144,000

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eternally-gratefull

Guest
I disagree, tribulation and God's wrath are 2 separate things, but sure those in His wrath will have tribulation (+) leading to death.
I disagree, God has used people and nations to inflict his wrath in the past (see Syria/babylon and Rome and what God used them to do to Israel)

One can not read the judgments of revelation and say they are not Gods wrath. We can not spiritualise them away either. Something so severe even the king of the earth hiding their faces from the wrath of God, and declaring who can withstand it, understand what it is.

 
Nov 3, 2014
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"AND true Christians will TOLERATE ONE ANOTHER, as long as it's not against the essential Christian doctrines."


Depends upon defining "essential doctrines"

Do you know that there are people who will tolerate what would appear to be essential doctrines and then turn around and teach heresy?

There are .... and the Lord's true ecclesia will uncover their game and will not tolerate them .... and in the process they will expose them for others to see

And they will correct them and attempt to lead them to the truth .... for a while .... but not for long

This is the biblical way of the true Christian witness
 
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Bookends

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Aug 28, 2012
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why did God only make this promise to this nation only? Why did God forget the edomites, the hittites, and all the other nations who were defeated, and lost in the history of their captors to fade away and be nothing.

Your right, the gospel is for them. But that is not the topic of lev 26. it is what they were required to live in peace in the land God gave their fathers.

and you again missed part of that passage.


42 then I will remember My covenant with Jacob, and My covenant with Isaac and My covenant with Abraham I will remember;
I will remember the land.

Why is God remembering the land if salvation is what the context is as your claiming?

This is national. Not induvidual. People during the babylonian captivity recieved God. yet they were punished also (see daniel and his friends, and many others)

It has nothing to do with the salvation of an induvidual. It has to do with Gods promise to a nation, or more literally. the fathers of that nation
The natural is the anti-type for the spiritual.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
"AND true Christians will TOLERATE ONE ANOTHER, as long as it's not against the essential Christian doctrines."


Depends upon defining "essential doctrines"

Do you know that there are people who will tolerate what would appear to be essential doctrines and then turn around and teach heresy?

There are .... and the Lord's true ecclesia will uncover their game and will not tolerate them .... and in the process they will expose them for others to see

well since there is ONLY ONE doctrine which concerns our eternal life. This is the only one who matters.

If we argue about non essential doctrines (like end time prophesies) God may chasten us as kids and tell us to stop arguing, But he is not going to condemns us.

Now if you have the wrong gospel. Then your in trouble because your not even a child of God
 
Nov 3, 2014
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"The natural is the anti-type for the spiritual."


What ever does this mean?

Do you have scripture that defines and teaches "anti-type?
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
The natural is the anti-type for the spiritual.
God did not say that when he made the promise

And he said in the OT, NT and even had paul declare. He will never forget that promise

That is a natural antitype of the spiritual also.

God will never leave us nor forsake us nor forget his promise to us, even when we go contrary to him, and walk away as prodigal children.

Again, To say Gods promise is no longer valid is a dangerous thing to teach, for it infers if we walk away and Go contrary to God in this lifetime, he may forsake his promise to us also.

That my friend is a scary thing, a God that does not keep his promises and covenants is not a God we can trust.


I KNOW you believe God will never leave nor forsake his promise to us I pray you see the type of God and his promise to a certain people. that he will never leave nor forsake that promise either.
 

Bookends

Senior Member
Aug 28, 2012
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"AND true Christians will TOLERATE ONE ANOTHER, as long as it's not against the essential Christian doctrines."


Depends upon defining "essential doctrines"

Do you know that there are people who will tolerate what would appear to be essential doctrines and then turn around and teach heresy?

There are .... and the Lord's true ecclesia will uncover their game and will not tolerate them .... and in the process they will expose them for others to see

And they will correct them and attempt to lead them to the truth .... for a while .... but not for long

This is the biblical way of the true Christian witness
You have offended me brother! Therefore I am not responding to you in any way! It is, IMHO, the most loving thing I can do towards you (rather than uttering words that don't edify you and the body of Christ).
 

