If Man Has No Role In His Own Salvation......

[kennethcadwell]

Did God not command circumcision, Taking communion, Obeying his commands. Not forsaking the assembling together, feed the poor. Be a light to the world.

God commanded many things, But if we ad them as a prerequisite for salvation, in any form, it is legalism.

Wrong, for we still are circumcised but the difference is the circumcision in the new covenant is of the heart. Shedding of the old sinful nature, and living a loving faithful nature. And even Jesus says those who do these things have eternal life.
This is not legalism, it is what the Lord Jesus said.

John 6:53 - Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.




The pharisees quoted alot of scripture also. Just because you quote scripture does not mean your right, anyone can do this, don't you agree?

The Pharisees were wrong because they corrupted the scriptures by using them for personal gain, and they added to the things people need to do. Just like the Catholic church does.


I asked you if God needed proof our faith is real. why did you not answer that? that was your excuse for saying it is required was it not?

I did not answer because God does not need it because He knows our heart, but the reason He our Lord said they need to be evident is for the presence of others. We are to have that outward expression to show God's love through us, so that others will be drawn and come to love Him to.



So now your judge jury and executioner? Who gives you the right to judge anyone? your using broad examples here. I can be a baby christian and have an uncaring heart for muslims because they killed my parents on 9/11. Does that mean I am not saved? or does it mean I still have to learn the love of God and grow in him.

I am not judging anybody which is why my examples were board, and do not speak of anybody directly. Hatred, anger, uncaring hearts are not the way of a believer. If you have this in your heart then they are areas you need to still work on, and start to forgive those that have wronged you. Because once again the Lord says if you don't forgive others their sins, He will not forgive you of yours. Yours sins have to be forgiven to have eternal life.




He did? where do we see him come to the lord i repentance? Where did he confess to jesus he was wrong? Are you not assuming there?

No I am not assuming. If Peter never repented then he would not have continued to lead the church and carry out the Lords will, and through this he even taught exactly what the Lord told him. To obey all that was command, this included baptism.


The key word here is EVERY. There is no good whatsoever in these people. Yes they deny God and the gospel. they do not even know God. and never have.




again the key word is every, they will not do good works. unless they repent and recieve jesus as their savior. they are dead to Christ, and because of it, can not do good works. every thought of their is evil. just like ours was before we came to Christ.

This is false to say that unless somebody knows God they can not do any good works.
I know plenty of people that do good deeds ( works ) for others, being charitable, feeding the poor and hungry, clothing them and giving them a roof over their heads for the night, and so on. They however still refuse to believe in God or the Lord Jesus.
They do plenty of good deeds, but are not saved do to they don't believe in the Lord our God.

 

[Kerry]

This is false to say that unless somebody knows God they can not do any good works.
I know plenty of people that do good deeds ( works ) for others, being charitable, feeding the poor and hungry, clothing them and giving them a roof over their heads for the night, and so on. They however still refuse to believe in God or the Lord Jesus.
They do plenty of good deeds, but are not saved do to they don't believe in the Lord our God.

But don't drug induced and alcoholic rappers do the same along with adulterous Hollywood celebrities?

 

[kennethcadwell]

But don't drug induced and alcoholic rappers do the same along with adulterous Hollywood celebrities?

Everybody can do good deeds, but depending on where ones heart lies and meaning behind those deeds is what matters.
Some of the ones you mention do it for tax breaks, meaning they get more money back at tax time for giving to charities. They care more about what they get out of it, then really about helping others.

 

[Kerry]

Everybody can do good deeds, but depending on where ones heart lies and meaning behind those deeds is what matters.
Some of the ones you mention do it for tax breaks, meaning they get more money back at tax time for giving to charities. They care more about what they get out of it, then really about helping others.

So what makes the difference? Explain.

 

[SoulWeaver]

I think gratefull is trying to say that they dont do the good deeds that please God... they do the filthy rags kinda stuff.
edit: Maybe I am mistaken.

 

[kennethcadwell]

So what makes the difference? Explain.

