ONCE saved always saved!.

[Ukorin]

Also, lets cut threw the baloney for a moment and tell it to me straight. Do you believe under any circumstance that you can commit an unconfessed sin that is serious and still be saved?

For if you do, then 2 Peter 2:1, 14 is talking about that self professing believer who holds to your version of OSAS.

You have made a false connection.
You ASSUME that damnation must be preached to believers
if the preacher is preaching for them to be holy and abstain from sin.

You are VERY confused about this.

A person is not damned because they took the Lord's name in vain as their car was decimated by a Mac truck. They did not confess that sin because they died instantly, yet it is gravely serious.

You are claiming that I preach sin because I have security in my salvation. Are you claiming that a person cannot live purely if they believe that they are saved for eternity? There is no connection, but what you are saying is a contradiction!
A saved person is one that loves God, not one that hates God.

 

[Ukorin]

None of them were backed up by Scripture because there was no actual Bible verse next to the points you made.

Then pick one out, and have me show you. Can you not even pick a SINGLE point?
Laziness is a sin.

 

[Jason0047]

You have made a false connection.
You ASSUME that damnation must be preached to believers
if the preacher is preaching for them to be holy and abstain from sin.

You are VERY confused about this.

A person is not damned because they took the Lord's name in vain as their car was decimated by a Mac truck. They did not confess that sin because they died instantly, yet it is gravely serious.

You are claiming that I preach sin because I have security in my salvation. Are you claiming that a person cannot live purely if they believe that they are saved for eternity? There is no connection, but what you are saying is a contradiction!
A saved person is one that loves God, not one that hates God.

Read 1 John 1:5-9. In 1 John 1:6 says if we walk in darkness we lie and do not the truth. This is a parallel to 1 John 2:4 that says if one does not keep his commandments, then they are a liar and the truth is not in them. This also lines up with the "Condemnation" mentioned in John 3:19-21, as well. It says Light (Jesus) came into the world and men loved darkness because their deeds were evil. For anyone that doeth evil hates the Light (neither cometh to the Light), unless their deeds should be reproved (Which would obviously be by repentance) (1 John 2:1; 1 John 1:9). For repentance is a theme of salvation that goes thru out the entire Bible. No repentance. No salvation.

 

[Ukorin]

Just so you know, all you have done is claim that I said something that I DID NOT SAY,
and then posted Scripture against what you pretended that I said.

Post against my actual points, not against some made up statement.
A verse against preaching sin does not counter anything I said.

 

[pickles]

I always thought Peter summed it all up rather well in James.
Even if we are unfaithful, Jesus remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.
But if we deny Him,(Jesus) He will deny us.

God bless
pickles

 

[Ukorin]

Read 1 John 1:5-9. In 1 John 1:6 says if we walk in darkness we lie and do not the truth. This is a parallel to 1 John 2:4 that says if one does not keep his commandments, then they are a liar and the truth is not in them. This also lines up with the "Condemnation" mentioned in John 3:19-21, as well. It says Light (Jesus) came into the world and men loved darkness because their deeds were evil. For anyone that doeth evil hates the Light (neither cometh to the Light), unless their deeds should be reproved (Which would obviously be by repentance) (1 John 2:1; 1 John 1:9). For repentance is a theme of salvation that goes thru out the entire Bible. No repentance. No salvation.

How is it that I give a hearty AMEN to all those Scriptures, yet we disagree?
Because you have neglected where the motivation of repentance comes from, and neglected where the purpose and perseverance of Salvation remains.

Will you ever respond to my points at all?
Why should anyone listen to you if you have no ability to listen yourself?
All you have done is divert the issue to sinning without consequence; something that I refuted myself. My points have NOTHING to do with continuing in sin, and everything to do with the motivation behind continuing in holiness.

 

[Jason0047]

Then pick one out, and have me show you. Can you not even pick a SINGLE point?
Laziness is a sin.

It's not laziness. It's a rule I have when discussing OSAS, because I have seen all the excuses and and silly ideas by people (I realize that they are not really interested in discussing the Bible). I seen folks post too many opinions and no Scripture on this topic. I can't waste my time if you don't post Scripture. This website is to talk Bible. You don't want to talk Bible then don't talk Bible. I will not respond if you don't talk Bible (In regards to OSAS). I post Scripture and many times make the extra effort (When I don't have to) to provide a verse as a link to Biblehub.com. Why? Because I want people to read the Bible. I go out my way to do that. If I was lazy, I wouldn't do that. But you are not providing anything. That is laziness. You are projecting upon me in that which you are not doing. I have a rule and I have good reasons to stand by it.

