Paul And James in Total, Complete Agreement On Works
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yup.
John 15:5
New International Version
"I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.
If a man claim to remain in Jesus but not bear the fruit he is a liar.
It is similar to what Apostle John said in
I john 4;20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
John 15:5
New International Version
"I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.
If a man claim to remain in Jesus but not bear the fruit he is a liar.
It is similar to what Apostle John said in
I john 4;20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
Genuine faith produces good works. Dead faith produces no good works. It requires genuine faith in order to produce good works. When you say that genuine faith "requires" works, you make it sound like dead faith is producing these works in order to become genuine faith. That is putting the cart before the horse. What James means by faith "alone" is an empty profession of faith that remains alone (barren of works), a dead faith (James 2:14-20) not genuine faith that cannot save you because it produces no works. This kind of faith cannot save you because it does not trust IN CHRIST ALONE for salvation and has not been made alive in Christ (Ephesians 2:5-8 - cause) and the lack of good works are the (effect).
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That is not what James means by "without works." He is not saying upon the very moment of conversion you have not yet given a brother or sister the things which are needed for the body (James 2:15-16) so until you do your faith is dead. Dead faith says to a brother or sister in need, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," yet does not give a brother or sister the things which are needed for the body. Genuine faith gives a brother or sister the things which are needed for the body. Dead faith does not produce good works in order to become genuine faith, but BECAUSE it's genuine faith. Faith is genuine because it's alive in Christ/trusts in Christ alone for salvation and not in works (Ephesians 2:5-9 - cause) then unto/for good works (Ephesians 2:10 - effect). You have it backwards.
I'm not babbling at all. You just don't have ears to hear. James 2:14 - In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works. This is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith, a dead faith. How do get "actually has genuine faith" out of "says/claims" he has faith? This is a major stumbling block for you.
No, what you are erroneously saying is that we are saved through faith AND works and faith is dead until it produces works. Faith without works is dead, and it's not because we are saved by works or works are the source of life in faith, but because works prove or manifest the genuineness of our faith. James 2:18 - I will SHOW you my faith by my works. We SHOW that our faith is genuine by our works. SHOW, not establish.
Then you are calling yourself a fool. Again, in James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works. This is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith, a dead faith. You continue to misinterpret James 2:14 which causes you to stumble through the rest of the chapter.
We SHOW our faith by our works. We don't establish our faith by our works. We establish our faith by trusting exclusively in Jesus Christ for salvation (Ephesians 2:8,9). Faith is not works and works are not faith. Good works are the fruit, by-product and demonstrative evidence of genuine faith, but not the essence of genuine faith and not the means of our salvation. You still cannot make the distinction between the root of salvation (faith in Christ) and the fruit of salvation (good works).
I'm not babbling at all. You just don't have ears to hear. James 2:14 - In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works. This is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith, a dead faith. How do get "actually has genuine faith" out of "says/claims" he has faith? This is a major stumbling block for you.
No, what you are erroneously saying is that we are saved through faith AND works and faith is dead until it produces works. Faith without works is dead, and it's not because we are saved by works or works are the source of life in faith, but because works prove or manifest the genuineness of our faith. James 2:18 - I will SHOW you my faith by my works. We SHOW that our faith is genuine by our works. SHOW, not establish.
Then you are calling yourself a fool. Again, in James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works. This is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith, a dead faith. You continue to misinterpret James 2:14 which causes you to stumble through the rest of the chapter.
We SHOW our faith by our works. We don't establish our faith by our works. We establish our faith by trusting exclusively in Jesus Christ for salvation (Ephesians 2:8,9). Faith is not works and works are not faith. Good works are the fruit, by-product and demonstrative evidence of genuine faith, but not the essence of genuine faith and not the means of our salvation. You still cannot make the distinction between the root of salvation (faith in Christ) and the fruit of salvation (good works).
Matthew 7:17 - Even so, every good tree bears/produces good fruit, but a bad tree bears/produces bad fruit. Do you understand what tree and fruit represent in this verse? Matthew 12:33 - Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or else make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for a tree is known by its fruit. Do you understand what good tree/bad tree and good fruit/bad fruit and a tree is known by it's fruit represent? Matthew 13:23 - But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. Do you understand what good ground and BEARS/PRODUCES FRUIT represent? You need to read what James meant by "faith without works is dead" in context (James 2:14-20). You are forcing your own interpretation on this passage of scripture and are especially ignoring verses 14-16.
You have it backwards. It requires faith in Christ for salvation in order for faith not to be dead (cause) then good works are the effect and SHOW that our faith is not dead. *Now please explain to me how a dead faith produces good works in order to become a living faith and also how a dead tree can produce fruit in order to become a living tree, which is saying the same thing.
Whether you call it genuine faith or living faith it's the opposite of dead faith. One is alive in Christ (Ephesians 2:5-8) and the other is dead (James 2:14-20). Works are required to SHOW that our faith is not dead (James 2:14-18). How can a dead faith produce works? What is the source of life in dead faith that produces these works? Life flows through the root (faith in Christ) and produces the works just as life flows through the root of a tree and produces the fruit and not the other way around.
I have no problem with faith or works. Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace you have been saved through faith, (not faith and works) and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. (Saved for good works, not by good works). Your problem is you have it backwards. You have the tail wagging the dog, the cart before the horse.