The difference is like I have said before is are you doing the good deeds for self praise, expecting something in return, or doing it to gain something.
Or are you doing the good deeds out of love for the Lord our God.

The good deeds need to be done out of love for God, not for self.

 

[Kerry]

The difference is like I have said before is are you doing the good deeds for self praise, expecting something in return, or doing it to gain something.
Or are you doing the good deeds out of love for the Lord our God.

The good deeds need to be done out of love for God, not for self.

Good answer, but if the drunken, adulterous Hollywood celebs do the same, then is it our deeds or works that makes us holy and worthy or is it our faith in the work of the cross and not the works of our own?

 

[kennethcadwell]

Good answer, but if the drunken, adulterous Hollywood celebs do the same, then is it our deeds or works that makes us holy and worthy or is it our faith in the work of the cross and not the works of our own?

It is our faith that makes us holy and through that faith we are obedient to the Lord.
Jesus states repentance, baptism, and confession along with salvation and eternal life. No repentance then you perish, no confession then you are denied heaven, no baptism not saved ( Mark 16 ). Then when you look at Matthew 25 it gives multiple parables and shows a common theme in them, that only the faithful obedient servants get eternal life.

If the drunkard or adulterer continues in those willful sins without repenting of them, but still do good deeds for God as you say. They still are not saved for they are continuing to walk in a willful sin, which the bible clearly says you can not do to be saved.

 

[Kerry]

It is our faith that makes us holy and through that faith we are obedient to the Lord.
Jesus states repentance, baptism, and confession along with salvation and eternal life. No repentance then you perish, no confession then you are denied heaven, no baptism not saved ( Mark 16 ). Then when you look at Matthew 25 it gives multiple parables and shows a common theme in them, that only the faithful obedient servants get eternal life.

If the drunkard or adulterer continues in those willful sins without repenting of them, but still do good deeds for God as you say. They still are not saved for they are continuing to walk in a willful sin, which the bible clearly says you can not do to be saved.

I stopped there whom did Jesus baptize?

You keep saying our and I, it's not about us and I, it's about Him and our faith in Him.

 

[Kerry]

Was David saved, please understand that I am bringing this to a point and I do not advocate as most grace preachers do.

 

[kennethcadwell]

I stopped there whom did Jesus baptize?

You keep saying our and I, it's not about us and I, it's about Him and our faith in Him.

Jesus baptizes all those that believe in Him with the Holy Spirit.
John and his disciples, and Jesus disciples did go around baptizing using water. And the usage of water in baptism was still to be used in the commands given by Jesus in Matthew 28 and Mark 16. Baptizo- Greek word meaning immersion in water.

I say I, our , or we because we have to repent of our sins. Jesus does not do the repentance for us, He does not also force or control us to live in love, to be baptized, confess Him before others, and to help others in need. We make that conscious choice to do these things do to our love for the Lord. We are not puppets, and the Holy Spirit guides us, not control us. One still has the free will to chose to follow that guidance or not.

Through true faith in the Lord you will want to do all the things He commanded.

 

[Kerry]

Look, Paul declares that the works that I do are not mine own and that it is no longer I who lives but Christ through me. In other words he had yielded over his will to the will of Christ. They dude tried to live for God by the law which is works and he wrote in Romans 7 that which I will to do I do not and that which I will not to do that I do, who shall deliver me from this body of flesh? I thank God for the Lord Jesus Christ that sets me free.

It is by faith in the work of the cross that gives the Holy Spirit the legal right to work in us and through us producing fruit and not that of our own. If we for one instance look at our works as righteousness we fail, there is no work we can or else the law would have been sufficient and not require the Cross.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Yes but Paul still sinned. The point he was making is that because of the Lord Jesus working in Him to perfect his faith, is that sin no longer reigned in his body. Meaning it no longer controlled him and his actions, he learned how to stop before it got full grown again do to the guidance of the Holy Spirit. The other point he was making was that Paul was giving all credit to the things he does to the Lord as we all should do. If it wasn't for the life the Lord our God gave us and the abilities He gave us, we would not be able to do the things we do.