 

[Jason0047]

I always thought Peter summed it all up rather well in James.
Even if we are unfaithful, Jesus remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.
But if we deny Him,(Jesus) He will deny us.

God bless
pickles

Oh good. An actual Bible verse for me to answer. Thank you.

Okay, now does 2 Timothy 2:13 prove OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved)?

No, it doesn't.

Here is what the passage says:

2 Timothy 2:13:
“if we are faithless, he remains faithful– for he cannot deny himself.” (ESV)

In fact, this verse is usually quoted with little or no commentary, as the verse by itself appears to support the notion that even if we are without faith (i.e., unbelieving), God will still give us eternal life. But what OSAS proponents fail to do is consider the surrounding verses, and it’s obvious as to why they do this, as the surrounding text contains two statements against the doctrine of OSAS. The verse immediately prior, verse 12, says:

“if we endure, we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us;” (2 Timothy 2:12, ESV)

The first statement, if we endure, we will also reign with him has the obvious implication that if we don’t endure, we will not reign with him. And the second statement if we deny him, he also will deny us is a pretty clear statement meaning exactly that.

But all that aside, it’s important to notice what the OSAS proof text doesn’t say, viz., it does not say that God remains faithful to the faithless person; it simply says that God remains faithful. But that begs the question, To whom does God remain faithful? The very verse in question answers… “for he cannot deny himself”. So it seems reasonable to conclude that God remains faithful to Himself. So if a believer becomes an unbeliever, God will remain faithful to his promises to punish the unbeliever.

For example:

Ezekiel 18:26 - “When a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice, he shall die for it; for the injustice that he has done he shall die.”

Romans 11:20-22 - “That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.”

God remains faithful; He will not break His promises.

Verdict: 2 Timothy 2:13 does not prove OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved).


Source:
https://counteringcalvinism.wordpress.com/2011/04/23/examining-osas-proof-texts-pt-5/

 

[Ukorin]

It's not laziness. It's a rule I have when discussing OSAS, because I have seen all the excuses and and silly ideas by people (I realize that they are not really interested in discussing the Bible). I seen folks post too many opinions and no Scripture on this topic. I can't waste my time if you don't post Scripture. This website is to talk Bible. You don't want to talk Bible then don't talk Bible. I will not respond if you don't talk Bible (In regards to OSAS). I post Scripture and many times make the extra effort (When I don't have to) to provide a verse as a link to Biblehub.com. Why? Because I want people to read the Bible. I go out my way to do that. If I was lazy, I wouldn't do that. But you are not providing anything. That is laziness. You are projecting upon me in that which you are not doing. I have a rule and I have good reasons to stand by it.

If you won't even tell me what needs Scripture, then how do I know that you are not just saying that?
Prove it! Post a line from my earlier post, and ask for Scripture.

I assert that you never intended on hearing me in the first place.
This is not a conversation, and nowhere close to a discussion or debate.

 

[Jason0047]

Funny. I have no problem answering people if they post a Scripture verse. See how I responded to the nice person above (and how I replied with my own verses)? See, it's not hard. You can do the same thing.

 

[pickles]

Oh good. An actual Bible verse for me to answer. Thank you.

Okay, now does 2 Timothy 2:13 prove OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved)?

No, it doesn't.

Here is what the passage says:

2 Timothy 2:13:
“if we are faithless, he remains faithful– for he cannot deny himself.” (ESV)

In fact, this verse is usually quoted with little or no commentary, as the verse by itself appears to support the notion that even if we are without faith (i.e., unbelieving), God will still give us eternal life. But what OSAS proponents fail to do is consider the surrounding verses, and it’s obvious as to why they do this, as the surrounding text contains two statements against the doctrine of OSAS. The verse immediately prior, verse 12, says:

“if we endure, we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us;” (2 Timothy 2:12, ESV)

The first statement, if we endure, we will also reign with him has the obvious implication that if we don’t endure, we will not reign with him. And the second statement if we deny him, he also will deny us is a pretty clear statement meaning exactly that.

But all that aside, it’s important to notice what the OSAS proof text doesn’t say, viz., it does not say that God remains faithful to the faithless person; it simply says that God remains faithful. But that begs the question, To whom does God remain faithful? The very verse in question answers… “for he cannot deny himself”. So it seems reasonable to conclude that God remains faithful to Himself. So if a believer becomes an unbeliever, God will remain faithful to his promises to punish the unbeliever.

