A very critical difference between the old and new covenants

[Jason0047]

The Different Covenants & the Animal Sacrifices:​

If there is one thing you cannot escape in the Old Testament, it is the animal sacrifices. They were present since Adam and Eve's time all the way to the rebuilding of the Temple after the exile (and even to the time of Jesus Christ). Why were they so important? Well, the means of atoning for sin in the Old Testament was in the shedding of the blood of animals. For without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin (Hebrews 9:22). Yes, the OT (Old Testament) method of sacrifice was not meant to be a perfect and permanent solution for sin. For the blood of goats and bulls could never take away sin for good (Hebrews 10:4). Only Jesus Christ's one time perfect sacrifice could take away sin permanently; Meaning, Christ's shed blood can forever wash away our sins when we repent and accept Him and or when we confess of our sins.

Now, it is important to understand that all the Covenants (i.e. The Noadic, Abrahamic, Mosaic, and Davidic Covenants) in the Old Testament relate to Jesus Christ and His sacrifice (Which is typified in the Old Testament animal sacrifices). For if Jesus Christ did not go the cross, it would regulate all the Old Covenant Promises as meaningless rubbish whereby none of them could have been truly fulfilled (as they were intended to be).

The First Testament or Old Testament (Where all the later different Covenants fall under) was based on faith. It began with God dedicating that Testament in blood with an animal God sacrificed so as to provide coats of skins so as to cover Adam and Eve's nakedness (See Hebrews 9:18; Genesis 3:21). God did not accept their efforts in them trying to cover themselves with fig leaves. God clothed them, and Adam and Eve had to accept God's covering by faith. For Scripture speaks about how God clothes (covers) us with a robe of righteousness (Isaiah 61:10). Jesus is our robe of righteousness, so when we repent of our sins and accept Him as our Savior by faith, Christ imputes His righteousness to us. Christ covers our nakedness with His sacrifice. Just as God covered Adam and Eve's nakedness with an animal sacrifice. In fact, later we see one of Adam's children (Abel) making an animal sacrifice unto God as a part of doing what was good and right according to the Lord.

The Noadic Covenant (Which is under the First Testament) is based on a Promise. A promise made to Noah and all of creation which relates to Noah, the Ark, and Global Flood, which is a picture or symbol of baptism as mentioned in the New Testament by Peter (1 Peter 3:20-21). In Baptism: When we believers go down into the water, it is symbolic of being buried with Christ (with our sins being washed away) by His sacrifice and blood. The rising up out of the water is symbolic of Christ's resurrection and how we are resurrected to new life in Him. For the Promise that God would never destroy the world with the Condemnation with a Flood again is a symbolic picture of how God will never again visit our sins that have been forgiven under Christ's sacrifice at the cross. So just as Noah and all of creation were given a new promised life after the flood, we are resurrected in a new promised life in Christ. Which again, is not possible without Christ's sacrifice. A sacrifice that is typified in the animal sacrifices of the Old Testament.

The Abrahamic Covenant (Which is under the First Testament) was a Covenant based on a Promise. It was a Promise made to Abraham that His descendants would be as innumerable as the stars whereby all the nations of the Earth would be blessed. This is only made possible by the "Promised Seed" whose name is Jesus Christ (Who is Abraham's descendant). For when a believer in Jesus Christ dies, they will one day have a new resurrected body like Jesus. They will be of the seed of Abraham, not only spiritually when they accepted Christ in this life, but they will also one day physically be of the seed of Abraham by Jesus' resurrection (Because Jesus is a physical descendant of Abraham). So when we as believers make disciples of Jesus Christ of all nations as a part of the Great Commission given to us by our Lord, we are adding to Abraham's family in being as innumerable as the stars as a part of the Promise to him, which is only made possible by Jesus Christ and His sacrifice. A sacrifice that was typified in the animal sacrifices of the Old Testament.