If you don't repent of your sins, then the Holy Spirit is not yet upon you to guide you for you are still serving that sin.
You can not serve both sin and the Lord.

I have never said we do it on our own, I have always said through the help and guidance of the Holy Spirit we do what we do. It takes our obedience to follow that guidance.

 

[Kerry]

What did He learn that stopped it?

 

[kennethcadwell]

What did He learn that stopped it?

He was taught the moral values of God that were evident in the Ten commandments, to know right from wrong.
But even with that we still have the temptations inside of us to do things we shouldn't, that is when the Holy Spirit comes into play and tells us not to do it or to stop before things get worse.
This is why Paul said he still has a battle that wars inside of him. The temptations and lusts that arise in our fleshly bodies, and our new spiritual minds guided by the Holy Spirit not to give in to them.

 

[Kerry]

He was taught the moral values of God that were evident in the Ten commandments, to know right from wrong.
But even with that we still have the temptations inside of us to do things we shouldn't, that is when the Holy Spirit comes into play and tells us not to do it or to stop before things get worse.
This is why Paul said he still has a battle that wars inside of him. The temptations and lusts that arise in our fleshly bodies, and our new spiritual minds guided by the Holy Spirit not to give in to them.

He learned the meaning of the cross and that we cannot conquer sin of our own intelligence nor will power, the only way to unplug the sin nature that we are born with is by faith in the the cross and nothing else and that our good works are produced by the Holy Spirit through the cross and we place our faith in anything else other than the cross we fail. Because the Holy Spirit will not help us if our faith is misguided into works of the flesh. Our faith must be in the work of the Cross and nothing else.

 

[newbirth]

So then you agree, water baptism is not required for salvation. If it is, we are teaching legalism.



where we have an issue is you say required. when you say something is required. you are making a law out of it. If baptism is required, in order to receive something, then it is earningn something, it is not done out of love, it is done out of fear. ie....I better do this, because if I do not. I will not get to heaven.

A non believer who has no faith in God at all will not get baptized or do any good deed. It is not to prove they do not have faith, it is BECAUSE they have no faith.

the problem is we have people getting baptised and doing all these good works. who look like they have faith in God, but they are decievers or deceived themselves. because they are doing it to gain (or not lose which in reality is the same difference) salvation.


You will also have the power of God to understand why he said to do it, and enable us to do it.



You looking at this from mans perspective, not Gods.

God does not need us to do good works to prove our faith, he knows our heart before we do one good deed in his name.

Again, when you add required to it, You add works.


Peter denied Christ three times.

he never lost salvation

Jesus never denied him before men

Jesus never chastened him for his sin

Denying god is denying the gospel. Peter was scared to death, and in his fear, he did something to preserve self. and in doing so sinned against God. Jesus paid for that sin, That why Jesus mever condemned him.

Acts 10:48

And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
seems like a requirement to me

[SUP]16 [/SUP]He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
seems like a requirement to me

 

[newbirth]

Did God not command circumcision, Taking communion, Obeying his commands. Not forsaking the assembling together, feed the poor. Be a light to the world.

God commanded many things, But if we ad them as a prerequisite for salvation, in any form, it is legalism.


The pharisees quoted alot of scripture also. Just because you quote scripture does not mean your right, anyone can do this, don't you agree?

I asked you if God needed proof our faith is real. why did you not answer that? that was your excuse for saying it is required was it not?


So now your judge jury and executioner? Who gives you the right to judge anyone? your using broad examples here. I can be a baby christian and have an uncaring heart for muslims because they killed my parents on 9/11. Does that mean I am not saved? or does it mean I still have to learn the love of God and grow in him.




He did? where do we see him come to the lord i repentance? Where did he confess to jesus he was wrong? Are you not assuming there?



The key word here is EVERY. There is no good whatsoever in these people. Yes they deny God and the gospel. they do not even know God. and never have.




again the key word is every, they will not do good works. unless they repent and recieve jesus as their savior. they are dead to Christ, and because of it, can not do good works. every thought of their is evil. just like ours was before we came to Christ.

this is before the law...
[SUP]
8 [/SUP]And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

[SUP]9 [/SUP]And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.