For example:

Ezekiel 18:26 - “When a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice, he shall die for it; for the injustice that he has done he shall die.”

Romans 11:20-22 - “That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.”

God remains faithful; He will not break His promises.

Verdict: 2 Timothy 2:13 does not prove OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved).


Source:
https://counteringcalvinism.wordpress.com/2011/04/23/examining-osas-proof-texts-pt-5/

Actually I do not agree with osas, as there is no scripure speaking to it, but I have trouble with any coined fraze relating to what we are called to in Jesus.
Not because I am against such, but I prefeur to rely on scripture and understanding gven by God through the Holy Spirit in Jesus's name.

Now I dont recall the exact scripture and verse, but it says...
Happy the man who does not condemn himself in what he does.

The first time I heard this scripture it puzzled me a bit.
But then in reading and looking to Jesus, I came to see that it is not Jesus who condemns us, rejects salvation for us.
But we who condemn ourselves, in rejecting Jesus, God, by denying the truth and separating ourselves from God in what we do.

For as scripture says, one cannot serve two masters.
When that day comes, if we have not sought Jesus, but sought flesh instead, how will know salvation, if we have not sought it?

If one lives only in flesh, how can they enter into eternal life?
For only Spirit can enter into eternal life.


God bless
pickles

 

[Ukorin]

Funny. I have no problem answering people if they post a Scripture verse. See how I responded to the nice person above (and how I replied with my own verses)? See, it's not hard. You can do the same thing.

I'm sorry, but I believe I posted Scripture with each point in my thesis.
Which point is left without Scripture?

90% of my last posts were asking you to tell me what you want Scripture for. Do I need Scripture to ask you what thing I said needs to be backed?
By refusing to tell me what you have an issue with, you are telling me that you do not view me as an equal at all, and that nothing I said deserves response.
I can back every word with Scripture, yet you have not been able to tell me where I am lacking.

How can I even learn from you if you will not show me my error?

 

[Ukorin]

I propose that either you cannot find an unbacked point, or you are too lazy to look for one in my posts.

 

[Jason0047]

I propose that either you cannot find an unbacked point, or you are too lazy to look for one in my posts.

Please stop wasting my time about this, my friend. Either post a verse or don't. I have responded plenty to people who have posted an actual verse within this thread and countless of other threads on this topic. Don't want to play by my rule. I am fine with that. We can move on. But if you want to talk Bible. Then talk Bible by posting a verse.

In any event, I say this all in love and with the hope you might see where I am coming from.

May God bless you.
And please be well.

 

[Jason0047]

Actually I do not agree with osas, as there is no scripure speaking to it, but I have trouble with any coined fraze relating to what we are called to in Jesus.
Not because I am against such, but I prefeur to rely on scripture and understanding gven by God through the Holy Spirit in Jesus's name.

Now I dont recall the exact scripture and verse, but it says...
Happy the man who does not condemn himself in what he does.

The first time I heard this scripture it puzzled me a bit.
But then in reading and looking to Jesus, I came to see that it is not Jesus who condemns us, rejects salvation for us.
But we who condemn ourselves, in rejecting Jesus, God, by denying the truth and separating ourselves from God in what we do.

For as scripture says, one cannot serve two masters.
When that day comes, if we have not sought Jesus, but sought flesh instead, how will know salvation, if we have not sought it?

If one lives only in flesh, how can they enter into eternal life?
For only Spirit can enter into eternal life.


God bless
pickles

Yes, I believe my reply on this verse is consistent with what you have said, my friend.

Anyways, peace be unto you.
And please be well.

 

[Ukorin]

Please stop wasting my time about this, my friend. Either post a verse or don't. I have responded plenty to people who have posted an actual verse within this thread and countless of other threads on this topic. Don't want to play by my rule. I am fine with that. We can move on. But if you want to talk Bible. Then talk Bible by posting a verse.

In any event, I say this all in love and with the hope you might see where I am coming from.

May God bless you.
And please be well.

You are serious?!
You really are so high and mighty that you cannot even be bothered to actually find my fault?
I am trying to play by your rules, but you won't even tell me where I have broken your rules.

What point did I make that wasn't backed by Scripture? Give a quote. One sentence.

I am not making the rules here. You are. I just need some clarity on what I said that you believe was unsupported.

