you changed the title and just-me changed it back, he was unable to access anything on the second page of comments any more.
I'm sure the mods will help him out with that issue. Perhaps he just needs to sign out to clear cookies and sign back in. That often clears up posting/reading issues. I can assure you that nothing I did could have resulted in him not being able to read his thread.
I read it - nothing new there. I'm confident the mods will work out the issue.
As always happens with the law vs grace discussions, those who refuse to really listen/read what is actually being said, immediately say the writer is telling all that we must be “under the law” again and also falsely, that we are justified by it.
I've read/listened very carefully to what is written/said by those who preach observance of the Law by believers.
You fail to do the same.
I make no claim that you seek to be justified in a salvific sense by the Law, but that you turn to that which you, if you are in Christ, have died to for 'how to live'.
In Christ, we are not called to live according to the Law, but according to the Spirit, and if one is led by the Spirit, one is not under the Law.
Preaching Law to believers actually results in NOT bearing Fruit unto God:
4 Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God. 5 For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. 6 But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code. (From Rom 7)
It does not get much clearer than that!
I have made this point many times in the forum and never once has there been an acknowledgement of error by any who made the false accusations. Ain’t it amazin’?
Where have I ever accused any 'Law-keeper' of keeping the Law to achieve salvation?
Regarding the rest of your post above:
You have made it very obvious that you have never received the instruction of how to love your neighbor as God would want us to do.
"Love does no harm to its neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the Law." (from Rom. 13)
Tell me more about how you're judging me, someone you don't know and have never met, how I've NEVER received instruction of how to love my neighbor as God would want us to.
Do you know my neighbors? Have you interviewed them? If you had, I can assure you that they feel very loved and honored by me and my family in both sentiment and substance.
Here are some of the instructions concerning the attitude God wants us to have toward others. He loves that kid of heart, mind and soul in us.
Such as you've demonstrated above? Hmmm . . .
Leviticus 19:10-18 (Oops, Old Testament law teaching by God Himself)
10 And thou shalt not glean thy vineyard, neither shalt thou gather every grape of thy vineyard; thou shalt leave them for the poor and stranger: I am the LORD your God.
11 Ye shall not steal , neither deal falsely , neither lie one to another.
12 And ye shall not swear by my name falsely, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD.
13 Thou shalt not defraud thy neighbour, neither rob him: the wages of him that is hired shall not abide with thee all night until the morning.
14 Thou shalt not curse the deaf, nor put a stumblingblock before the blind, but shalt fear thy God: I am the LORD.
15 Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honour the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour.
16 Thou shalt not go up and down as a talebearer among thy people: neither shalt thou stand against the blood of thy neighbour: I am the LORD.
17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.
18 Thou shalt not avenge , nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.
In the same respect, by your own admission, you neither have you ever accepted the instructions on how to love God, so here is more information how to do that according to His Word.
Deuteronomy 6:1-6 (Oops, Old Testament law teaching by God Himself - again)
1 Now these are the commandments, the statutes, and the judgments, which the LORD your God commanded to teach you, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go to possess it:
2 That thou mightest fear the LORD thy God, to keep all his statutes and his commandments, which I command thee, thou, and thy son, and thy son's son, all the days of thy life; and that thy days may be prolonged .
3 Hear therefore, O Israel, and observe to do it; that it may be well with thee, and that ye may increase mightily, as the LORD God of thy fathers hath promised thee, in the land that floweth with milk and honey.
4 Hear , O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:
Love does no harm to its neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the Law. (from Rom. 13)
23 And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us. 24 Whoever keeps his commandments abides in God, and God in him. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us. (from 1 Jn. 3)
15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. 16 So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. 17 By this is love perfected with us, so that we may have confidence for the day of judgment, because as he is so also are we in this world. 18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love. 19 We love because he first loved us. 20 If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen. 21 And this commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother. (from 1 Jn. 4)
Tell me, which of the Laws above is not covered by the New Covenant writings?
Unless you actually need to be told not to curse the deaf or put a stumbling block in the path of the blind?
Jesus confirmed as we should all look into these persuasions written long ago, so that we would be able to believe in Him, and what He taught. I truly hope that your belief in Him will increase greatly as your heart learns to accept these instructions given.
John 5:46-47 (Yay! New Testament!...but do we have to believe that part?)
46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
Jesus also said this:
39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life. (from Jn. 5)
The Law leads us to Christ, then this happens:
24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, 26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. (from Gal. 3)
May God bless you in the love that He requires all of us to understand and live toward Him first and also toward each other.
All that God requires of us? All that is required of us was fulfilled in Christ, not by anything we do. The love that flows from us in Christ is from Him - His Spirit - the FRUIT of the Spirit (see Gal. 5). We enter into the Work of Christ by faith. Does what we do matter in this life? You bet! But His Fruit of His Spirit will multiply through us; our fruits of the flesh are impotent in and for the Kingdom.
And the New Covenant Scriptures are clear: If you are led by the Spirit, you are no longer under the Law. Those who are in Christ have died to the Law IN ORDER to be joined to Another, Christ, SO THAT we CAN bear fruit unto God.
Tell me again how going back to that which we are no longer under and have died to accomplishes what God wants for those in Christ???
Deuteronomy 30:6 (Oh no – another one of those “law” books of the Old Testament!)
And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
In Christ, even women can be circumcised. In Him all things are possible. I hope that this will happen to you as you adhere to His instructions.
And how is circumcision of the heart done?
By entering into Christ by faith.
At which point we die to the what?
In order to be joined to Who?
So that we can bear what?
Unto Who?
And if we're led by the Spirit we're no longer under the what?
Colossians 2:11
In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Best Wishes to you.
Keep reading in Colossians 2 . . .
12 having been buried with him in baptism [died to the Law, Rom. 7:4-6, Gal. 2:19-21], in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead [alive again in Christ, joined to Him so that we can bear fruit unto God Rom. 7:4-6]. 13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. 15 He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him.
Do you realize that by going back under the Law actually stirs up and empowers sinning in your life (Rom. 5:20, 7:5, 1 Cor. 15:56)?
Do you also realize that going back to the Law you actually give back the weapon to the Enemy that Jesus took away at the Cross?
What is it, exactly, that you're trying to accomplish by keeping a Law that, if you're in Christ, you have died to, which stirs up sinning, and empowers sinning in your life?
-JGIG