Zmouth

Senior Member
Nov 21, 2012
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This number is not to be taken as a literal number.
if 144,000 isn't a literal number then what is it?
 

Bookends

Senior Member
Aug 28, 2012
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if 144,000 isn't a literal number then what is it?
Scripture says, "The Lord owns all the cattle on a thousand hills" Is the Lord limited to just the cattle on a 1000 hills? The bible makes use of hyperboles.
 
Nov 3, 2014
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"You have offended me brother! Therefore I am not responding to you in any way! It is, IMHO, the most loving thing I can do towards you (rather than uttering words that don't edify you and the body of Christ)."


Good for you
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Scripture says, "The Lord owns all the cattle on a thousand hills" Is the Lord limited to just the cattle on a 1000 hills?
No.

Nor does the word say the 144000 are the only people saved, or sealed. it just says God choses these 14400 for a special purpose and seals them.
 
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Are the 144,000 actually 144,000 physical Jews because genetically speaking, this seems like an impossibility seeing that there would need to be 12,000 from each tribe, I am just struggling with Spiritual/physical Jews, because there is obvious importance in understanding the distinctions
Here's part of the hundred and forty-four because they had believed and repented from hearing the word of Jonah.

Matthew 12:41 The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now something greater than Jonah is here.

Jonah 4:11 And should I not have concern for the great city of Nineveh, in which there are more than a hundred and twenty thousand people who cannot tell their right hand from their left—and also many animals?”


 
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Bible Teaching Essentials .... no less

Here is why:


2 Timothy
4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.


2 Timothy
3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

3:2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

3:3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,

3:4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;

3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,

3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.


2 Timothy
4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fable


2Peter
1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

1:17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

1:18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.

1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.


2 Peter
2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

2:2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

2:3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

2:7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:

2:8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;)

2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

2:10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.

2:11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.

2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

2:13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;

2:14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:

2:15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;

2:16 But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.

2:17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.

2:18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.

2:19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.


2 Timothy
3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
 
Nov 3, 2014
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"Nor does the word say the 144000 are the only people saved, or sealed. it just says God chooses these 14400 for a special purpose and seals them."


This is truth ..... listen Bookends .... you may learn something .... you must
 
Dec 12, 2013
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No.

Nor does the word say the 144000 are the only people saved, or sealed. it just says God choses these 14400 for a special purpose and seals them.
Makes me think of the JW's and after they reached a 144,000 they had to revise their dogma....kind of like the Mormons and how many times they have had to revise their book of Mormon
 

Bookends

Senior Member
Aug 28, 2012
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Makes me think of the JW's and after they reached a 144,000 they had to revise their dogma....kind of like the Mormons and how many times they have had to revise their book of Mormon
And dispensationalist don't change their dogma? Please, Hal Lindsey in his book "The Late, Great Planet Earth" predicted the coming of Christ/Rapture to occur with a generation (40 yrs) after Israel became a nation. He has a revised addition. Also as I heard, Tim Lahaye has revised his "Left Behind" series.
 

Bookends

Senior Member
Aug 28, 2012
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to spread the gospel to the unsaved all throughout the world.
You didn't provide scripture, not that I disagree, but that's not a special purpose. To spread the Gospel is every Christians purpose, it's a common purpose. It was the purpose of the great multitude also mentioned in Revelation 6 because they are also Christians.
 

Bookends

Senior Member
Aug 28, 2012
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I am not worried about that temple. What matters is the temple the future beast will abominate, causing the desolation.
Well seem to go along with Kenneth who takes a millennial view,

We don't, the problem is you must take the dimensions given for the temple in Ezekiel and look at the dimension for both the first and second temple. Ezekiel's temple dimensions do not match either one of those temples.