Gods Mercy,Why the Jews are Still Gods Chosen People

[GuessWho]

I'm not arguing that faith is not required and that the true Israel are those who were not only born in the lineage of Jacob but had faith in their Messiah. In Galatians the gentiles didn’t want to become physical Jews per se but were told they had to be circumcisied to be saved by the false teachers.

The gentiles wanted to become part of Abraham's family. That's why they got circumcised.

So don't worry, I'm not into a legalistic Judaism even though I believe God will be dealing with them directly in the near future.

The circumcision and the Law are not "legalism". They are the key symbols of the Jewish nationalistic pride. Saint Paul says that we should put aside "childish" things because we are now "men". He doesn't mean that we should despise the Law and and the Jewish religious exclusivism as they were some bad things. They are not bad things but preparatory means for the real circumcision (of the heart), for the real Abraham's children, for the real Law (of the New Covenant).

Paul says trust Christ alone, His work alone and do not put your faith in works [religious exclusivism] such as circumcision, Law etc. He talks about the Jews and their ethnical pride. And then He continues "is God only the God of the Jews?". No, His people are now all who believe in Christ.

 

[psalm6819]

The gentiles wanted to become part of Abraham's family. That's why they got circumcised.



The circumcision and the Law are not "legalism". They are the key symbols of the Jewish nationalistic pride. Saint Paul says that we should put aside "childish" things because we are now "men". He doesn't mean that we should despise the Law and and the Jewish religious exclusivism as they were some bad things. They are not bad things but preparatory means for the real circumcision (of the heart), for the real Abraham's children, for the real Law (of the New Covenant).

Paul says trust Christ alone, His work alone and do not put your faith in works [religious exclusivism] such as circumcision, Law etc. He talks about the Jews and their ethnical pride. And then He continues "is God only the God of the Jews?". No, His people are now all who believe in Christ.

"the real Abraham's children? the real law?" can you expound upon this? Are you saying God will not keep His promises to Israel? or are you trying to say that the church is israel? Its seeming like you contradict yourself...

 

[GuessWho]

Your correct.

When Israel says "yes in christ" Then as all the OT prophets, Paul in romans 11, and so many other places. They will be restored as in accordance with lev 26.

so not sure what your point is, we agree that yes must come first.

Not only national Israel says "yes" in Christ (national Israel didn't even say "yes", btw). All God's saving promises and purposes are "yes" in what Christ did (for all those who believe in Him, whether Jew or Gentile).

 

[GuessWho]

"the real Abraham's children? the real law?" can you expound upon this? Are you saying God will not keep His promises to Israel? or are you trying to say that the church is israel? Its seeming like you contradict yourself...

Not at all. Not only God kept His promises to Israel, but He did in such way (through Christ life on earth, Sacrifice and Resurrection) that all people (regardless of their religious, cultural, racial background) can now enter into the New Covenant and become Abraham's [spiritual] children.

I am not contradicting myself. Those who fail to see the promises of God fulfilled in Jesus Christ deny the Gospel.

 

[prodigal]

[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica]Joshua 21:43-45, And the LORD gave unto Israel ALL the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein. And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to ALL that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered ALL their enemies into their hand. There failed not ought of ANY good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; ALL CAME TO PASS.

[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica]Joshua 23:14, And, behold, this day I am going the way of all the earth: and ye know in all your hearts and in all your souls, that not one thing hath failed of all the good things which the LORD your God spake concerning you; ALL ARE COME TO PASS UNTO YOU, and NOT ONE THING HATH FAILED THEREOF.

[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica]1 Kings 8:56 Blessed be the LORD, that hath given rest unto his people Israel, according to ALL that he promised: there hath not failed ONE word of all his good promise, which he promised by the hand of Moses his servant.[/FONT]

 

[crossnote]

All promises of God have been fulfilled in Jesus Christ; now, we, christians, His people, wait for the coming of His Kingdom.

1. The first prophecy will be fulfilled at His Second Coming when the earth and heaven will be joined together in what the Bible calls the New Earth and the New Heaven (God's Kingdom).
2. The second prophecy had been also fulfilled by Jesus Christ: what do you think He did on the cross? Who is the real enemy of the people (Israel)? Rome? The Gentiles? Christ showed them the real enemy that must be defeated: Sin.
3. The Jews rejected Christ: His restoration is not a national restoration, but the restoration of His Kingdom. Who is part ofHis Kingdom? If His people rejected Him, if His people refused the invitation to the wedding, then His people is those (both Jews and Gentiles) who accepted Christ. In other words: the Christian Church.
4. Christ fulfilled that prophecy too: He entered in Jerusalem and was received like a King; only that His throne was the cross. Now we wait for His glorious Second Coming.
5. The fifth point refers to the Kingdom of God (again). All christians are looking for the establishment of God's Kingdom (a Kingdom not of this earth, not political nor nationalistic).

Your first sentence states all prophecies have been fulfilled in Christ then your point #1 says that 'the first prophecy will be fulfilled at His second coming. The tenses you use are confusing.

