We establish the Law...but how?

[Yahshua]

Actually, we are grafted into the olive tree, of which believing Israel are branches on the tree,
as are the believing Gentiles.

The tree is the body of Christ, in whom all believers abide, as do branches in the tree.

Please don't mistake me saying we're grafted into the Commonwealth that's currently embroiled in the middle east right now (if that's your discrepancy). I don't believe that particular State is it. I'm talking about the kingdom of which Christ will reign and has yet to return to establish (the one referred to when his disciples asked him when was its time of restoration...at the beginning of Acts). That's the "Israel" I'm referring to; one group. But if you want to say "body of Christ" you can...I just won't because the label is currently too firmly associated with meaning "The Christian Church" (leading people to incorrectly separate flocks of Christ's people). And it's MUCH more than that.

TBH, I rather say "The Messiah's Body...which is Israel".

 

[just-me]

The curses do not still apply.
In the mosaic law it was the curse ( punishment ) to stone a woman to death for adultery.
Lord Jesus says in the new covenant we are under, no that is not the way. For we are all guilty of sin, and deserve to die in them but we are no longer to issue those curses or punishments. Vengeance is Mine, says the Lord.
We are to leave life and death punishments up to Him.

Jesus took our punishment for our sins, and became our sacrifice. Why should we still face them when He took it on Himself.

Commit spiritual adultery and the end result is the same. If we love the woman we will do all to help her to aviod the end result.

 

[Elin]

One has to know the law before trying to establishing it by faith. If ya don't know how, then what is evident? You have not taken the time to read the law because of doctrinal beliefs, or you just don't have the faith to comprehend the Spiritual aspects of it. Oh ya, desire is necessary also.

Hardly. . .we don't "try to establish it". . .nor does Scripure say such.

If you have Christ's law of love written on your heart in the new covenant,
you know what is loving and what is not.
You don't need a written code to explain it to you.

Faith establishes the Mosaic law on a right basis, subordinate to the law of grace which saves,
for the law saved no one.

 

[Elin]

Those who think all the law applies to the Church cherry pick when it comes to the curses...all of a sudden even though the curses went to Israel the Church gets off Scot free. You can't have it both ways, if you are going to apply the law to the Church you must include it's curses otherwise you are contradicting yourself by touting ''ALL Scripture''...such hypocrisy.

Such ignorance. . .born of human thinking.

 

[Elin]

Another ridiculousity appears when saying ALL Scripture applies to the Church is the issue of land.
Not one square cm of land is promised to the church whereas land was promised to Israel.

Not even Mt 5:5?

 

[Elin]

Actually, we are grafted into the olive tree now, of which believing Israel are branches on the tree, as are the believing Gentiles.

The tree is the body of Christ, in whom all believers abide now, as do branches in the tree.

Please don't mistake me saying we're grafted into the Commonwealth that's currently embroiled in the middle east right now (if that's your discrepancy). I don't believe that particular State is it.
I'm talking about the kingdom of which Christ will reign and has yet to return to establish.

Paul does not state that the olive tree is a future temporal kingdom.

He presents us as abiding in it now, it is the body of Christ now.

 

[Yahshua]

Paul does not state that the olive tree is a future temporal kingdom.

He presents us as abiding in it now, it is the body of Christ now.

No one said anything about the future kingdom being "temporal". It will be spiritual and (most specifically) everlasting.

...and truthfully, Paul presented them (not us) as abiding in it at the time he pinned his letter (not now).

The reason why I say this is because the keyword is "abiding" and most now do not (though many claim and think they do). The only way one abides now is to obey. Thus this is not Christ's fully realized kingdom. It is still in building. In the mean time, we are now sojourners in this world looking - by faith - at the kingdom that will be ours.

 

[Elin]

No one said anything about the future kingdom being "temporal".
It will be spiritual and (most specifically) everlasting.

So you're speaking of eternity in the new heavens and new earth?

...and truthfully, Paul presented them (not us) as abiding in it at the time he pinned his letter (not now).

The reason why I say this is because the keyword is "abiding" and most now do not (though many claim and think they do). The only way one abides now is to obey. Thus this is not Christ's fully realized kingdom. It is still in building. In the mean time, we are now sojourners in this world looking - by faith - at the kingdom that will be ours.

But God's kingdom is also within me now (Lk 17:21),
Christ is within me now,
I don't have to wait for the new heavens and new earth to have God's kingdom,
I have it now.

 

[crossnote]

Not even Mt 5:5?

5.1 he sees the multitudes
v.2 He teaches His disciples.
v.5 I believe is part of explaining the kingdom on earth which was rejected in chs 12 and 13 but will be realized by Israel in the Millennium.