The Mosaic Covenant (Which is under the First Testament) is based on the Law and the Priesthood (Involving animal sacrifices). The Law was a schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ. Meaning, when a person breaks the Law, they realize that they are a sinner in need of a Savior (i.e. Jesus Christ). For they cannot perfectly keep the Law alone on their own efforts or merits; And they had to keep bringing animal sacrifice to a priest to atone for sin over and over because they had to keep revisiting the same sins every year. So it was not a permanent solution for their sin problem. They needed a person who would be a righteous substitute who kept the Law perfectly and who could died in their place (As a sacrifice) once and for all. They needed a perfect and eternal Savior. They needed a Passover Lamb who would forever take away their sin. They needed a more perfect Priest who could intercede for them any time and any place. They needed Jesus Christ. For Jesus is our Passover Lamb; And Jesus is our eternal High Priest in Heaven acting on our behalf between God the Father and us (man). So if we slip up, we as believers can confess our sins and be cleansed of all unrighteousness (1 John 2:1; 1 John 1:9). For Jesus lives today so as to forever make intercession for us. This is only made possible by Jesus Christ and His sacrifice. A sacrifice that was typified in the animal sacrifices of the Old Testament (As clearly seen in the Law of Moses or the Mosaic Covenant).

The Davidic Covenant (Which is under the First Testament) is based on a Promise. It was a Promise made to David about how the Messiah would would one day come thru David's line and rule as King one day. A King who would rule over a Kingdom of peace and righteousness. A King and a Kingdom of which in both would have no end. Meaning, David's Kingdom would last forever because of Jesus Christ. For Jesus will one day purify this world, and rebuld a new world out of it's ashes, whereby He willl be King over His people here on this Earth. This is only made possible by Jesus Christ's sacrifice. For in order for Jesus to rule as King here on this Earth, he needs a people (that are His) so as to rule over. For how can one be a King without a Kingdom? So the Davidic Covenant is contingent upon Christ's sacrifice; Which again, is typified in the animal sacrifices in the Old Testament. For David had desired to rebuild the Temple so as to reinstitute the Temple sacrifices again. But God told David that his son Solomon was going to rebuild the Temple so as to do that. So the animal sacrifices were important. They were an important part of the Old Testament as a whole. For the rebuilding of the Temple and the sacrifices were shadows of Christ. For in the New Testament, Jesus would be our temple and our sacrifice for us so as to forever save us and rule over us (As King and Priest).

So in conclusion:

We see that the different covenants (i.e. the Noadic, Abrahamic, Mosaic, and Davidic Covenants) in the Old Testament were not separate from the Old Testament or separate from the First Testament. They were all a part of the Old Covenant or the Old Testament tied to the animal sacrifices (Which are of Type of Jesus Christ's sacrifice). For the First Testament was dedicated in blood by an animal sacrifice by God Himself with Adam and Eve and those sacrifices continued as a part of God's plan on all the way up to the time of Christ dedicated the New Testament with His own blood by His sacrifice upon the cross. For Jesus even Himself said, "no man puts new wine into old wine skins." This is a contrast between the Old Testament and the New Testament (Jesus was preparing people for). For There are only two major Covenants or Testaments. For that's why our Bible's are divided between the Old Testament and the New Testament. For Jesus (who is revealed to us in the New Testament) is the fulfillment of the Old Testament.

...

 

[Jason0047]

I have read that, and I do understand that.
This verse in Titus is not saying that works are not needed, it is referring to those who believe their works earned their way into salvation. We do not earn our salvation, for it is given by His mercy.
The issue is that this does not cancel out obedience as needed, and as you can tell from the end of Titus 3:5 its still refers to baptism and the receiving of the Holy Spirit. If you think a person can go to heaven by disobeying the Lord by living in willful sin, and not doing what He said for us to do then you are misreading this verse. The bible clearly shows over and over again that obedience is required as well as obeying the Lord's commandments.

Well, we agree on the final result of what a true faith should look like, but we do not agree on how we get there.

For who deserves the credit for your obedience? You or God? If you say you deserve the credit, then what purpose is their in glorying in God in being our Savior when we just saved ourselves by our obedience? (Please see Ezekiel 36:26-27). In other words, your statement here is double minded and or it is a contradiction. On one hand you say you don't earn salvation, then on the other hand you say you must obey and do things or you are not saved (Regulating salvation to a form of "Works Salvation" instead of being saved by God's grace). For an adherance or obedience to a certain set of Laws alone for salvation is "Works Salvation." At the heart "Works Salvation " is earning salvation on your own merit and it has nothing to do with God's grace. It's either Salvation by "God's grace and His work done in you" or it is "Works Salvation." It can't be both.

In fact, we know you can't take the credit for your salvation in your own effort to save yourself. For in Revelation, the elders had thrown down their crowns before Jesus Christ.

Works and holiness will always testify of a true faith of someone who is truly saved and born again spiritually. This is because they are changed spiritually and they have God living with them.

However, works and holiness are not done so as to be saved. They are merely the result of true salvation (When a person repents of their sins and accepts Jesus Christ as their Savior).