[SUP]11 [/SUP]And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

 

[mailmandan]

James says faith alone is dead for it has no works.

Context. James says what good is it if a man says/claims he has faith but he has no works (to back up that claim, where is the proof?). Can that faith save him? The answer is no because this is not genuine faith but an empty profession of faith, a dead faith.

Works prove the faith.....prove your faith without your works and James proves his faith by his works.

Yes, we prove or SHOW our faith by our works, NOT establish. Big difference! In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham offering Isaac his son on the altar did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to earn his salvation, but it proved or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the sense in which Abraham was justified by works, "shown to be righteous." Also see Romans 4:2-3.

Faith therefore must have works to be a living viable faith..

Faith must be rooted and established in Christ to be a living viable faith (Ephesians 2:5-8). Works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of a living viable faith, but not the essence of faith and not the means of our salvation, like you so desperately want to believe.

..cannot have one without the other thereby the bible ties faith to works so closely that faith is a work.

Upon initial conversion of placing faith in Christ for salvation, how many believers have already instantly given a brother or sister the things which are needed for the body? (James 2:15-16). Does it take a little bit of time to accomplish this work, or is it accomplished instantaneously upon conversion? Conversion, according to you is at baptism, so is faith dead after baptism before one gives a brother or sister the things which are needed for the body? Does giving a brother or sister the things which are needed for the body cause our faith to become alive or does it SHOW that our faith is alive. (James 2:18)

Lev 17:11 "For the life of the flesh is in the blood" Remove the blood and kill the life..remove the works kill the faith.

If there are no works then there was never any genuine faith. Works are not the source of life in faith; rather the life in faith is the source of the works. We are made alive together with Christ by grace through faith, not works. Christ is our source of life. Removing fruit from a tree does not kill the tree. The fruit produced by the tree is not the source of life for the tree. The source of life flows through the root and produces the fruit. Faith is the root and works are the fruit of salvation.

One obeys from a lost condition. One is saved after he obeys, not before.

One obeys the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16; 10:16) from a lost condition. One is saved after he obeys the gospel (Romans 10:16) by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16) and not before. No further acts of obedience/works are required for one to become saved.

Yes they are for they are trying to find a way to get one saved without doing any obedient works. For if one must do obedient works BEFORE he is saved then they lose their faith only argument.

Obedient works are what we are saved FOR and not by (Ephesians 2:8-10). We are not saved by works, as you self righteously want to believe. Saving faith produces obedience works, so claiming to have faith yet never producing any obedient works demonstrates a dead faith (James 2:14), which is what James means by faith only/an empty profession of faith, not genuine faith that is alive in Christ and shows that it is genuine by works.

SInce one is either doing unrighteousness or righteousness (no inbetween) then they are trying to get the one that is doing unrighteousness saved in his unrighteousness then after he is saved he can then do righteousness.

One must become righteous first/child of God (Romans 4:5; 1 John 3:10) before he can practice righteousness. An unrighteous person does not produce works of righteousness. A bad tree cannot bear/produce good fruit. Every good tree bears good fruit. You erroneously teach that bad trees bear/produce good fruit in order to become good trees. You have it backwards.

 

[mailmandan]

Eze 13:33 "When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it."

If one trust his own righteousness he cannot be saved and that is exactly why Paul said the Jews were lost in Rom 3:10 for they went about to establish their own righteousness. Paul goes on to explain those Jew could be saved if they would submit to GOD's rIghteousness. Big difference between one doing his OWN righteousness and doing GOD'S righteousness.

That is what I explained to you in my last post. “If he trusts in his OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS.” This is the heart of the matter here. This is describing a righteousness which is by the law rather than that which is by faith. Yes, big difference between one doing his OWN righteousness and submitting to God's righteousness. 3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who BELIEVES. NO WATER AND WORKS SALVATION HERE. BELIEVES.

Eze 18:2127 "But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive."

