The Sin of Pacifism

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
C

Calminian

Guest
#1
I've noticed a lot of pacifism sentiments are being expressed in this forum, so I thought I'd challenge them directly here. Jason is one particular advocate, so I'll invite him to dialog and defend his position. I'm actually going to make the argument that pacifism is hateful and one of the worst sins one can commit, so there's quite a contrast between myself and him. To get the ball rolling, I'll quote some of his statements.

The thread I created a little while back at TOL will give you a lot to ponder in God's Word.

ECT Should Christians use guns? - Theology Online | Christian Forums & More
This thread actually directs to a different forum on a different website, so I'll cut and paste some of it here so you don't have switch over.

Should Christians use guns?


True believers in Christ who abide in God's Word are protected by God's angels (Psalm 91:11, 12) (Hebrews 1:14) (unless it is God's will and purpose they suffer for the sake of Christ in preaching the gospel for His glory.


Angels are more powerful than any gun, they have the capacity to send forth fire from out of Heaven upon entire cities. For the angel could do nothing to Sodom and Gomorrah until Lot would come with him (Genesis 19:22). For even Satan (who is an angel) is capable of bringing down fire down from Heaven (Revelation 13:13, 14).


However, the true power is not in just having an angel by your side.
"For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;" ~ (2 Corinthians 10:4)
But it is in having the Word of God abiding in you (Watch the following short video).


Abiding in the Word


Yeah, but what about Jesus telling us to go out and get a sword?


Click on the following spoiler button here to read a good article in answer to this question.
Wasn't able to bring in all over, but this is sufficient to get things going.

Calling on angels instead of guns?:

Regarding protection by angels, this is actually one of the lies that Satan tried to tempt Christ with.

Matt. 4:6 and said to Him, “If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down. For it is written:
“He shall give His angels charge over you,’ and,
‘In their hands they shall bear you up,
Lest you dash your foot against a stone.’

Jesus of course answered,

Matt. 4:7 ...“It is written again, ‘You shall not tempt the LORD your God.’ ”

The implication of this is quite profound. Satan was telling Christ to depend on angels to such an extent that he was tempting Him to do something foolish that would require their assistance. But Christ likened this to testing God—forcing Him to bail you out when you could have bailed yourself out. Christ says this is a sin.

And this to me is the real sin of pacifism, which is never taught in scripture, and often warned about. All ostensible pacifism verses in the new testament actually come from the old testament, and they usually have to do with overlooking insults—turn the other cheek, for example, which I'll touch on shortly.

But when our neighbors and families are in danger, we are obligated out of love to protect them. To be a pacifist at that point is actually an act of hatred. You may think you're loving your enemy, but you're actually hating your neighbors, friends and family, by allowing them to be harmed or worse. I can't imagine a more unloving act than to sit by while your child is harmed or killed, when you could have prevented it with force—even lethal force. Even worse would be to sit around asking angels to bail you out.

Jesus didn't mean a literal sword?:

Now regarding the sword, Jason makes the case that when Jesus told us to sell our cloak and buy one, he was speaking figuratively. He offers no actual evidence of this, but points to other figurative language Jesus used, and the fact that Jesus said turn the other cheek.

Matt. 5:39 But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.

Now this is a situation where familiarity with the audience Jesus was addressing can give great insight into what Jesus was saying. In ANE culture, a slap on the cheek was among the most grievous insults you could give. Perhaps today an equivalent might be spitting, but a slap even today is quite insulting. But, really it's just an insult, and Jesus' point. He was pointing men back to principles taught in the old testament.

Prov. 12:16 Fools show their annoyance at once,
but the prudent overlook an insult.

Don't trade insult for insult. Do go tit for tat with people. Be passive in this regard. It's kind of like the corny children's mantra, "sticks and stones….."

The false teaching comes in, though, when people liken this to being passive with violent acts toward you or your neighbors. "If someone punches you in the rib, turn and offer them the other." Or worse, "if someone abuses your child, offer them another." This is not only a perversion of that text, it's downright evil.

Jesus knew exactly what he was doing when he told his disciples to sell garments to acquire defensive weapons. From the very beginning God's men have had to live in a fallen world. Abraham taught hundreds of men in his household to fight with weapons and had the means to rescue Lot when he was kidnapped by Kedorlaomer (one of the early tyrants of the postdiluvian world).

