Jews

[GuessWho]

He has not taken anything away from them (well in my view. in your view. the land he gave their fathers is no longer theirs)

??????

He is punishing them, and withholding it from them because of their sin, But he has not taken it away forever. If they repent, he promised he will let them have it back.

Oh my! What? You will soon accuse me of saying that holocaust is a punishment from God, when in fact, I told you that the punishment for (national) Israel had already been executed in 70 AD.

Just like if you repent, You father should give you YOU property he gave you.

Why do you think God sent His only Begotten Son? Why? Or, Christ has nothing to do with national Israel?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

??????

Do yuo believe God will give it back to them if they repent or not? Which is it?

Oh my! What? You will soon accuse me of saying that holocaust is a punishment from God, when in fact, I told you that the punishment for (national) Israel had already been executed in 70 AD.

They have been being punished since they were removed by babylon.

They never got their land back, The babylonians had it, then the greeks, then the romans, until they removed them completely in 70 ad. And the reason they are not living in peace in their land today is STILL part of their punishment.

Why do you think God sent His only Begotten Son? Why? Or, Christ has nothing to do with national Israel?

To save me and offer salvation to everyone in the world

That has nothing to do with the GIFT he gave Israel. That had nothing to do with salvation of me or anyone else.

If God will not keep his word to them, he will not keep his word to me, and I have no hope.

 

[GuessWho]

So, is this the promise that God still has towards (national) Israel? A piece of land? Really? Is a piece of land a greater gift than His only Begotten Son?

Did the Jews lack land when Christ came on earth? Is this what Christ came for? To chase the Romans and let the Jews live alone in their land? Well, this is what the Jews expected, yes.

The Jews were no longer in exile when Christ came, but they felt like being in exile because of the Roman occupation. And they expected from the Messiah to free them from that occupation and the Messiah said "you need freedom from sin and death". And they said "we are Abraham's sons". And Christ "you are God's child if you do God's will" and "if you knew God you would know that I am sent by God". And they said "crucify Him and deliver Barnabas, the insurgent".

So, once again, what is the promise that God didn't kept?

 

[4enlightment]

So, what does God have to for (national) Israel that He hasn't yet done?
Why did God sent His only begotten Son? For what?

To retrieved the ones that spill their blood for His name that were under the old covenant (The lost sheep of Israel), but while He was down here, their were others that weren't under the old covenant that heard the Shepherd's voice, because a sheep know the Shepherd and know His voice.

Matthew 15:24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”

John 1:11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.

Matthew 8:10 When Jesus heard this, he was amazed and said to those following him, “Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith.

Matthew 15:28 Then Jesus said to her, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed at that moment.

 

[Straightshot]

"I expect a very concrete answer, not advices to watch the news"


You need both, but you also need to know that what you expect is what I will decide to give you

Much of what you ask for has already been documented on this thread ..... I watch all of this

So ..... why do you refuse?

I am up to knowing what you are doing .... believe this .... I under stand preteristic false teaching

I see you in this dilemma as I watch you, and unless you can convince me that you really want the answers to your questions ..... I will not spend the time with you

Preterists generally only want more stuff to refute .... and the respondent ends up feeding you and wasting time

So if that is what your MO is ..... I will not

There are some who are willing to learn and can be taught

But the preterist .... practically never

The response to my position here that comes back from a typical preterist is .... "see I told you that you cannot answer my questions" .... bla bla bla

... the ball is in your court

 

[GuessWho]

To save me and offer salvation to everyone in the world

That has nothing to do with the GIFT he gave Israel. That had nothing to do with salvation of me or anyone else.

If God will not keep his word to them, he will not keep his word to me, and I have no hope.

So, in your opinion, Christ' coming has nothing to do with the deliverance from exile that God promised to the Jews?
So, the Jews are right? Christ is not the Messiah? After all, Christ offered them freedom and they rejected that freedom. They don't want real freedom, but only freedom from a political power.

 

[GuessWho]

"I expect a very concrete answer, not advices to watch the news"


You need both, but you also need to know that what you expect is what I will decide to give you

Much of what you ask for has already been documented on this thread ..... I watch all of this

So ..... why do you refuse?

