Why do Atheists Bother?

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May 4, 2014
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Adaptation is proven. Adaptation and speciation is NOT evolution. Adaptation is loss of genetic material, where evolution would require new genetic material, which never happens nor was proven.
Soup to people... no. Just no.
That's a rather curious assertion. Adaptation doesn't consistently result in a loss of genetic material that offsets material being added, and evolution does indeed result in new information being routinely created as novel mutations or gene duplications come about. In addition, accounting for new information isn't even required in many circumstances when taking the organism into account with its environment. From Wikipedia,

"The information in the genome forms a record of how it was possible to survive in a particular environment. It is not created, but rather gathered from the environment through research—by trial and error, as mutating organisms either reproduce or fail."

Whatever you're reading just isn't true at all.
 
May 4, 2014
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Oh. Hi, Live2Worship. Didn't see ya until just now.
 
Aug 25, 2013
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I dont see why someone who isnt a Christian would be in this forum in the first place.I doubt you'll convert anyone.
It's interesting, but Christians seem to disagree with one another a whole lot more than atheists disagree with other atheists. For conservative Christians that means you've got a great deal to chat about. We atheists, on the other hand, when on sites dedicated to atheists, sometimes find the sailing a bit too smooth. So, we come to Christian forums to spice up our lives. At least that is one of the reasons I am here. The other thing is that Christians, conservative ones especially, are notorious for their misunderstanding of evolution (it's because this group seems to rely almost exclusively on anti-evolution sites for their understanding of evolution and these sites are notorious for misrepresenting the facts about evolution). It means we have a lot of re-education that needs doing. Of course, that in itself is a problem because -- I think -- anti-evolutionists on the whole don't want to understand evolution better, they simply want their anti-evolution position reinforced.


kaylagrl said:
What is it about evolution that we are all missing?
Just about everything. Anytime I hear statements about evolution from anti-evolutionists it is typically misconstrued.
 

SoulWeaver

Senior Member
Oct 25, 2014
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@ Lisathrose
Mutation never produced a functional upgrade in an organism (which would be necessary to develop all the organisms from simplest bacteria to man) and science has repeatedly failed to demonstrate that it does.
 

blue_ladybug

Senior Member
Feb 21, 2014
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​how did y'all get from why atheists bother, to evolution talk? lol :)
 

SoulWeaver

Senior Member
Oct 25, 2014
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I love talking about evolution, since school days. I debated my professors about it even though I was an unbeliever back at the day. Anyways, it is good to make new friends :) sorry for hijacking the thread, I forgot what it was about, haha
 
May 4, 2014
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@ Lisathrose
Mutation never produced a functional upgrade in an organism (which would be necessary to develop all the organisms from simplest bacteria to man) and science has repeatedly failed to demonstrate that it does.
:confused:
"Functional upgrades" through beneficial mutations would include (among other things) lactose tolerance in humans, various genetically-acquired resistances to diseases in certain species that are inherited from generation to generation, mutations that allow certain organisms to utilize different sources of food (for instance, yeast in a glucose-limited environment), beneficial enzymatic functions through mistaken recombinations within a gene, demonstrable genetic divergences and beneficial mutations in bacteria over extended periods of time, and so on and so forth.

Where has science "failed to demonstrate" that beneficial mutations occur? Explicit proof otherwise is everywhere.
 

SoulWeaver

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Oct 25, 2014
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That is not a functional upgrade as required to produce a new kind of organism.
It is nothing but an adaptation or speciation (which is proven).
 
Oct 30, 2014
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@ Lisathrose
Mutation never produced a functional upgrade in an organism (which would be necessary to develop all the organisms from simplest bacteria to man) and science has repeatedly failed to demonstrate that it does.
This is just a twist on semantics. Mutation produces changes in a organism which are cumulatively sufficient enough that over time the organism changes into what could be termed a different organism (depending on the parameters of classification) due to its biological characteristics. That's how evolution works, provenly so.

We have the E.Coli experiments, penicillin resistant bacteria, mutations like sickle cell and their relation to malaria zones, and many other examples of mutations that do lead to functional, beneficial changes. These are correctly termed 'advantageous mutations', and such advantageous mutations are likely to be selected for.

What you're effectively saying is that none of this happens, but it's exactly how we come to have the variation in species that we see today. It IS the process of evolution; mutation and natural selection.
 

SoulWeaver

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Oct 25, 2014
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Human, it is all adaptation.
Show me a proven case that something evolved into a different kind of organism.
 
Oct 30, 2014
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Human, it is all adaptation.
Show me a proven case that something evolved into a different kind of organism.
SoulWeaver, you're playing with the boundaries for classification to try to prove something, but you're failing to take into account that evolutionary process itself inherently supersedes the boundaries of classification: animals mutate, and eventual become very different things. It is humankind who classifies it. It does not itself require our classification for it to be a process that happens anyway.

Fish evolved into amphibians, and amphibians evolved into reptiles, and reptiles evolved into birds. It doesn't matter to the process's validity what boundary we place on what is a 'kind' or what is a 'phylum' or a 'genus', they are just man made terms to allow us to sort things into categories for easier examination. The basis for the theory still stands; animals mutate over long periods of time,change environments, die off, some are selected, mutations are carried over to new generations, some prevail, some don't, and we end up, today with huge variation across the globe because of all of these factors.