It's also telling that when the disciples showed him that they had literals swords, He offered no rebuke or correction, "Hey, wait, don't you understand I was not being literal. Get rid of those!" He merely said, "it's enough." And interestingly enough, the disciples never got rid of them, as Peter used one to protect his Lord later on (of course Peter did not understand that Christ needed to be crucified at that point).

God says very plainly in his word that violence needs to be punished and we see Him ordaining violence all throughout scripture. Murder is to be punished by death.

Gen. 9:6 “Whoever sheds human blood,
by humans shall their bloodbe shed;
for in the image of God
has God made mankind.

In Romans 13 we see God specifically ordaining the use of the sword to the governments the churches would abide in. In the old testament, Israel possessed its own government, but the church is to function within within other governments, and God specially advocates the use of weapons and lethal force for those governments.

Rom. 13:4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.

Friends, this is not figurative speech. This is the reality that we live in a fallen world, and our loving God knows this and has ordained a means for self-defense, in both the old and new testaments. Self defense isn't always possible, but when it is, good and honorable and loving.

All ostensible pacifism verses in the new testament are also expressed in the old testament, and usually the new testament writers are merely trying to direct people back to principles God has already taught. Nothing has changed in this regard. The idea that we now sit back and trust angels to protect our families is really a lie put forth by the devil in the wilderness.

Heavy I know. It's one thing to disagree with pacifism, and quite another to call it hateful and evil, but that's my conviction. Many have died and suffered innocently because of this doctrine of demons. Looking forward to any responses.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
J

JesusIsAll

Guest
#2
But when our neighbors and families are in danger, we are obligated out of love to protect them. To be a pacifist at that point is actually an act of hatred. You may think you're loving your enemy, but you're actually hating your neighbors, friends and family, by allowing them to be harmed or worse. I can't imagine a more unloving act than to sit by while your child is harmed or killed, when you could have prevented it with force—even lethal force. Even worse would be to sit around asking angels to bail you out.
Agree. Self righteousness, in the face of certain evils, like dumb criminal violence that doesn't edify the Lord, is wrong, and protecting your family or neighbors prime examples. To lay down for certain evils is to even be complicit. Clearly, we have government, police and military the Lord ordained, because it's righteous to fight against crimes and corporate crimes against humanity.

Romans 13:3-5 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: for he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

And who is charged with "ruling" of the family,

1 Timothy 5:8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

I have absolutely no moral problem, for instance, with the extermination of ISIS, believe this a just war which needs to be fought. To do nothing is to support and encourage these heinous crimes against humanity. I've always liked the saying, though not in the Bible,

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
 
Jul 22, 2014
10,350
51
0
#3
I've noticed a lot of pacifism sentiments are being expressed in this forum, so I thought I'd challenge them directly here. Jason is one particular advocate, so I'll invite him to dialog and defend his position. I'm actually going to make the argument that pacifism is hateful and one of the worst sins one can commit, so there's quite a contrast between myself and him. To get the ball rolling, I'll quote some of his statements.



This thread actually directs to a different forum on a different website, so I'll cut and paste some of it here so you don't have switch over.



Wasn't able to bring in all over, but this is sufficient to get things going.

Calling on angels instead of guns?:

Regarding protection by angels, this is actually one of the lies that Satan tried to tempt Christ with.

Matt. 4:6 and said to Him, “If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down. For it is written:
“He shall give His angels charge over you,’ and,
‘In their hands they shall bear you up,
Lest you dash your foot against a stone.’

Jesus of course answered,

Matt. 4:7 ...“It is written again, ‘You shall not tempt the LORD your God.’ ”

The implication of this is quite profound. Satan was telling Christ to depend on angels to such an extent that he was tempting Him to do something foolish that would require their assistance. But Christ likened this to testing God—forcing Him to bail you out when you could have bailed yourself out. Christ says this is a sin.

And this to me is the real sin of pacifism, which is never taught in scripture, and often warned about. All ostensible pacifism verses in the new testament actually come from the old testament, and they usually have to do with overlooking insults—turn the other cheek, for example, which I'll touch on shortly.

But when our neighbors and families are in danger, we are obligated out of love to protect them. To be a pacifist at that point is actually an act of hatred. You may think you're loving your enemy, but you're actually hating your neighbors, friends and family, by allowing them to be harmed or worse. I can't imagine a more unloving act than to sit by while your child is harmed or killed, when you could have prevented it with force—even lethal force. Even worse would be to sit around asking angels to bail you out.