The fruit of repentance is turning away from wickedness and doing what is lawful and right. You have an unrighteous lost man doing which is lawful and right, then being saved by works. Why do you keep going back to the OT? You say a man is saved the moment that he is water baptized (where do we find that in the OT?), yet here you are arguing that a man is not saved until AFTER he keeps all of God's statutes and does what is right. Should we "add" keeps all of God's statutes and does what is right to your 4 step plan of salvation? Who keeps His commandments in the NT? Saved believers or lost unbelievers? By the way, the word "keep" does not imply sinless perfect obedience to all of God's commandments. The Greek word "tereo" Strongs #5083 and means to keep, to guard, to watch over, preserve.

If he does that which is lawful and right (do GOD'S righteousness/statutes) he shall save his soul.

How long must a man do this before he is counted as righteous? Which of God's statutes have you kept from the OT that you expect to be saved by and for how long did you keep them before you were saved? Is that what we read in Romans 4:2-6?

As Paul says the Jews could be saved if they would submit to GOD"S commandments.

Paul said in Romans 10:3 - For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, (salvation by works) have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who BELIEVES. See how you changed BELIEVES into salvation by works? Keeping God's commandments is the fruit of faith and salvation, not the root of it.

There are some here that refuse to understand that there is a HUGE DIFFERENCE between one doing his OWN righteousness and doing GOD'S righteousness.

Yes, YOU! What did Paul say in Romans 10:3-4? Quit trying to "add" to what Paul said.

Eze 18:27 "Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive."

At what point is this wicked man saved? After several years of doing which is lawful and right, he is finally saved by works? Is that what we read in Romans 4:2-6? And doing what is lawful and right is the fruit of a righteous man, as we read in Romans 2:6-10. Ezekiel is not teaching salvation by works and neither is Paul.

You post "How do wicked people practice righteousness? Wicked people FIRST repent and believe on Him who justifies the ungodly, then their faith is accounted for righteousness." - AMEN! Romans 4:5. You have to either ignore or twist this verse in order to make it fit your theology.

The wicked must first TURN/Repent of their wickedness. But that is not enough for he must then "do that which is lawful and good".

Doing what is lawful and good is the fruit of turning/repenting of wickedness, but wicked people do not do what is lawful and good. At some point an unrighteous person becomes righteous and then does what is lawful and good. According to your 4 step plan of salvation, one is saved at the point of becoming water baptized. Are you now saying, that is not enough for you must then "do that which is lawful and good" BEFORE you become saved?

As Eze 18:27 says the wicked must turn from his wickedness AND AND AND do that which is lawful and right THEN he shall save his soul alive.

I'm not hearing Ezekiel say a man does what is lawful and good in a wicked condition and then is saved by works. Where is AND AND AND do that which is lawful and right in your 4 step plan of salvation? You have a man saved at baptism in the NT but not until after he does what is lawful and right in the OT. So which is it?

Just as Paul has it in Rom 6:16,17 doing righteousness/obey from the heart THEN freed from sin/justified.

What did they obey from the heart? With the heart one believes unto righteousness.. (Romans 10:10). Believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness (Romans 4:5). We obey the gospel by choosing to BELIEVE the gospel (Romans 10:16; 1:16). We then become slaves of obedience unto righteousness. You are trying to "shoe horn" a list of works "into" believes, but the shoe does not fit. Works salvation is no salvation at all.

Wicked people will never repent of sins and do righteousness unless that first believe.

Believe what? In the existence of Christ? The demons believe that Christ exists but are not saved. Wicked people do not practice righteousness unless they first repent and believe the gospel. Demons believe in their head (BUT NOT IN THEIR HEART).

A wicked person remains lost as long as he does wickedness. He must first do righteousness before he can be righteous.

A wicked person does wickedness because he is wicked and remains lost as long as he refuses to believe on Him who justifies the ungodly. He must first believe on Him and have faith accounted for righteousness before he can be righteous. Practicing righteousness follows being righteous. Wicked people do not practice righteousness (1 John 3:10).