144,000

[Jillyanne]

I do believe the church is taken when the Holy Spirit is taken as well.
The 144,000 though I do not believe that is the case, because that is what the two witnesses were sent to do.
The only ones who are on earth that have a mark are those who follow and are of the man of sin.

7 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: 3 “Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.” 4 Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.

 

[kennethcadwell]

How convenient of you not to highlight the first part of verse 7, Paul was talking to Christians in his day, the man of lawlessness was someone in his day and was already at work!

I did not have to because lawlessness has been in the world since Adams sin.
The point that Paul was saying was that the main end time character antichrist/man of sin or man of lawlessness will not be revealed tell the restrainer Holy Spirit is removed.
The Holy Spirit has never been removed, and is still ever present today, so the man of sin has not yet come for he is still being restrained.

 

[Bookends]

The problem is of those who take and say a prophecy has been fulfilled by given events from history that do not fit if you actually look into it.
Plus the other problem is saying things have taken place, but not even mention other events from the OT that has not been fulfilled as if they don't exist. Putting the cart before the horse.

Instance:

Has Damascus been destroyed to where it is no longer a city in Syria ? NO

Has the Holy Spirit been taken away ? No

Has at any time in history since Israel became a nation in 1948, has Israel's bordering countries been defeated at one time in one war ? NO

you sure love jumping all over the place...one could say Damascus was destroyed about 2700 years ago.

 

[Bookends]

I did not have to because lawlessness has been in the world since Adams sin.
The point that Paul was saying was that the main end time character antichrist/man of sin or man of lawlessness will not be revealed tell the restrainer Holy Spirit is removed.
The Holy Spirit has never been removed, and is still ever present today, so the man of sin has not yet come for he is still being restrained.

that is an interpretation of what you think it means, doesn't necessarily mean it is the right one. Paul never uses the name anti-christ. This man of sin could have been someone in his day, and the restrainer could have the Romans as far as we know...there is really nothing here to build a doctrine on.

 

[kennethcadwell]

7 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: 3 “Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.” 4 Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.

Yes I know this, but it does say also in that chapter the great multitude from the other nations of the world to.
These are all servants of the Lord, the 144,000 were just specified because of being of the Jewish tribes and not defiled.
The scriptures show the purpose of the two witnesses were sent to prophesy for 1,260 days the coming Lord and Him establishing His reign on earth. If the 144,000 were doing this, then the two witnesses would not have to be sent.

 

[popeye]

Originally Posted by kennethcadwell

I do believe the church is taken when the Holy Spirit is taken as well.
The 144,000 though I do not believe that is the case, because that is what the two witnesses were sent to do.
The only ones who are on earth that have a mark are those who follow and are of the man of sin.

yep
according to the word

 

[Bookends]

The issue is that you like others look at it from only a Christian point of view.

From the Jewish point of view, 46% of the Jews want a temple rebuilt and have stated they will return to the old ways of animal sacrifice when it is done. They do not believe Jesus to be the Messiah, and still hold to the old ways, they just don't do the sacrifices now because there is no temple, no holy of holies, and therefore no place to put the ark of the covenant when it is revealed back to the public.

Then from a bible prophecy standpoint it will happen to, for the antichrist will make a peace treaty and then break it putting an end to the animal sacrifices; stand in the holy of holies and claim to be God.

This quote has Tim LaHaye written all over it.

 

[kennethcadwell]

that is an interpretation of what you think it means, doesn't necessarily mean it is the right one. Paul never uses the name anti-christ. This man of sin could have been someone in his day, and the restrainer could have the Romans as far as we know...there is really nothing here to build a doctrine on.

Even though Paul did not use that exact term of antichrist. He did use man of sin, man of perdition, and man of lawlessness, and in each case was referring to the end times.
There are plenty of scriptures that speak of a final main antichrist figure from the OT all the way through the NT, so to say there is nothing to base this on. There is plenty of biblical scriptural evidence for a end time antichrist that goes into the temple and claims to be God.
This did not happen in 70 AD.

 

[Straightshot]

Your are arguing with a 70 AD preterist Kenneth

Convincing the same of what you know is most likely impossible

The teachers of preteristic theology held by many sectors of the professing church today do a good job of brain washing their followers

The bottom line objective of the same is always to remove Israel's future position from the scriptures

This they must do because the truth destroys their own traditional "church" doctrines and replacement theology ruse

Some have been around for centuries and will simply not give up the ghost .... if they did the leaders would be tarred and feathered and their organizations would crash

 

[kennethcadwell]

This quote has Tim LaHaye written all over it.

Sorry, I don't know who Tim LaHaye is but I do know from my point of view a Christian and scriptures a temple will be rebuilt. This does not mean I have to go back to old traditions, because I know we the body are the temple.
But I do know from a Jewish perspective who do not accept Jesus as the Messiah do want this to be done, and are pushing for it. That and two scripture passages showing a temple present on the mount, Ezekiel 40 and Revelation 11.