 

[GuessWho]

In His first coming Jeus was a sacrifice-nobody killed Him, the Ultimate Passover Lamb. In His Second Coming He rules over the nations with a rod of iron. Yes, His sacrifice and resurrection are fulfillment of prophecy, as will be the calling away fo the church and He Will rule physically as the King of Kings on earth. That's the apex of our Bible-the Return of the King!!! He'll keep His promises to Israel, the Church and cast Satan down forever.

I saw Crossnote liked your post. Does this mean that you, Crossnote, agree that the Church is the [spiritual] Israel?

For psalm6819,

How does you comment respond to my question? Is Christ the Messiah and the King? Yes or no? Has the new age (the kingdom of God) dawned with Christ's life, Sacrifice and Resurrection, yes or no? All the prophecies and promises from the O.T. had happened already. The Church of Christ is now waiting for the final restoration (resurrectiom and kingdom). What Zion? What Return? These are already happening in the Church of Christ orientated to eschatology. Christians are already pre-tasting the Kingdom of God in the Church of Christ. Kingdom of God is within us (it grows secretly like a seed), God is already with us through the Holy Spirit. Now we see like through a mirror, but then (at the right time) we will see and taste His kingdom in all its glory.

 

[prodigal]

Jeremiah 31[SUP]36 [/SUP]If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the Lord, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

1kings9:6"But if you or your sons indeed turn away from following Me, and do not keep My commandments and My statutes which I have set before you, and go and serve other gods and worship them, 7then I will cut off Israel from the land which I have given them, and the house which I have consecrated for My name, I will cast out of My sight. So Israel will become a proverb and a byword among all peoples. 8"And this house will become a heap of ruins; everyone who passes by will be astonished and hiss and say, 'Why has the LORD done thus to this land and to this house?'…

romans 11 [SUP]20 [/SUP]Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

jews like paul that accepted christ are the remnant of israel.. romans 10

 

[GuessWho]

Your first sentence states all prophecies have been fulfilled in Christ then your point #1 says that 'the first prophecy will be fulfilled at His second coming. The tenses you use are confusing.

I'll rephrase then. The kingdom is, like Christ said, already here (because He is God). He ascended to Heaven, sent the Holy Spirit to guide His Church (His people, His spiritual Israel) and He will return for a Second Time. This time He will come gloriously, will rule the whole cosmos and will establish the New Earth and Heaven.

 

[Straightshot]

Salvation is one thing and offered to all regardless of national standing

.... however, the Lord intends to preserve a remnant part of believing national Israel for His purposes .... and this is an entirely different matter

To deny this is to refute His intents

This intent is presented throughout the scriptures, past and future

And the denial usually reflects something wrong with professing Christians who openly deny

If one looks closely beneath the face of the denial, many things will be uncovered with regard to the teaching of the movement or religious persuasion held

There is something wrong with the claim to be a Christian while at the same time the carrier is standing against a biblical truth related to the Lord and His national people

 

[GuessWho]

Your first sentence states all prophecies have been fulfilled in Christ then your point #1 says that 'the first prophecy will be fulfilled at His second coming. The tenses you use are confusing.

Also, look at the parables Jesus uses in order to explain the Kingdom: a wedding where the chosen ones (national, physical Israel) do not show up, instead the "wrong" ones accept the invitation to the party. I say this as a corroboration of what I said earlier: that the Church is now the New Israel (the spiritual Israel). Christ Himself said that the kingdom is here. Only that it wasn't like the Jews expected to. When talking with the Pharisees, Christ said that the kingdom is within us; this is another case where Christ oppose the real kingdom to the jewish expectation.

 

[GuessWho]

Salvation is one thing and offered to all regardless of national standing

.... however, the Lord intends to preserve a remnant part of believing national Israel for His purposes .... and this is an entirely different matter

To deny this is to refute His intents

This intent is presented throughout the scriptures, past and future

And the denial usually reflects something wrong with professing Christians who openly deny

If one looks closely beneath the face of the denial, many things will be uncovered with regard to the teaching of the movement or religious persuasion held

There is something wrong with the claim to be a Christian while at the same time the carrier is standing against a biblical truth related to the Lord and His national people

Salvation has everything to do with the promises from the O.T. How can you say it's a totally different thing? Didn't Israel waited for a promised Messiah to save them? Is Christ not the promised Messiah?

