Conditional Salvation

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Mar 12, 2014
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no, it doesn't.

ROMANS 6:
6 We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.

HAVING BELIEVED, OUR OLD SELF ALREADY CRUCIFIED WITH HIM

7 For one who has died has been set free from sin.

ALREADY DEAD, ALREADY FREE

8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.

ALREADY DEAD THROUGH HIM AND ALSO ALIVE IN HIM

9 We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. 10 For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God.

BECAUSE WE ARE CRUCIFIED WITH HIM, WE ARE ALREADY FREE WITH HIM

11 So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

REALIZE IT IS TRUE!

12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions.

AND THEREFORE LIVE LIKE IT IS TRUE!


I was referring to Rom 6:16-18 where Paul said "Obedience UNTO righteousness".

Rom 6:17 "But God be thanked, that (1)ye were the servants of sin, but (2)ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you."
Rom 6:18 "
Being (3)then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness."

They went from being
1) servants of sins
then
2) obeyed from the heart
then
3) freed from sin (justified)
 
Mar 12, 2014
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It's in the faith chapter of Hebrews so let me guess it was because of his works? No it was because of his belief in Gods word. His faith was counted to him for righteousness sake. It was by grace that God counted him righteous.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

The issue I was raising is if NONE are righteous then why is Abel called righteous?
 
Mar 12, 2014
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Re: CONDITIONAL DOCTRINAL SANITY

no repentance, no salvation. He never had faith in the gos[el which condemned him. No faith no salvation. Are you people that gullible to think they were ever saved?



I agree: no repentance = no salvation.

That can only mean belief only = no salvation.


eternally-grateful said:
They believe in Christ?? yeah right!
So no confession = no salvation which means belief only = no salvation.

eteranlly-grateful said:

I was saved by faith, I was not baptized for remission, but because of remission. So am I not saved?
A saving faith includes baptism as it also includes repentance and confession.

in Acts 2:38 the order of the verse puts repentance and baptism BEFORE remission of sins, not after. One is not baptize because his sins are already remitted no more than one repents because his sins are already remitted.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Re: CONDITIONAL DOCTRINAL SANITY

[/COLOR]I agree: no repentance = no salvation.

That can only mean belief only = no salvation.




So no confession = no salvation which means belief only = no salvation.



A saving faith includes baptism as it also includes repentance and confession.

in Acts 2:38 the order of the verse puts repentance and baptism BEFORE remission of sins, not after. One is not baptize because his sins are already remitted no more than one repents because his sins are already remitted.


wrong.

When are you people going to look up acts 2 in the greek to see the flaw in your doctrine, the people in acts 2 had remission of sin before they were baptised. not after.


when are you going to repent of your sin and works, and just trust God?
 
Mar 12, 2014
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Romans six speaks of people who were freed from their sin. And asks the question if they should live in it. Your wrong, period


John simply states that anyone who claims salvation, but continues in sin, they have never known God. He also states a person who knows God can not sin.. funny how you LAWyers love to pick verses out of context to make your false gospel



So we cant earn eternal life, but we have to earn eternal life.. Make up your mind.. Your confused. You can't do both

Rom 6:17-18 shows that they obeyed from the heart, then being freed from sin. Obedience BEFORE freed from sin and that is why Paul says "obedience UNTO righteousness"

John is saying whosoever/anyone that continues in sin (continues in doing unrighteousness) continues to NOT be of God.

Salvation is a free gift that is offered to man so man cannot earn it but man must meet the conditions Christ put upon His free gift. This is why Jesus said to labor for the meat that endures unto everlasting life, Jn 6:27.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Rom 6:17-18 shows that they obeyed from the heart, then being freed from sin. Obedience BEFORE freed from sin and that is why Paul says "obedience UNTO righteousness"

Yep. They obeyed the gospel. Trusted Christ, And because of it became righteousness of God in him. If you would read romans 3 you would see. It ONLY comes through faith. NOT WORKS.



John is saying whosoever/anyone that continues in sin (continues in doing unrighteousness) continues to NOT be of God.
No, He says they have never seen him, nor have they ever known him. They were never saved .