 

[Straightshot]

Hint:

Ezekiel 40 is the Lord's millennial temple that will be built after the tribulation period .... this one is not a tribulation temple

And note carefully that Revelation 11:2 states to not measure the mount court "without" a temple of the Lord's

.... none will be there during the tribulation period

The contrast given is in 11:1 ..... the Lord's temple in heaven worth measuring

Those that worship therein are the pre-tribulation church of today, not "Jews" in a rebuilt temple on the mount on the earth

Jerusalem and the temple mount will be overrun and occupied by Muslim Gentiles ... and these would never allow a"Jewish" temple on the mount

It is true that certain orthodox of Israel today want a temple because they think that the "Messiah" will not come if no temple .... these do not know that Jesus is their Messiah

The severity of the tribulation .... the time of "Jacobs trouble" for them, will not be conducive for building a temple on the mount .... this will not happen

Those that turn to the Lord during the tribulation will get their temple just after .... and built by the Lord

 

[Bookends]

Your are arguing with a 70 AD preterist Kenneth

Convincing the same of what you know is most likely impossible

The teachers of preteristic theology held by many sectors of the professing church today do a good job of brain washing their followers

The bottom line objective of the same is always to remove Israel's future position from the scriptures

This they must do because the truth destroys their own traditional "church" doctrines and replacement theology ruse

Some have been around for centuries and will simply not give up the ghost .... if they did the leaders would be tarred and feathered and their organizations would crash

Natural Israel has no position. The Jews who didn't have faith were never saved (pre or post Christ's death), true Israel are those OT and NT saints who place their faith in God and Christ displayed by their loyalty and obedience. Paul makes this abundantly clear! John records the words of Jesus saying this too in Rev. 3:9

Romans 2:29
New American Standard Bible
But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God

Philippians 3:3
For it is we who are the circumcision, we who serve God by his Spirit, who boast in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh--

Deuteronomy 30:6
The LORD your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live.

Jeremiah 4:4
Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, circumcise your hearts, you people of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem, or my wrath will flare up and burn like fire because of the evil you have done-- burn with no one to quench it.

I'll say it again, God does not pour out HIS WRATH on HIS PEOPLE!

Galatians 3:7
7 Therefore know that only those of faith are the sons of Abraham. 8 and the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by FAITH, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, "In you all the nations shall be blessed." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.

26. For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27. For as many of ou as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28. There is neither JEW nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29. And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise...

God tore down the walls of nationality, your eschatology system builds them back up! A true Jew is one inwardly who is justified by faith, not who their ancestors are or were...I'm a true Jew! In Romans 9, Paul basically says the same thing, "For they are not all Israel who are of Israel"...then who IS? Paul goes in to explain, "In Isaac your seed shall be called." That is, those who are the of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed."....

The natural Jew were never God's people

 

[Bookends]

Sorry, I don't know who Tim LaHaye is but I do know from my point of view a Christian and scriptures a temple will be rebuilt. This does not mean I have to go back to old traditions, because I know we the body are the temple.
But I do know from a Jewish perspective who do not accept Jesus as the Messiah do want this to be done, and are pushing for it. That and two scripture passages showing a temple present on the mount, Ezekiel 40 and Revelation 11.

You never heard of the series "Left Behind?"

 

[SarahM777]

It says what it says, anyone with a basic grasp of English should be able to understand context, but people have agendas and theology, which they then have to shoehorn things such as the 144,000 into, to make this fit it then has to be changed from a physical actual number and real people to metaphorical or spiritual or whatever.

So when Luke wrote and says that ALL WORLD WAS TO BE TAXED this does that mean the Aztecs,Incas,
Sioux,Inuits,Japanese, Chinese,Abrorigines,Zulus and Vikings were all taxed by Rome?

Luke 2

2 And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be taxed.
[SUP]2 [/SUP](And this taxing was first made when Cyrenius was governor of Syria.)
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And all went to be taxed, every one into his own city.

And if Luke's understanding was the known world to them and John being of the same time frame wrote this

Revelation 13

[SUP]8 [/SUP]And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Remember Revelation is written TO those of John's day,their UNDERSTANDING of the entire earth was their KNOWN world. So can you please explain from SCRIPTURE that John's understanding of the whole world is DIFFERENT from Luke's understanding of the whole world,with the fact that both wrote to people of their day and their understanding of the whole world was their KNOWN world?

 

[Jillyanne]

So when Luke wrote and says that ALL WORLD WAS TO BE TAXED this does that mean the Aztecs,Incas,
Sioux,Inuits,Japanese, Chinese,Abrorigines,Zulus and Vikings were all taxed by Rome?

Luke 2

2 And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be taxed.
[SUP]2 [/SUP](And this taxing was first made when Cyrenius was governor of Syria.)
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And all went to be taxed, every one into his own city.

And if Luke's understanding was the known world to them and John being of the same time frame wrote this

Revelation 13

[SUP]8 [/SUP]And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Remember Revelation is written TO those of John's day,their UNDERSTANDING of the entire earth was their KNOWN world. So can you please explain from SCRIPTURE that John's understanding of the whole world is DIFFERENT from Luke's understanding of the whole world,with the fact that both wrote to people of their day and their understanding of the whole world was their KNOWN world?