How many hours has it been since I first asked you? And all this while, you have not been able to find anything?
Are my posts really that faultless? Or are you too important to come down to my level to clarify your accusation?

 

[Ukorin]

30 minutes later, and still no quote for me to substantiate with Scripture?
If you ever do find time in your obviously superior schedule to actually respond, I'll be back on tomorrow afternoon to respond with Scripture to whatever unsubstantiated point I made that you have found.

 

[Ukorin]

Also, I'm sorry to have "wasted" your time in trying to have a real discussion. How arrogant of me to assume that my points were worth a direct response.

 

[Jason0047]

Here is what another believer (Who is against OSAS) has written to an OSAS proponent on Hebrews 6:

(Hebrews 6:4-6 NIV) [4] It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, [5] who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, [6] if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.


You need to take the Bible as a whole so you can figure out what is being spoken of. The author of Hebrews is not saying that someone who wanders from the faith can't come back. If that is what is being said, then the Bible contradicts itself and we know that isn't true. Let me show you:


(James 5:19-20 NIV) [19] My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, [20] remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins.


If your assertion for Hebrews 6 is correct then James contradicts it by this passage. As I said we know that God is not the author of confusion, so we can be sure that the passage in Hebrews does not mean what you claim it means. Now our job is to figure out what it does say. First we need to look at who the book of Hebrews was written to. That is pretty simple, since the name of the book tells us. It was written to Jewish believers. That is a very important fact.

What the author is saying is that if anyone who has been saved (placed their faith in the atonement of sacrifice of Jesus Christ) and then goes back into Judaism and tries to have their sins forgiven through the Law, they have rejected the only sacrifice that can take way their sins. They can't later come back because they have already rejected the sacrifice as not being able to totally save them. This is totally different than someone who wanders from the faith as James speaks about. But don't take my word for it, let's see if there is anywhere else in the Bible which would back this conclusion up:


(Galatians 5:2-4 NIV) [2] Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. [3] Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. [4] You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.


Wow, looks the same doesn't it? Here again Paul is speaking to believers and tells them that if they, after believing in Christ, allow themselves to be justified (or attempt to be justified) by the Law then Christ will be of no value to them. They have fallen from grace.

So these passages do expose the error of OSAS. Both of these passages show that it is possible to be lost even after placing faith
in Jesus Christ at one time.

You have also missed the boat on the kind of life a Christian is to live. You have fallen for the false teaching that we all sin in word, deed and thought everyday. Or as you put it we all sin thousands of time each day. That is a false idea and it is a defeatist attitude which does not glorify Christ. Maybe you have missed these passages:


(1 John 3:9-10 NIV) [9] No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. [10] This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.
(1 John 5:18 NIV) We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the one who was born of God keeps him safe, and the evil one cannot harm him.


If a Christian is sinning constantly, they better re-evaluate their relationship with Christ because there is something wrong. Are we perfect? No of course not, we will stumble and sin, but our lives certainly should not be characterized by sin, we certainly should not be sinning thousands of times per day!


(Hebrews 12:14 NIV) Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.

For if we sin and the Holy Spirit convicts us and we refuse to repent and we continue to sin, we are separating ourselves from Christ. We are no longer following Him and at some point, and we will be lost. As these passages show:

(John 15:6 NIV) If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.
(Hebrews 10:26-27 NIV) [26] If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, [27] but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.
(1 Corinthians 15:2 NIV) By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
(1 Corinthians 6:9-10 NIV) [9] Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders [10] nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
(Romans 2:7-8 NIV) [7] To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. [8] But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.
(Romans 11:17-24 NIV) [17] If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, [18] do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. [19] You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." [20] Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. [21] For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
[22] Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. [23] And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. [24] After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!
(Galatians 1:6 NIV) I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel—
(1 Peter 1:15-16 NIV) [15] But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; [16] for it is written: "Be holy, because I am holy."
(1 Thessalonians 3:5 NIV) For this reason, when I could stand it no longer, I sent to find out about your faith. I was afraid that in some way the tempter might have tempted you and our efforts might have been useless.


Source:
You are not reading the bible in it's proper context.
(Side Note: I taken a very small amount of sentences out in the article, because I do not agree with one particular thing he said, but for the most part he is spot on in regards to Hebrews 6).

 

[royalscot]

how many books of the bible, were wrote after 70 ad?

how can you follow, the full law given to moses, after this date, without a temple?

was a new covenent, already in place, before this date?