He also said whoever is BORN OF GOD can not sin. It is being born of God which separates them, Not doing good or not..

Salvation is a free gift that is offered to man so man cannot earn it but man must meet the conditions Christ put upon His free gift. This is why Jesus said to labor for the meat that endures unto everlasting life, Jn 6:27.
A free gift has no conditions, if it does, it is not free. but must be paid for by meeting the conditions.

If you people would just listen to yourself. you would see how you sound, and realize your huge mistake.
 
Mar 12, 2014
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perhaps it is better not to skip vv 9-10

What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, as it is written:
“None is righteous, no, not one"
(Romans 3:9-10)

it is not only the Jews who are condemned under the law and made free in Christ. Jew and Gentile alike are under sin, which is revealed by the law. yes, he is clearly telling us the Jew is not better off, but that is not the only thing he is saying.

this is plainly seen in v 19 too -

Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.
(Romans 3:19-20)

the whole world is accountable to God; every mouth will be stopped, and no human being is justified by the law, Jew nor Gentile.

the Gentile is not any better than the Jew just because the Jew is every bit as condemned as the Gentile. this is written for all of us, not just the Jews.
all of us, Jew and Gentile alike, have salvation only because of the mercy of God.


Rom 3:9 "What then? are we (JEWS) better than they (GENTILES)? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they (GROUPS JEWS & GENTILES) are all (GROUPS JEWS & GENTILES) under sin;"

Paul is dealing with classes, bodies that made up man-kind, Jews and Gentiles and not individuals specifically.

IN verse 11-18 Paul quotes OT verses to prove the the group JEW they are not better than the group GENTILE.

Verse 19
"Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God."

The law was given to the Jews and Paul is essentially telling the Jews that the OT law that was given to them, that your own law says that you Jews are sinners, so close your mouth about the Gentiles for the group Jew is under sin too. The "whole world" was made up of the two groups; Jew and non-Jew. So Paul concluded all (Jew & Gentile) are under sin.
 
Mar 12, 2014
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Re: CONDITIONAL DOCTRINAL SANITY


wrong.

When are you people going to look up acts 2 in the greek to see the flaw in your doctrine, the people in acts 2 had remission of sin before they were baptised. not after.


when are you going to repent of your sin and works, and just trust God?

You posted yourself "no repentance, no salvation".

So all the belief only in the world will never save the impenitent person.

In the Greek 'eis' means looking forward, to obtain and in the approximately 1700 times it is found in the bible it is NEVER translated 'because". Why? It does NOT mean 'because". There is a completely different Greek word that means 'because'
 
Mar 12, 2014
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Yep. They obeyed the gospel. Trusted Christ, And because of it became righteousness of God in him. If you would read romans 3 you would see. It ONLY comes through faith. NOT WORKS.





No, He says they have never seen him, nor have they ever known him. They were never saved .

He also said whoever is BORN OF GOD can not sin. It is being born of God which separates them, Not doing good or not..



A free gift has no conditions, if it does, it is not free. but must be paid for by meeting the conditions.

If you people would just listen to yourself. you would see how you sound, and realize your huge mistake.

Yes, they obeyed from the heart THEN BEING made freed from sin. Paul did NOT say they were freed from sin THEN obeyed from the heart.


Whosoever continues to live in sin and never works righteousness will continue to not be of God. John's language makes it IMPOSSIBLE for one to ever be of God without ever working righteousness.



Free gifts can and do come with conditions and meeting the conditions in no way earns the free gift.
The free gift of salvation comes with the condition of belief, repentance confession and baptism for remission of sins. Else one must argue the unbeliever, impenitent, denier of Christ who is lost in his unforgiven sins is saved.


A refresher link below with biblically based facts that free gifts can and do come with conditions:

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/94634-free-gifts-come-conditions.html
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Re: CONDITIONAL DOCTRINAL SANITY

You posted yourself "no repentance, no salvation".
And? repentance is not baptism. they are two different things. Your point?

So all the belief only in the world will never save the impenitent person.