Jesus didn't mean a literal sword?:

Now regarding the sword, Jason makes the case that when Jesus told us to sell our cloak and buy one, he was speaking figuratively. He offers no actual evidence of this, but points to other figurative language Jesus used, and the fact that Jesus said turn the other cheek.

Matt. 5:39 But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.

Now this is a situation where familiarity with the audience Jesus was addressing can give great insight into what Jesus was saying. In ANE culture, a slap on the cheek was among the most grievous insults you could give. Perhaps today an equivalent might be spitting, but a slap even today is quite insulting. But, really it's just an insult, and Jesus' point. He was pointing men back to principles taught in the old testament.

Prov. 12:16 Fools show their annoyance at once,
but the prudent overlook an insult.

Don't trade insult for insult. Do go tit for tat with people. Be passive in this regard. It's kind of like the corny children's mantra, "sticks and stones….."

The false teaching comes in, though, when people liken this to being passive with violent acts toward you or your neighbors. "If someone punches you in the rib, turn and offer them the other." Or worse, "if someone abuses your child, offer them another." This is not only a perversion of that text, it's downright evil.

Jesus knew exactly what he was doing when he told his disciples to sell garments to acquire defensive weapons. From the very beginning God's men have had to live in a fallen world. Abraham taught hundreds of men in his household to fight with weapons and had the means to rescue Lot when he was kidnapped by Kedorlaomer (one of the early tyrants of the postdiluvian world).

It's also telling that when the disciples showed him that they had literals swords, He offered no rebuke or correction, "Hey, wait, don't you understand I was not being literal. Get rid of those!" He merely said, "it's enough." And interestingly enough, the disciples never got rid of them, as Peter used one to protect his Lord later on (of course Peter did not understand that Christ needed to be crucified at that point).

God says very plainly in his word that violence needs to be punished and we see Him ordaining violence all throughout scripture. Murder is to be punished by death.

Gen. 9:6 “Whoever sheds human blood,
by humans shall their bloodbe shed;
for in the image of God
has God made mankind.

In Romans 13 we see God specifically ordaining the use of the sword to the governments the churches would abide in. In the old testament, Israel possessed its own government, but the church is to function within within other governments, and God specially advocates the use of weapons and lethal force for those governments.

Rom. 13:4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.

Friends, this is not figurative speech. This is the reality that we live in a fallen world, and our loving God knows this and has ordained a means for self-defense, in both the old and new testaments. Self defense isn't always possible, but when it is, good and honorable and loving.

All ostensible pacifism verses in the new testament are also expressed in the old testament, and usually the new testament writers are merely trying to direct people back to principles God has already taught. Nothing has changed in this regard. The idea that we now sit back and trust angels to protect our families is really a lie put forth by the devil in the wilderness.

Heavy I know. It's one thing to disagree with pacifism, and quite another to call it hateful and evil, but that's my conviction. Many have died and suffered innocently because of this doctrine of demons. Looking forward to any responses.
There is a way that seemeth right to a man, but the end thereof is death.

It is one thing to twist a few small select verses out of context to defend a position that is obviously not seen within Scripture. Catholics do the same thing, too. They say that the oral traditions exist within Scripture because the word "traditions" appear. They point to the fact that the apostles spoke the Word of God. This is true. But Revelation closes the book on any new words of God being added to Scripture, though (Yes, I am aware that Revelation 22:18-19 is speaking of the book of Revelation; But I also believe it is speaking of the whole Scripture, too (Actually I am in the process of creating a Sola Scriptura thread to explain that soon)).

Anyways, the funny thing is that you will see NOTHING of the pagan practices (or oral traditions) that the Catholic churches teaches within Scripture. They have to twist just a few small select verses to make the Scriptures say that. But you will see NOTHING of these practices in the New Testament, though. We don't see Jesus or any of the apostles pray to dead saints or bow down too statues, etc. We don't see the apostles lifting up another apostle and dressing him up in fancy holy clothes making him out to be like a god. We didn't see these things within the New Testament because they didn't happen.