 

[ELECT]

[h=1]Isaiah 62:5-8King James Version (KJV)[/h]5 For as a young man marrieth a virgin, so shall thy sons marry thee: and as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee.
6 I have set watchmen upon thy walls, O Jerusalem, which shall never hold their peace day nor night: ye that make mention of the Lord, keep not silence,
7 And give him no rest, till he establish, and till he make Jerusalem a praise in the earth.
8 The Lord hath sworn by his right hand, and by the arm of his strength, Surely I will no more give thy corn to be meat for thine enemies; and the sons of the stranger shall not drink thy wine, for the which thou hast laboured:

 

[prodigal]

Salvation is one thing and offered to all regardless of national standing

.... however, the Lord intends to preserve a remnant part of believing national Israel for His purposes .... and this is an entirely different matter

To deny this is to refute His intents

This intent is presented throughout the scriptures, past and future

And the denial usually reflects something wrong with professing Christians who openly deny

If one looks closely beneath the face of the denial, many things will be uncovered with regard to the teaching of the movement or religious persuasion held

There is something wrong with the claim to be a Christian while at the same time the carrier is standing against a biblical truth related to the Lord and His national people

many jews (the remnant) accepted jesus, paul being 1 of thousands

 

[crossnote]

Joshua 21:43-45, And the LORD gave unto Israel ALL the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein. And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to ALL that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered ALL their enemies into their hand. There failed not ought of ANY good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; ALL CAME TO PASS.

Joshua 23:14, And, behold, this day I am going the way of all the earth: and ye know in all your hearts and in all your souls, that not one thing hath failed of all the good things which the LORD your God spake concerning you; ALL ARE COME TO PASS UNTO YOU, and NOT ONE THING HATH FAILED THEREOF.

1 Kings 8:56 Blessed be the LORD, that hath given rest unto his people Israel, according to ALL that he promised: there hath not failed ONE word of all his good promise, which he promised by the hand of Moses his servant.

Some theologians have insisted that the statement in Joshua 21:43 means that the land promise of the Abrahamic Covenant was fulfilled then. But this cannot be true because later the Bible gives additional predictions about Israel possessing the land after the time of Joshua (e. g., Amos 9:14- 15). Joshua 21:43, therefore, refers to the extent of the land as outlined in Numbers 34 and not to the ultimate extent as it will be in the messianic kingdom (Gen. 15:18- 21). Also though Israel possessed the land at this time it was later dispossessed, whereas the Abrahamic Covenant promised Israel that she would possess the land forever (Gen. 17:8). (BKC)

 

[crossnote]

Also, look at the parables Jesus uses in order to explain the Kingdom: a wedding where the chosen ones (national, physical Israel) do not show up, instead the "wrong" ones accept the invitation to the party. I say this as a corroboration of what I said earlier: that the Church is now the New Israel (the spiritual Israel). Christ Himself said that the kingdom is here. Only that it wasn't like the Jews expected to. When talking with the Pharisees, Christ said that the kingdom is within us; this is another case where Christ oppose the real kingdom to the jewish expectation.

So what Christ promised believing Israel in the OT got chucked? How do you know His promises to us wont get the same treatment?

Romans 11:28-29
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

 

[crossnote]

Also, look at the parables Jesus uses in order to explain the Kingdom: a wedding where the chosen ones (national, physical Israel) do not show up, instead the "wrong" ones accept the invitation to the party. I say this as a corroboration of what I said earlier: that the Church is now the New Israel (the spiritual Israel). Christ Himself said that the kingdom is here. Only that it wasn't like the Jews expected to. When talking with the Pharisees, Christ said that the kingdom is within us; this is another case where Christ oppose the real kingdom to the jewish expectation.

just because Jesus revealed the spiritual aspect of the kingdom does not mean that there isn't a physical aspect as well. You do have a body as well as a soul, correct?

 

[GuessWho]

So what Christ promised believing Israel in the OT got chucked? How do you know His promises to us wont get the same treatment?

Romans 11:28-29
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

????

God fulfilled His saving purpose. To deny that is to deny the cross, the resurrection, the actual fulfillment of the promises in O.T. by Christ, to deny the New Testament, Romans, Galatians, Revelation, in a word: denial of Christ.

You have the right to do that, but don't claim to be a christian then.

 

[GuessWho]

just because Jesus revealed the spiritual aspect of the kingdom does not mean that there isn't a physical aspect as well. You do have a body as well as a soul, correct?

Correct. I already said that the kingdom expected by the christians is a joining of earth and heaven (physical+spiritual) in what the Bible calls the New Earth and New Heaven. So yes, you are correct (and I don't remember to have said otherwise) that the final restoration is both physical and spiritual (since our bodies will be resurrected and since the kingdom of God is like a marriage between earth and heaven).

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The gentiles wanted to become part of Abraham's family. That's why they got circumcised.



The circumcision and the Law are not "legalism". They are the key symbols of the Jewish nationalistic pride. Saint Paul says that we should put aside "childish" things because we are now "men". He doesn't mean that we should despise the Law and and the Jewish religious exclusivism as they were some bad things. They are not bad things but preparatory means for the real circumcision (of the heart), for the real Abraham's children, for the real Law (of the New Covenant).

Paul says trust Christ alone, His work alone and do not put your faith in works [religious exclusivism] such as circumcision, Law etc. He talks about the Jews and their ethnical pride. And then He continues "is God only the God of the Jews?". No, His people are now all who believe in Christ.

so your saying circumcision is required for salvation?