In the Greek 'eis' means looking forward, to obtain and in the approximately 1700 times it is found in the bible it is NEVER translated 'because". Why? It does NOT mean 'because". There is a completely different Greek word that means 'because'
wrong again.

This is a typical response from someone who needs to prove their point.

Peter said repent (plural 2nd person) A command given to ALL who he is speaking to. Usually spoken to YOU.

he also said, be baptized (singular, 3rd person) A third person is not the same as second, Instead of You do this, it would be he she or it, or they.

Peter is telling all of you (everyone) repent, And let individuals (he or she) be baptized.

I can go further, But if you do not believe this, you will not believe anything, If repent and baptism was essential, He would have told EVERYONE to repent AND be baptised. he did not.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Yes, they obeyed from the heart THEN BEING made freed from sin. Paul did NOT say they were freed from sin THEN obeyed from the heart.

Yep they did. They obeyed john 3: 16, (have faith in the son) They obeyed romans 10 (call out on the name of the lord)

You have to be saved, before you can do any good. If you have to do good then, then it is a gospel of works. not grace, and salvation must be earned.



Whosoever continues to live in sin and never works righteousness will continue to not be of God. John's language makes it IMPOSSIBLE for one to ever be of God without ever working righteousness.
Yep. Which proves my point, If your not born of God, you will never do any good. Being born of God comes first. Not after works.

Free gifts can and do come with conditions and meeting the conditions in no way earns the free gift.
The free gift of salvation comes with the condition of belief, repentance confession and baptism for remission of sins. Else one must argue the unbeliever, impenitent, denier of Christ who is lost in his unforgiven sins is saved.


A refresher link below with biblically based facts that free gifts can and do come with conditions:

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/94634-free-gifts-come-conditions.html
Wrong.

Something free is not earned.

if you must do work, you work for a reward. not a gift Paul makes this clear in romans 4.

I pray you do not offer your kids free gifts, For you would be decieving them when you make them work for it.

 
Mar 12, 2014
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Re: CONDITIONAL DOCTRINAL SANITY

And? repentance is not baptism. they are two different things. Your point?
I agree that repentance is not baptism. But the point is can belief only save an impenitent person?


eternally-grateful said:
wrong again.

This is a typical response from someone who needs to prove their point.

Peter said repent (plural 2nd person) A command given to ALL who he is speaking to. Usually spoken to YOU.

he also said, be baptized (singular, 3rd person) A third person is not the same as second, Instead of You do this, it would be he she or it, or they.

Peter is telling all of you (everyone) repent, And let individuals (he or she) be baptized.

I can go further, But if you do not believe this, you will not believe anything, If repent and baptism was essential, He would have told EVERYONE to repent AND be baptised. he did not.

Peter is speaking to the same group of people. The people Peter commanded to repent is the same people he commanded to be baptized. Peter's language makes it impossible for any of them to have their sins remitted without repenting and being baptized.

--The conjunction "and" ties repentance to baptism making them inseparable. The grammar cannot separate repentance from baptism.... BOTH remain BEFORE remission of sins.

--"for the remission of sins" is a modifying phrase giving the purpose for being baptized.

--both verbs "repent" and "be baptized" are in the imperative mood. The imperative mood, if for no other reason, makes them both necessary.

Acts 2:38 "Then Peter said unto them, Repent (plural), and be baptized every one of you (plural) in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

Peter did use a plural for both repent and baptized. The plural 'you' modifying "be baptized".

The singular "every one" combined with the plural "you" would make all the hearers understand they are each being baptized for his own sins. Peter's language does not allow for 'proxy' baptisms.


Look at Acts 2:41 at how people responded to Peter's words "
Then they that gladly received his word were baptized:" They understood Peter commanded them to be baptized so they were baptized. The language of this verse also implies that rejecting being baptized is rejecting the gospel word...one has NOT received the gospel word until he is baptized.
 
Mar 12, 2014
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Yep they did. They obeyed john 3: 16, (have faith in the son) They obeyed romans 10 (call out on the name of the lord)

You have to be saved, before you can do any good. If you have to do good then, then it is a gospel of works. not grace, and salvation must be earned.