I believe Gods word surpasses time. The word was written to those of that day, present day and future. Just as Ezekiel's visions probably made little or no sense to Him, yet God divinely inspired His word to be written for ALL generations. I think we have to be careful not to interpret the scriptures through one dimensional thinking, The authors themselves were probably perplexed by much of their visions God told them to write down, not everything made sense from their world view at that time and likewise.

 

[SarahM777]

I believe Gods word surpasses time. The word was written to those of that day, present day and future. Just as Ezekiel's visions probably made little or no sense to Him, yet God divinely inspired His word to be written for ALL generations. I think we have to be careful not to interpret the scriptures through one dimensional thinking, The authors themselves were probably perplexed by much of their visions God told them to write down, not everything made sense from their world view at that time and likewise.

I never said otherwise,what I did say is can you from scripture show that John's understanding of the whole earth is DIFFERENT from Luke's understanding,knowing that BOTH wrote DIRECTLY to the people of their day?

 

[Straightshot]

My comments


The Lord's holy spirit is eternal and ever present .... never leaves any of His creation

.... never separated but the same .... never removed

The Lord and His holy spirit are inseparable and omnipresent .... Genesis to Revelation .... before and beyond

There are those that have been taught to use the idea of His holy spirit sitting on the sidelines by vacating and transported away by His "harpazo" action to immortalize His true ecclesia just before He brings His hour [time] of trial and judgment upon an unbelieving world

This He will do .... no doubt [Revelation 3:10]

There are many other scriptures taken together for supporting this truth

..... but not this one [2 Thessalonians 2:6-7]

It simply means that the present measure of restraint against Satan will be reduced to allow for his planned mimic

The Lord's holy spirit must remain because He will .... the Lord never goes away to some far far corner of His universe .... He is always present, all of the time

And those who will become believers during the coming tribulation will be holy spirit filled just and any human .... there is no other way for a man to be regenerated .... all must be born again .... even those of the tribulation

And so will it be with the 144000

 

[Jillyanne]

My comments


The Lord's holy spirit is eternal and ever present .... never leaves any of His creation

.... never separated but the same .... never removed

The Lord and His holy spirit are inseparable and omnipresent .... Genesis to Revelation .... before and beyond

There are those that have been taught to use the idea of His holy spirit sitting on the sidelines by vacating and transported away by His "harpazo" action to immortalize His true ecclesia just before He brings His hour [time] of trial and judgment upon an unbelieving world

This He will do .... no doubt [Revelation 3:10]

There are many other scriptures taken together for supporting this truth

..... but not this one [2 Thessalonians 2:6-7]

It simply means that the present measure of restraint against Satan will be reduced to allow for his planned mimic

The Lord's holy spirit must remain because He will .... the Lord never goes away to some far far corner of His universe .... He is always present, all of the time

And those who will become believers during the coming tribulation will be holy spirit filled just and any human .... there is no other way for a man to be regenerated .... all must be born again .... even those of the tribulation

And so will it be with the 144000

I think we agree that it does not matter eternally if we agree or disagree on some matters, but you have opened my mind to rethink things that I cannot be sure of, none of us can, but my train of thought makes more sense to me. I have always believed the church (Holy Spirit resides in us) is the restrainer, and once we are removed, the tribulation saints will become active in their own salvation because they won't just choose Christ once and for all, they will have to continue to choose Him in the most horrific of ultimatums.

 

[Jillyanne]

I never said otherwise,what I did say is can you from scripture show that John's understanding of the whole earth is DIFFERENT from Luke's understanding,knowing that BOTH wrote DIRECTLY to the people of their day?

I am sorry, not quite sure of the point you are trying to make

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I think we agree that it does not matter eternally if we agree or disagree on some matters, but you have opened my mind to rethink things that I cannot be sure of, none of us can, but my train of thought makes more sense to me. I have always believed the church (Holy Spirit resides in us) is the restrainer, and once we are removed, the tribulation saints will become active in their own salvation because they won't just choose Christ once and for all, they will have to continue to choose Him in the most horrific of ultimatums.

This is why I hate some forms of dispensationalism.

It states the gospel of grace is removed, and the law is re-instituted as a means to be saved.

The law could never save anyone. No one could "endure to the end" for eternal life because Gods righteous standard is so high there is no a person on earth could could reach it. No one has ever been able to reach that statndard but Christ, He fulfilled that Righteous standard we could (and those people in the tribulation) can not live by, Thats why he needed to come, His death will be just as salvic to them as it is to us today. they to will recieve the HS (who was given only after Christs death) just as we have been given, As far as the gospel goes. and Christianity goes. it will be the same for them as it is for us.

The only thing which will change is the severe persecution they suffer. which will be worldwide in scope. unlike today in which only parts of the world are we severely persecuted.