To build a case for the existence of the pagan practices of the RCC is like building a house on the sand. There is no clear evidence to prove it. Neither is there any clear case or evidence proving that Jesus and the apostles advocated violence or in going out to fight their enemies with physical weapons or with their fists. On the contrary, we see Jesus and the apostles are persecuted for their faith. They are thrown into prison many times. Surely we would have seen some kind of written testimony of one of the apostles fighting back while they were thrown in prison and or being beaten. Why don't we see the apostles carrying swords after Jesus' ascension? We don't see it because it didn't happen. And to build a case that such a thing did happen when it is clearly not seen in Scripture is again, to build a case that doesn't exist (or to build one's house on the sand).

Anyways, I wanted to give an introductory reply (that refutes your type of wrong thinking on the Scriptures) before I address your specific points. But my challenge to you in the mean time is to please show me where in the New Testament do we see Jesus and the apostles fighting? What doctrine specifically talks about how the believer is to conduct themselves during war time? Is there such a teaching within the New Testament?
 
E

elf3

Guest
#4
Now I am Christian my dad is pastor and I know the Chaplin of the county jail plus a good many other Christian friends (including my wife) who all have their carry conceal liscense. We all carry for the defense of ourselves our families and the general public.
As humans don't we have a moral obligation to defense in time of major violence? If I am in a mall or other public place where I can carry legally and some person starts shooting should I just run away or try to stop the threat of lives being taken? What is my moral obligation? If someone is using the Bible to prove we are to be pacifist in all circumstances give me Biblical proof that I am not to defend myself my family or the general public.
By the way my conceal carry is a .380 my defense gun at home is a 9mm.
 
Jul 22, 2014
10,350
51
0
#5
Agree. Self righteousness, in the face of certain evils, like dumb criminal violence that doesn't edify the Lord, is wrong, and protecting your family or neighbors prime examples. To lay down for certain evils is to even be complicit. Clearly, we have government, police and military the Lord ordained, because it's righteous to fight against crimes and corporate crimes against humanity.
The Lord ordains ALL nations into having power. Doesn't mean those nations are saved.
Romans 9:17 says God raised up Pharoah so that His name might be declared among the Earth. Doesn't mean the Pharoah was saved or that His kingdom was a Godly one.

Romans 13:3-5 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: for he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
The unsaved are even God's ministers. See all things work together for good to them that love God. Do you remember the story of Joseph and what he told his brothers after he revealed who he was? Joseph essentially said to them that what they intended for evil, God intended it for good. The one who bears the sword is not the believer. It is the unbeliever. For if you break the Law of the land which does not conflict with God's laws, be careful because they (the unbeliever) does not bear the sword in vain. Isaiah 10:5-6 sums this up. It says Assyria was at one time God's wrath against a hypocritical nation (i.e. Israel). It says the rod in the Assyrians hand was God's indignation or wrath. It was wrath against Israel to correct them so as to get them to repent. Assyria was God's minister of executing wrath or Judgment. That does not mean the Assyrians were all a saved people or a nation that respected and loved God at that time.

And who is charged with "ruling" of the family,

1 Timothy 5:8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

I have absolutely no moral problem, for instance, with the extermination of ISIS, believe this a just war which needs to be fought. To do nothing is to support and encourage these heinous crimes against humanity. I've always liked the saying, though not in the Bible,

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
1 Timothy 5:8 is speaking in context of finances because it is talking about providing financially for widows who are older (And not for those widows who are younger).

Peter thought like you, too. He took up his sword to defend what he had seen as injustice being done. But Jesus rebuked Peter and said that he that lives by the sword shall die by the sword. Meaning, nothing good is going to come out of you living by the sword but by dying by it. How much more glorious would it be to die for the cause of Christ instead of dying by the sword because you took up the sword? Jesus told Peter he did not need to defend Him for He could call down a ton of angels to protect Him if He wanted to. The same is true today. God can protect you. If you simply believe.
 
J

JesusIsAll

Guest
#6
Peter thought like you, too. He took up his sword to defend what he had seen as injustice being done. But Jesus rebuked Peter and said that he that lives by the sword shall die by the sword.
Now, could it possibly be Peter picked the wrong battle?