 

[Yahshua]

So you're speaking of eternity in the new heavens and new earth?

Yes, True Israel typified by the everlasting body. The vision given to three of the disciples of Christ in his Kingdom (i.e. He, Moses and Elijah all glowing). But we've been through a similar discussion concerning this and I don't want to derail this thread.

But God's kingdom is also within me now (Lk 17:21),
Christ is within me now,
I don't have to wait for the new heavens and new earth to have God's kingdom,
I have it now.

If you believe that I can't challenge it. Christ is the king...this is truth. And if Christ is in you, then God actively reigns over you now (just like I can say the Holy Spirit of Christ is in me now as a deposit on the promised kingdom, and who can challenge my belief).

But the manifestation of God's Kingdom was always followed by certain proofs of restoration (i.e. subduing the powers of the enemy like: sickness, death, violence, etc.) that spread like a wildfire. Each time.

That's what scripture testifies to...and so that's what I base my observations on.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

Please share your understand of "the handwriting of ordinance that was against us" but allow me to share mine first:
The law is either a blessing or curse depending whether the Israelites obey or disobey cf Deuteronomy 28.
He repeated in Deuteronomy 30:11-20 Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it. See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction. For I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in obedience to him, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess. But if your heart turns away and you are not obedient, and if you are drawn away to bow down to other gods and worship them, I declare to you this day that you will certainly be destroyed. You will not live long in the land you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess. This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live and that you may love the Lord your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. For the Lord is your life, and he will give you many years in the land he swore to give to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

There is nothing against the people of God if they choose wisely i.e. to obey His Word.

Now come back to the verse "...nailed the handwriting of ordinances that was against us to the cross." Who are the "us"?

He died on the cross so that our sins are forgiven but the book of Hebrews said' "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left." So what is obeying His commandments helping?

Paul said "What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase?" Grace is not a license to sin.

Paul said "What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law." And he didn't mix the law with grace.

It's either every word coming from the mouth of God or it's all wrong.

The Word of God came to show man how one could live according to His Word. Man does not necessarily have to sin to live.
The Word of God came to show man how one could live a sinless life by the Spirit.
Why does man trust in his weakness and say one could not live by not sinning?

Please share your understand of "the handwriting of ordinance that was against us

The handwriting of ordinances were all those rules and regulations that GOD gave to Moses to give to the children of Israel.(is this a trick question)

The law is either a blessing or curse depending whether the Israelites obey or disobey cf Deuteronomy 28.
He repeated in Deuteronomy 30:11-20 Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it. See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction. For I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in obedience to him, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess. But if your heart turns away and you are not obedient, and if you are drawn away to bow down to other gods and worship them, I declare to you this day that you will certainly be destroyed. You will not live long in the land you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess. This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live and that you may love the Lord your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. For the Lord is your life, and he will give you many years in the land he swore to give to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

The law would be a curse.JESUS(CHRIST)had not come into the world yet,so then the Israelites would not get any help and they would have to be perfect on the inside before you would be accepted nevertheless GOD dealt with them at that time according to the law,so if they would have had faith in GODs word then they would have been accepted but now we are under grace and if someone wants to try and be obedient to GOD in the old testament then they get no help and need to be perfect and if they could be perfect then why did GOD in CHRIST come into this world in flesh.

Now come back to the verse "...nailed the handwriting of ordinances that was against us to the cross." Who are the "us"?

At the time it would be the jews,but you see why paul said "against us" because only JESUS could keep(GODs standard) the law.

He died on the cross so that our sins are forgiven but the book of Hebrews said' "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left." So what is obeying His commandments helping?

the change took place in out spirits and then sealed so no sin would contaminate it,now we are a new creation and don't have a desire to sin,but our bodies have not been glorified yet and needs to be renewed to the change that that took placein the spirit.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

john832 if the LORD says the same i'll try and get back to you tomorrow,i ran out of time(library is closing)

 

[royalscot]

Those who think all the law applies to the Church cherry pick when it comes to the curses...all of a sudden even though the curses went to Israel the Church gets off Scot free. You can't have it both ways, if you are going to apply the law to the Church you must include it's curses otherwise you are contradicting yourself by touting ''ALL Scripture''...such hypocrisy.

lol,( i thinking jesus free )

 

[royalscot]

In the end times many christs shall come but the Christ in the Bible is the Word of God who said man lives by every word coming from the mouth of God.

do you have the dates or religions answer to taboo, or dogma.
and whats, are required for the new covenant believer. (he is a hint) jesus, jesus jesus jesus christ christ christ christ.