I am up to knowing what you are doing .... believe this .... I under stand preteristic false teaching

I see you in this dilemma as I watch you, and unless you can convince me that you really want the answers to your questions ..... I will not spend the time with you

Preterists generally only want more stuff to refute .... and the respondent ends up feeding you and wasting time

So if that is what your MO is ..... I will not

There are some who are willing to learn and can be taught

But the preterist .... practically never

The response to my position here that comes back from a typical preterist is .... "see I told you that you cannot answer my questions" .... bla bla bla

... the ball is in your court

Actually, you din't want to answer because you know that you can't have both: Christ is or isn'r the Messiah. You can't say "He is" and then continue believing that God still "owes" something to the Jews.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So, in your opinion, Christ' coming has nothing to do with the deliverance from exile that God promised to the Jews?

Nope. because if it did, he would have done what he promised, and set up his throne in jerusalem. Ruled the world with a rod of iron, and given his people peace in their land.

But he could not. As Jesus said, he wanted to gather them together, as a hen gathers her children, but they were not willing.

So, the Jews are right? Christ is not the Messiah? After all, Christ offered them freedom and they rejected that freedom. They don't want real freedom, but only freedom from a political power.

I never said that, do not put words in my mouth!

No jew will have political power. Only Christ will.

And those he places in power will be like him. Serving and loving others in a way which does not get them anything in return. the way God wanted it to be to begin with.

 

[4enlightment]

So, in your opinion, Christ' coming has nothing to do with the deliverance from exile that God promised to the Jews?
So, the Jews are right? Christ is not the Messiah? After all, Christ offered them freedom and they rejected that freedom. They don't want real freedom, but only freedom from a political power.

To me this sound like they has came out of exile.

Matthew 27:52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life.

 

[GuessWho]

Nope. because if it did, he would have done what he promised, and set up his throne in jerusalem. Ruled the world with a rod of iron, and given his people peace in their land.

Did you know that this is exactly the reason why the Jews rejected Christ? Did you know that Christ entered into Jerusalem in order to fulfill the prophecy that God will return to Zion? Did you know that His throne was the cross? Did you know that through the cross and the Resurrection and the sending of the Holy Spirit a new down has come? Did you know that the early christians believed that God is really present with them in the Church? Did you know that the Church is built in such way to look like the Kingdom of God which is to come? Did you know that the christians believe that they are pre-tasting this kingdom while they are still on earth?

It looks like you didn't know all these things.

I never said that, do not put words in my mouth!

You just said that when you said that Christ didn't come to deliver the Jews from their enemies and to restore them.

 

[GuessWho]

To me this sound like they has came out of exile.

Matthew 27:52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life.

Yes. And it already happened! Jesus Christ raised from the dead! We believe that this will also happen to us at the Great, final Resurrection.

 

[GuessWho]

Nope. because if it did, he would have done what he promised, and set up his throne in jerusalem. Ruled the world with a rod of iron, and given his people peace in their land.

I am very surprised to read this coming from someone who claims to be a christian.
I have to ask you. If Christ didn't come to deliver the Jews from their enemies, with what authority do you think that we, christians, can claim the Old Testament?
How can you talk to a jew about Christ being the Messiah if you actually agree with the Jew and not with Christ?

 

[GuessWho]

Eternally-grateful, why did Saint John the Baptist and then Christ also, said that the kingdom of God "is here"?

Did they both lied? Was Christ not the real King?

 

[Straightshot]

"Actually, you din't want to answer because you know that you can't have both: Christ is or isn'r the Messiah. You can't say "He is" and then continue believing that God still "owes" something to the Jews."


Actually I called you out ..... and predicted your response to the letter

You have fallen for the ruse of preteristic thinking .... hauled in and buried

I can tell by what you say on this forum .... like an automatic parrot .... I see the same on many forums today .... there are many scoffers in these last days

The pied pipers of this insidious practice have convinced you .... whether your own "church" affiliation and or the stuff that you have been reading from them ..... most likely both

 

[GuessWho]

Is acknowledging Christ as Messiah, preteristic?

 

[GuessWho]

"Actually, you din't want to answer because you know that you can't have both: Christ is or isn'r the Messiah. You can't say "He is" and then continue believing that God still "owes" something to the Jews."