Luke 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
 
Jul 22, 2014
10,350
51
0
#7
Now I am Christian my dad is pastor and I know the Chaplin of the county jail plus a good many other Christian friends (including my wife) who all have their carry conceal liscense. We all carry for the defense of ourselves our families and the general public.
As humans don't we have a moral obligation to defense in time of major violence? If I am in a mall or other public place where I can carry legally and some person starts shooting should I just run away or try to stop the threat of lives being taken? What is my moral obligation? If someone is using the Bible to prove we are to be pacifist in all circumstances give me Biblical proof that I am not to defend myself my family or the general public.
By the way my conceal carry is a .380 my defense gun at home is a 9mm.
Doesn't matter who you claim to be. If what you do does not line up with what we see in the Scriptures, then you are running contrary to it. Nowhere did Jesus and the apostles ever show us that we can fight back. On the contrary, Jesus said turn the other cheek. For Jesus pointed out the OT Law saying that talked about an eye for an eye, etc. He was changing that by saying, turn the other cheek instead. For we are to do good towards our enemies. We are to pray for them. How is shooting your enemies good for them? Remember, we walk by faith, and not by sight. If God wanted to protect you or to prevent you from being shot, He can protect you. A gun compared to God's protection is a joke. That's what you are not understanding. You are placing your faith in something outward and physical and you are not placing your faith of protection in God.
 
Last edited:

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
19,212
2,547
113
#8
Okay to the Op first off it is not a sin to choose not to fight and certainly not the worst sin one can commit, Jesus said to turn the other cheek and I never once saw the apostles after they had received the holy spirit fight back when they were arrested or really fight at all. You need to get your facts straight calling something a sin when its not is not something you want God to hear
 
Jul 22, 2014
10,350
51
0
#9
Now, could it possibly be Peter picked the wrong battle?

Luke 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
Jesus was referring to a spiritual sword (i.e. the Word of God). His disciples misunderstood him and bought a physical sword. Jesus rebuke of Peter shows that He was speaking of a spiritual sword and not a physical sword. Jesus did not say, "Good job Peter for listening to my instructions in buying a sword." In other words, it would be deceptive of God to tell you to buy a physical sword and then not use it. God is not the author of confusion.
 
E

elf3

Guest
#10
Yep I knew the turn the other cheek defense would come up.

If someone is violently attacking my wife am I supposed to say "hold on let me tell you about Jesus", kneel down and pray or protect her life in any way I can?
 
C

Calminian

Guest
#11
Okay to the Op first off it is not a sin to choose not to fight and certainly not the worst sin one can commit, Jesus said to turn the other cheek and I never once saw the apostles after they had received the holy spirit fight back when they were arrested or really fight at all. You need to get your facts straight calling something a sin when its not is not something you want God to hear
Blain, if you see someone in need, and don't help them, you are indeed in sin. I'm not advocating going out looking for trouble, but if you see someone in need and you can rescue them but choose not to, based on a false view of pacifism, then, brother you're liable.

James 4:17 If anyone, then, knows the good they ought to do and doesn’t do it, it is sin for them.a

You're to love your enemy yes, but you're also to love your neighbor. What could be more hateful than to sit by and watch them die, when you could have easily prevented it by killing their would-be murderer?

This is what really gets me about pacifists. They don't just love the enemy (which we should do, and is a concept that goes all the way back to the old testament) they elevate the enemy over the neighbor. That is as hateful as it gets, and I would never want a neighbor like that. I want a neighbor like elf3!!

Also please go back and read my statements about turning the other cheek. It has nothing to do with violence.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,742
3,670
113
#12
Jesus was referring to a spiritual sword (i.e. the Word of God). His disciples misunderstood him and bought a physical sword. Jesus rebuke of Peter shows that He was speaking of a spiritual sword and not a physical sword. Jesus did not say, "Good job Peter for listening to my instructions in buying a sword." In other words, it would be deceptive of God to tell you to buy a physical sword and then not use it. God is not the author of confusion.
You were half credible up to this point. Spiriitual sword? Spiritual script? Spiritual clothing....ohkayyy.
Anyways Calminian gave you a great example with Abraham our father of the faith who mustered up his army to battle in order to rescuue Lot his nephew.
Mind answering that?
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
19,212
2,547
113
#13
Blain, if you see someone in need, and don't help them, you are indeed in sin. I'm not advocating going out looking for trouble, but if you see someone in need and you can rescue them but choose not to, based on a false view of pacifism, then, brother you're liable.