Yep. Which proves my point, If your not born of God, you will never do any good. Being born of God comes first. Not after works.



Wrong.

Something free is not earned.

if you must do work, you work for a reward. not a gift Paul makes this clear in romans 4.

I pray you do not offer your kids free gifts, For you would be decieving them when you make them work for it.

You're ignoring where Paul said they OBEYED from the heart, THEN BEING freed from sin...."obedience UNTO salvation".

1 Jn 3:10 does NOT say " If your not born of God, you will never do any good"

John says as long as you continue to NOT work righteousness you CONTINUE to NOT be of God. The implication is one is NOT of God/NOT born of God until he first works righteousness.


You have not proven that free gifts cannot come with conditions. The link I provided gave BIBLE examples of free gifts coming with conditions.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
You're ignoring where Paul said they OBEYED from the heart, THEN BEING freed from sin...."obedience UNTO salvation".

1 Jn 3:10 does NOT say " If your not born of God, you will never do any good"

John says as long as you continue to NOT work righteousness you CONTINUE to NOT be of God. The implication is one is NOT of God/NOT born of God until he first works righteousness.


You have not proven that free gifts cannot come with conditions. The link I provided gave BIBLE examples of free gifts coming with conditions.
Your ignoring HOW they obeyed, WHAT they obeyed, and WHEN they were saved.

Enough said.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Re: CONDITIONAL DOCTRINAL SANITY

I agree that repentance is not baptism. But the point is can belief only save an impenitent person?
Belief will never save anyone, Faith will. And yes, faith only will save a person. Because they trust God.

Peter is speaking to the same group of people. The people Peter commanded to repent is the same people he commanded to be baptized. Peter's language makes it impossible for any of them to have their sins remitted without repenting and being baptized.

--The conjunction "and" ties repentance to baptism making them inseparable. The grammar cannot separate repentance from baptism.... BOTH remain BEFORE remission of sins.

--"for the remission of sins" is a modifying phrase giving the purpose for being baptized.

--both verbs "repent" and "be baptized" are in the imperative mood. The imperative mood, if for no other reason, makes them both necessary.

Acts 2:38 "Then Peter said unto them, Repent (plural), and be baptized every one of you (plural) in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

Peter did use a plural for both repent and baptized. The plural 'you' modifying "be baptized".

The singular "every one" combined with the plural "you" would make all the hearers understand they are each being baptized for his own sins. Peter's language does not allow for 'proxy' baptisms.


Look at Acts 2:41 at how people responded to Peter's words "
Then they that gladly received his word were baptized:" They understood Peter commanded them to be baptized so they were baptized. The language of this verse also implies that rejecting being baptized is rejecting the gospel word...one has NOT received the gospel word until he is baptized.
Wrong, Peter commanded everyone to repent. But only some to be baptised.

Your not thinking my friend.. Why did he only tell some to be baptised. and why?
 
Dec 9, 2011
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if you repent are you not obeying the word?.....so one must obey in order to repent...
I think you are saying that obedience needs to come before repentance and I think that repentance should be in truth while obedience can be a work of the flesh if its not done in faith or I mean if you are doing it to get GOD to move as in GOD look at the good work I did.
 
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elf3

Guest

wrong.

When are you people going to look up acts 2 in the greek to see the flaw in your doctrine, the people in acts 2 had remission of sin before they were baptised. not after.


when are you going to repent of your sin and works, and just trust God?
Sad to say that as long as they keep trying to "save themselves" or add to the blood of Christ it will never happen. It has to ALL be given to God before He can take the "sleep" out of their eyes. As long as we rely on ourselves for salvation we can never see the truth.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Sad to say that as long as they keep trying to "save themselves" or add to the blood of Christ it will never happen. It has to ALL be given to God before He can take the "sleep" out of their eyes. As long as we rely on ourselves for salvation we can never see the truth.
yes, reminds me of what Jesus himself said, the first thing we must be is poor in spirit. to get the kingdom of God. This poor being completely bankrupt. completely reliable on someone else. Until we do this, we will never see the kingdom of God
 
Apr 26, 2014
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salvation is not conditional.
if it is, Christ didn't DO enough