 

[royalscot]

lol,( i thinking jesus free )

is free , thats why faith is taboo or dogma, you need a bible to prove it, yet the rhema is silent in the logus. or the logus leads you to the rhema. (the now word of god)

 

[RedTent]

The curses do not still apply.
In the mosaic law it was the curse ( punishment ) to stone a woman to death for adultery.
Lord Jesus says in the new covenant we are under, no that is not the way. For we are all guilty of sin, and deserve to die in them but we are no longer to issue those curses or punishments. Vengeance is Mine, says the Lord.
We are to leave life and death punishments up to Him.

Jesus took our punishment for our sins, and became our sacrifice. Why should we still face them when He took it on Himself.

I think many of these ideas are man made foolishness.

We are punished in this life when adultery is committed. There is forgiveness for sin, even that of adultery. King David and Bathsheba is an example. There was confession, forgiveness, and atonement but still the sin had results in their life. Scripture talks of the seriousness of this sin, of our need to keep it out of our world if we are to live with peace and security. They had stoning for serious crimes before prisons, and our Lord is brought up for ridicule over and over for ever mentioning this punishment. There were so many safeguards as well, but no one see that.

We are living in a world where adultery is accepted as the norm, in fact. There is no protection of marriage for any woman who has children today will probably lose the safety of a Father for her children to care for them. We are being punished for our adultery.

It is also foolishness to say that God chooses what scripture goes to what time or what people. God did not create one world for Israel, one for gentiles, and another for special dates of our world. All people at all times live under one God with one set of principles who acts in one way.

 

[crossnote]

It is also foolishness to say that God chooses what scripture goes to what time or what people. God did not create one world for Israel, one for gentiles, and another for special dates of our world. All people at all times live under one God with one set of principles who acts in one way.

So the curses warned to Israel also apply to the Church? Christians can't eat pork? The Church is to ready herself for a flood by water. Please.

 

[psychomom]

I think many of these ideas are man made foolishness.

We are punished in this life when adultery is committed. There is forgiveness for sin, even that of adultery. King David and Bathsheba is an example. There was confession, forgiveness, and atonement but still the sin had results in their life. Scripture talks of the seriousness of this sin, of our need to keep it out of our world if we are to live with peace and security. They had stoning for serious crimes before prisons, and our Lord is brought up for ridicule over and over for ever mentioning this punishment. There were so many safeguards as well, but no one see that.

We are living in a world where adultery is accepted as the norm, in fact. There is no protection of marriage for any woman who has children today will probably lose the safety of a Father for her children to care for them. We are being punished for our adultery.

It is also foolishness to say that God chooses what scripture goes to what time or what people. God did not create one world for Israel, one for gentiles, and another for special dates of our world. All people at all times live under one God with one set of principles who acts in one way.

well, Ma'am, there's a difference under the New Covenant between curses and consequences.
there will almost always be consequences when we sin...horizontally.
between us and other people.
but our forgiveness in Christ is forever fixed. we can't undo it.

and though i agree with you that sin is, indeed, serious business,
there are believers worldwide living in accordance with the rules
who are experiencing the opposite of peace and security.

 

[Elin]

I think many of these ideas are man made foolishness.

We are punished in this life when adultery is committed. There is forgiveness for sin, even that of adultery. King David and Bathsheba is an example. There was confession, forgiveness, and atonement but still the sin had results in their life. Scripture talks of the seriousness of this sin, of our need to keep it out of our world if we are to live with peace and security. They had stoning for serious crimes before prisons, and our Lord is brought up for ridicule over and over for ever mentioning this punishment. There were so many safeguards as well, but no one see that.

We are living in a world where adultery is accepted as the norm, in fact. There is no protection of marriage for any woman who has children today will probably lose the safety of a Father for her children to care for them. We are being punished for our adultery.

It is also foolishness to say that God chooses what scripture goes to what time or what people. God did not create one world for Israel, one for gentiles, and another for special dates of our world.
All people at all times live under one God with one set of principles who acts in one way.

And that set of principles for those in the new covenant is the law of Christ (Mt 22:37-39),
which is the law of God (1Co 9:21), written on the heart (Jer 31:33),
and which fulfills the law of Moses (Mt 22:40; Ro 13:8-10; Gal 5:6),
without a myriad of regulations to do so, the Holy Spirit giving us to know in our hearts
what is loving and what is not.

If the Holy Spirit dwells within you, you know what is loving and what is not.
God has freed us from an external written code and written his law of love internally on our hearts.
It is ours to believe it.

 

[royalscot]

Commit spiritual adultery and the end result is the same. If we love the woman we will do all to help her to aviod the end result.

.7 But when they persisted in asking Him, He straightened up, and said to them, "He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her John 8