James 4:17 If anyone, then, knows the good they ought to do and doesn’t do it, it is sin for them.a

You're to love your enemy yes, but you're also to love your neighbor. What could be more hateful than to sit by and watch them die, when you could have easily prevented it by killing their would-be murderer?

This is what really gets me about pacifists. They don't just love the enemy (which we should do, and is a concept that goes all the way back to the old testament) they elevate the enemy over the neighbor. That is as hateful as it gets, and I would never want a neighbor like that. I want a neighbor like elf3!!

Also please go back and read my statements about turning the other cheek. It has nothing to do with violence.
I personally could not just sit there and let it happen but I wouldnt fight I would try to calmly reason with them and if need be I will fight but not unless its absolutely necessary. But if what you say is true and it is a sin to not fight please provide some scripture as I cannot simply believe anything anyone says is a sin.
 
E

elf3

Guest
#14
All of the apostles that were killed (matyred) died because of their faith.
We have two totally different situations here. I will die for my faith but I will not die or let anyone around me die because some jagoff decided he wanted to kill people.
Can you actually see a difference here?
 
J

JesusIsAll

Guest
#15
Yep I knew the turn the other cheek defense would come up.

If someone is violently attacking my wife am I supposed to say "hold on let me tell you about Jesus", kneel down and pray or protect her life in any way I can?
And even verses like " Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house." Like you could buy a "sword of the spirit," which Spirit is the gift of God. I mean, how much does it cost, that spirit sword, how much scrip buys it? A really bad example the Lord used? Turn the other cheek? "Yes, murderous home invader. I'm real pious, so I will turn the other daughter. She's in the room down the hall, to likewise rape and murder. Boy, am I feeling holy!" Theater of the absurd, self pious, blind exegesis. People who even have rights in their homes protected by other Christians, often, who are armed, such that the thief doesn't know where the home invasion could become a very bad idea. "Pious" people who wouldn't have a Protestant Bible, or any Bible, without the blood of others who fought to buy the rights they enjoy and protect them. Grotesque hypocrisy. You know something else? There's far too much blabbering and pontificating by individuals around here, piling one personal, contradictory opinion on top of another, of no real foundation in scripture.
 
E

elf3

Guest
#16
I personally could not just sit there and let it happen but I wouldnt fight I would try to calmly reason with them and if need be I will fight but not unless its absolutely necessary. But if what you say is true and it is a sin to not fight please provide some scripture as I cannot simply believe anything anyone says is a sin.
Blain I love you and all my friend but you cannot calm someone down who has a gun just randomly shooting people. Notice that in most of these mass shooting situations the killer killed himself.
 

Dan58

Senior Member
Nov 13, 2013
1,991
339
83
#17
Consider the Old testament, God hardly opposed war when He felt it necessary for His people to fight. Imo, there's very little difference between an extreme pacifist and a complete coward. Christians aren't suppose to start problems, in fact they're encourage to walk away in the face of possible trouble, but Paul said; "If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone" (Romans 12;18 NIV). Obviously, if someone wants to decapitate you or is intent on smashing your face, peace is no longer an option and its not possible to avoid conflict as not every situation depends on your own disposition. I'm talking about self-preservation of course, and not vengeance. jmo
 
J

JesusIsAll

Guest
#18
All of the apostles that were killed (matyred) died because of their faith.
We have two totally different situations here. I will die for my faith but I will not die or let anyone around me die because some jagoff decided he wanted to kill people.
Can you actually see a difference here?
Really! "I'm going to die, so that this thug may be edified and continue his rampage. Oh how pious I am!"
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,401
113
#19
It is one thing to twist a few small select verses out of context to defend a position that is obviously not seen within Scripture. ?
I could not even get past this...funny for sure.....! Kind of like the pot calling the kettle black for sure!
 
Mar 18, 2011
2,540
22
0
#20
There is a time for everything.

Ecclesiastes 3

To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven: [SUP]2 [/SUP]A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
[SUP]3 [/SUP]A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
[SUP]4 [/SUP]A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
[SUP]5 [/SUP]A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
[SUP]6 [/SUP]A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
[SUP]7 [/SUP]A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
[SUP]8 [/SUP]A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.


[h=1]Proverbs 20:30King James Version (KJV)[/h] [SUP]30 [/SUP]The blueness of a wound cleanseth away evil: so do stripes the inward parts of the belly.