Actually I called you out ..... and predicted your response to the letter

You have fallen for the ruse of preteristic thinking .... hauled in and buried

I can tell by what you say on this forum .... like an automatic parrot .... I see the same on many forums today .... there are many scoffers in these last days

The pied pipers of this insidious practice have convinced you .... whether your own "church" affiliation and or the stuff that you have been reading from them ..... most likely both

Thus far, you only called me parrot, affiliated to some church-cult and other stuff like that.

I am asking a question which any orthodox christian should be able to answer: is Christ the Messiah, yes or no? And if Christ is the promised Messiah than what promise does God still have towards national Israel?

The answer should be a simple (and radical) one. Christ is or isn't the Messiah. If you agree with the Jews, than become a Jew, if you believe Christ than be a christian!

 

[Straightshot]

Typical preteristic parrot talk


I call a spade a spade .... what is ... is

 

[GuessWho]

Typical coward avoidance of calling Jesus of Nazareth who He is.

The Jews covered their ears and yelled when they heard St. Stephen telling the truth. They preferred to stone him and make him shut up.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Did you know that this is exactly the reason why the Jews rejected Christ?

Yes, Because they did not understand Jesus had to come first as suffering servant, before he could come as king messiah,

What good would it do for Christ to set up his kingdom on earth, if non of his subjects would ever get to heaven, He had to take care of sin first.

All we have to do is look at the prophets to see this.

Look at the prophesies concerning king messiah and the suffering servant.

Messianic prophesies - micah 5: 2 - Zech 14: 9-16:

1. He will be human, born as a child
2. He will be a ruler (government will be on his shoulders)
3. He will be God himself (He will be called mighty God)
4. Hiskingdom will be eternal, it will never end.
5. He will NEVER DIE
6. He will come from Judah, and rule isreal, and his kingdom will be worldwide in scope. and his kingdom will come from the strength of God himself. it can not be defeated.
7. Those who rebelled againsed him, and survived the final battle will come and worship him. No one will look down on him, but look up to him. and serve him and him only.
8. He will be served, not be a servant.
9. We are given his name: Messiah, or as we know it Christ.

Concerning the suffering servant:

Isaiah 53:

1. He will be human. (no mention of him being God)
2. He will have no kingdom, no one will look up to him, they will look down on him.
3. He is not said to be God (although he is not said not to be God)
4. He takes our punsihment for our sin.
5. He dies a horrible death
6. He will rise from the dead
7. His death will justify many.
8. He is given no name. so we do not know who he will be.

If you look at these two. You could never say they were the same person, they have two different characteristics.

that is why the pharisees killed Jesus, they wanted the first person. they did not think they were sinners or needed saved, they had no desire, or need of the second.

this is the mystery that paul spoke of.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Did you know that Christ entered into Jerusalem in order to fulfill the prophecy that God will return to Zion?

He had never been to zion, so it could not have been a return, to be a return, one would have had to come, And leave, then return. you should know this.

Did you know that His throne was the cross?

wrong, the cross was his work. his baptism, not his throne, His heavenly throne is at the right hand of God, his earthly place of honor is in jerusalem. Where he WILL return, and rul with a rod of Iron, As king messiah.

Did you know that through the cross and the Resurrection and the sending of the Holy Spirit a new down has come? Did you know that the early christians believed that God is really present with them in the Church? Did you know that the Church is built in such way to look like the Kingdom of God which is to come? Did you know that the christians believe that they are pre-tasting this kingdom while they are still on earth?

Yep.

Yet non of these things fulfill the prophesys of king messiah, as I showed in my last post.

It looks like you didn't know all these things.

we are not talking about these things, we are talking of the kings return to zion. As the angel said when he left. You will see the lord return, as he departed, in the clouds, when he returns. Even the angel understood christ would return to earth the opposite way he left.

You just said that when you said that Christ didn't come to deliver the Jews from their enemies and to restore them.

He did not. what good would it be to them if he just restored them, but did not pay for their (and our) salvation.

they would have gotten their land (in sin I might add) and he would have ruled as he promised, yet everyone who was ever born would spend eternity in hell.

Would have done alot of good wouldn;t it?