Yes, without works/remains barren of works/given time to accomplish these works/tells a brother or sister in need "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," instead of giving them the things which are needed for the body, demonstrates a dead faith (James 2:15-16).
My genuine faith has saved me because it trusts exclusively in Jesus Christ for salvation and it is not barren of good works.
Doing works in faith is faith producing works. Without faith, these good works would not be produced.
Not ALL faith is the same. Not everyone has faith in Jesus Christ for salvation. Many people have faith in themselves, faith in their church and faith in their works, but few have faith that trusts exclusively in Jesus Christ for salvation and are saved. The majority are lost (Matthew 7:13-14). Jesus said in John 10:9 - I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.
You have it backwards. It requires faith in Christ for salvation in order for faith not to be dead (cause) then good works are the effect and SHOW that our faith is not dead. *Now please explain to me how a dead faith produces good works in order to become a living faith and also how a dead tree can produce fruit in order to become a living tree, which is saying the same thing.
Whether you call it genuine faith or living faith it's the opposite of dead faith. One is alive in Christ (Ephesians 2:5-8) and the other is dead (James 2:14-20). Works are required to SHOW that our faith is not dead (James 2:14-18). How can a dead faith produce works? What is the source of life in dead faith that produces these works? Life flows through the root (faith in Christ) and produces the works just as life flows through the root of a tree and produces the fruit and not the other way around.
I have no problem with faith or works. Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace you have been saved through faith, (not faith and works) and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. (Saved for good works, not by good works). Your problem is you have it backwards. You have the tail wagging the dog, the cart before the horse.
Yes, without works/remains barren of works/given time to accomplish these works/tells a brother or sister in need "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," instead of giving them the things which are needed for the body, demonstrates a dead faith (James 2:15-16).
My genuine faith has saved me because it trusts exclusively in Jesus Christ for salvation and it is not barren of good works.
Doing works in faith is faith producing works. Without faith, these good works would not be produced.
Not ALL faith is the same. Not everyone has faith in Jesus Christ for salvation. Many people have faith in themselves, faith in their church and faith in their works, but few have faith that trusts exclusively in Jesus Christ for salvation and are saved. The majority are lost (Matthew 7:13-14). Jesus said in John 10:9 - I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.
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E
Maybe you wont be in heaven, but I will be, God has saved me and given me eternal life, all the great riches in Christ Jesus, and his assurance that he will raise me on the last day. he promised he will complete that which he started in me, and he promised he has already perfected me until the day of Christ, he has attached me to the vine, where good works (fruit) will be produced. thus I am not worried about producing work, I know God will do it through me, I am worried about how much fruit, but not whether I will produce any or not.
No James said if a person SAYS he HAS FAITH, but does not have work, his faith is dead (non existent)
You keep taking the words "SAYS HE" out of the passage to support your gospel. sorry bro, the bible is to big to take one verse and make a gospel out of it.
next.
No James said if a person SAYS he HAS FAITH, but does not have work, his faith is dead (non existent)
You keep taking the words "SAYS HE" out of the passage to support your gospel. sorry bro, the bible is to big to take one verse and make a gospel out of it.
next.
Interesting to note that we are saved by grace. It is Gods grace that works through us not us working according to our own will. We are branches that bear fruit not producing but bearing that which God produces in us.
We are not to judge another but we are allowed to examine the fruit produced to see if it is of God. We are not able to judge another's salvation. We are completely incapable of making such a judgment. Works must flow out from one's salvation for they can never flow into one's salvation. One must also bear in mind that there are works or fruit that only God knows for not all is revealed to man.
I think it a wiser course of action to tend to one's own business than to meddle in the affairs of another unless the Lord makes it clear that one must intervene and illustrate an error according to the scriptures. Even here after the second or third admonition we are told leave it with the Lord.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
We are not to judge another but we are allowed to examine the fruit produced to see if it is of God. We are not able to judge another's salvation. We are completely incapable of making such a judgment. Works must flow out from one's salvation for they can never flow into one's salvation. One must also bear in mind that there are works or fruit that only God knows for not all is revealed to man.
I think it a wiser course of action to tend to one's own business than to meddle in the affairs of another unless the Lord makes it clear that one must intervene and illustrate an error according to the scriptures. Even here after the second or third admonition we are told leave it with the Lord.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
you are denying he has faith...God says he has....
Romans 10:17
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Romans 12:3
For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
Romans 10:17
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Romans 12:3
For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
just curious, how do you explain away the fact that we are justified by faith without the deeds of the law?
Please, try to refrain from name calling, e.g. liar, as it borders on bearing false witness.
Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Please, try to refrain from name calling, e.g. liar, as it borders on bearing false witness.
Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
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because the "deeds of law" Paul is referring to is the law of Moses, for one to be able to fallow the deeds of the Mosaic Law he would surly have something to "boast" about, since only our Savior could do it! (context context context, one more verse helps)
Romans 3:27-28 (NKJV) [SUP]27 [/SUP] Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. [SUP]28 [/SUP] Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.
Paul is not referring to the works of the Law of Christ as does James.
Romans 3:27-28 (NKJV) [SUP]27 [/SUP] Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. [SUP]28 [/SUP] Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.
Paul is not referring to the works of the Law of Christ as does James.