What boundary do you want to set? I mean, do you want me to show you a 'horse kind', that magically turned into a 'dog kind'? Such a request is utterly intellectually dishonest and ignorant of how the progression within like species occurs. Of course a horse doesn't just evolve into a dog, (and the reason we classify 'species' is exactly for that reason; dogs reproduce with like species, horses reproduce with like species). That doesn't mean that evolution is false, it means that certain evolved genes are reproductively compatible with other certain evolved genes.
 
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SoulWeaver

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What boundary do you want to set? I mean, do you want me to show you a 'horse kind', that magically turned into a 'dog kind'?
Yes I do want that demonstrated, because that's exactly what you're teaching.

Fish evolved into amphibians, and amphibians evolved into reptiles, and reptiles evolved into birds.
 
May 4, 2014
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That is not a functional upgrade as required to produce a new kind of organism.
It is nothing but an adaptation or speciation (which is proven).
There's no legitimate distinction to be made between mutations that spur natural selection along and speciations -- in actuality, mutations play a key role in giving rise to speciations. To say that beneficial mutations are "nothing but adaptations or speciations" is completely arbitrary. And there is, in fact, a substantial and growing body of observable to evidence to suggest that mutations play a key role in the evolution of organisms. Polyploidization, for instance, has been observed to be an essential element in the creation of new species in angiosperms, such as O. lamarckiana variances.

You'll need to educate yourself about the role each major aspect of evolution plays. As it stands, you're asserting things that evolution simply doesn't state or imply, which stems from misconceptions. Being able to define and distinguish terms is an important element in science, and attempting to dispute the science without understanding what the science is actually stating -- at the most basic level (definitions), mind you -- isn't getting you far at all.
 
Oct 30, 2014
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Yes I do want that demonstrated, because that's exactly what you're teaching.
No, it's not. Evolutionary theory is the theory explaining the progression of life from singular celled organism to all the genetic variation we see today. Just because a dog does not evolve into a horse does not mean that evolution does not happen, it means that evolution happens in a different way than you demand to hear.

Would you say that because apes have not been observed to evolve into cats, that apes evolving into humans is a ridiculous notion? Because that's effectively what you're saying.
 

djness

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May 16, 2014
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Just for the sake of material to learn from, which evolution theory{ or fact if you think so} is true? I find that like each christian has their own view of creation each evolutionist has their own brand of evolution they think is true. So as a baseline which evolution {and it's is the most commonly held subsets} is the most widely accepted and thought true? Links would be appreciated.
 
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kennethcadwell

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There is absolutely no evidence that has been found to prove the theory of macro-evolution.
Scientist's are still trying to find this missing link to show actual evidence to support specie to another specie evolve if there even is one, which I doubt there is.



The only evidence they has been proven has been for micro-evolution.
The adaptation of an animal from a cold environment to a warm environment, and vise versa.
Also this includes the same style of a family group evolving, for instance the wolf of the canine family where we get our dog breeds from in the canine family.



As a matter of fact archaeologist have been finding more and more each year evidence to prove the places and people that are mentioned in the old and new testaments did exist. They have found numerous ruins in digs for places that once scientists have tried to say were just myths.
 
Oct 30, 2014
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Just for the sake of material to learn from, which evolution theory{ or fact if you think so} is true? I find that like each christian has their own view of creation each evolutionist has their own brand of evolution they think is true. So as a baseline which evolution {and it's is the most commonly held subsets} is the most widely accepted and thought true? Links would be appreciated.
I'm not entirely sure what you're asking, but I think you're equating evolutionary theory to something like denominational standpoint. While there are some detractors from what might be called 'mainstream evolutionary theory', the vast majority of reputable scientists adhere to the same principles, though they may use different terms.

Generally, evolutionary theory is as follows:

An organism mutates and reproduces, thus that particular organism itself becomes slightly different than other organisms of the same 'type'. For instance, in humans, some humans have blue eyes, some have green eyes. They're still 'humans', but they have different genetic characteristics. The same could be said of dark skin, or even genetic conditions such as sickle cell.

Natural selection comes into play when any mutation gives either an environmental advantage, or a disadvantage. For instance, sickle cell as a disease is itself a disadvantage when is is symptomatic, but when it is not symptimatic, it provides heightened immunity to malaria. And it is no coincidence that the instances of people who have sickle cell is highest in the places where malaria is most common.

Thus, those with asymptomatic sickle cell anaemia in malaria zones are more likely to survive malaria, thus reproduce and pass on their genes (mutation and all). That's an example of what some people call 'micro-evolution'. It is a small genetic change.

The larger changes happen the more advantageous or disadvantageous mutations accumulate in the lineage.

Let's say that twenty thousand years from now, the lineage of those who passed on the sickle cell gene have accrued various genetic mutations such as heightened hearing, or larger ears, or furrowed brows to combat intense sunlight. Eventually those people will look far different than the organisms way back when most people didn't have sickle cell. Those who didn't have sickle cell may also have furthered their lineages without the gene, thus we could have two variations of humankind with very different physical and genetic characteristics.

This is why we still have, for instance, apes. Even though humans evolved from apes, some apes did not mutate the genes necessary to further lineages that would eventually become human. Humans now rule, due to increased cranial capacity and a high density of neurons. Thus, we are 'naturally selected'.

In a nutshell, that's really how evolution by natural selection works.
 
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Anonimous

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So, you would also agree then that if Christianity fails to convince atheists it must be because the religion is faulty? Do you see where your argument fails?
I would have to add this tidbit if I could. It was never a Christian's job to convince. That is the work of the Holy Spirit... and His alone. All we're tasked with doing is simply presenting the gospel and what Jesus has done in our own lives. Only God can change a heart.