 

[Standingwolf13]

We all know that CHRIST died on the cross right, and we all know that before he made it to the cross he had to suffer greatly.

Now since we all know this, we also know that this was GOD'S one and only son that had to be killed to redeem the world. Here this, had to be killed, now since CHRIST had to die do you not believe that you are required to die as well?

In order to receive the promise that GOD has spoken of in the Old Testament, the promise that our ancestors wandered around the wilderness lost for, the promise that JESUS built HIS church on, blood is required from us.


Not literally, but fleshly, the world is under Satan’s rule and the only way to separate us from it is through death. This is what that means for those of us in denial, JESUS spells it out.

Matthew13Then people brought little children to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and pray for them. But the disciples rebuked them. Matthew 1914Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.”


Because they are perfect host for the SPIRIT OF GOD not knowing either good or evil until they enter the world or it is taught to them.



1 Peter 2 New International Version (NIV)
2 Therefore, rid yourselves (A) of all malice and all deceit, hypocrisy, envy, and slander (B) of every kind. 2 Like newborn babies, crave pure spiritual milk, (C) so that by it you may grow up (D) in your salvation,

Spiritual milk where can that be found? The Spiritual milk that is spoken of is the SPOKEN WORD OF GOD

Where is the SPOKEN WORD OF GOD located? Old Testament the Old Testament / The Laws

Can most people handle the SPIRITUAL MILK? No



1 Peter 2 New International Version (NIV)
4 As you come to him, the living Stone(F)—rejected by humans but chosen by God(G) and precious to him— 5 you also, like living stones, are being built(H) into a spiritual house[a](I) to be a holy priesthood,(J) offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.(K) 6 For in Scripture it says:
“See, I lay a stone in Zion,
a chosen and precious cornerstone, (L)
and the one who trusts in him
will never be put to shame.
What is a living stone? CHRIST JESUS he is the stone that builders rejected.
How do we know that he requires us to be in SPIRIT?
Matthew 16 New International Version (NIV)
13 When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”
14 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist ;(L) Others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”(M)
15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”
16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”(N)
17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, (O) but by my Father in heaven.

How did you come to the conclusion that the SPIRIT OF GOD was in question here?
Matthew 16 New International Version (NIV)
6 “Be careful,” Jesus said to them. “Be on your guard against the yeast of the Pharisees and Sadducees.”(F)
7 They discussed this among themselves and said, “It is because we didn’t bring any bread.”
8 Aware of their discussion, Jesus asked, “You of little faith, (G) why are you talking among yourselves about having no bread? 9 Do you still not understand? Don’t you remember the five loaves for the five thousand, and how many basketfuls you gathered?(H) 10 Or the seven loaves for the four thousand, and how many basketfuls you gathered?(I) 11 How is it you don’t understand that I was not talking to you about bread? But be on your guard against the yeast of the Pharisees and Sadducees.” 12 Then they understood that he was not telling them to guard against the yeast used in bread, but against the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees. (J)
Well this means that if you are correct in what you say then billions of people are not going to make into the kingdom!!!!!!!!!!!!!



John 419 “Sir,” the woman said, “I can see that you are a prophet. (N) 20 Our ancestors worshiped on this mountain, (O) but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem.”(P)
21 “Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming (Q) when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem.

John 423 Yet a time is coming and has now come (U) when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit (V) and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, (W) and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

Why would GOD want us to worship in the SPIRIT? Exodus 3411 Obey what I command (Z) you today. I will drive out before you the Amorites, Canaanites, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites.(AA)12 Be careful not to make a treaty(AB) with those who live in the land where you are going, or they will be a snare(AC) among you. 13 Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones and cut down their Asherah poles.[a](AD) 14 Do not worship any other god,(AE) for the Lord, whose name(AF) is Jealous, is a jealous God.(AG)
15 “Be careful not to make a treaty(AH) with those who live in the land; for when they prostitute(AI) themselves to their gods and sacrifice to them, they will invite you and you will eat their sacrifices.(AJ) 16 And when you choose some of their daughters as wives(AK) for your sons and those daughters prostitute themselves to their gods,(AL) they will lead your sons to do the same.
17 “Do not make any idols.(AM)

Look at this right back to very word that started the beginning of sin and will be the end to all sin OBEDIENCE TO GOD.
Matthew 6:24 “No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.



I am definitely not trying to belittle this post in any way I just want readers to know that it is the OBEDIENCE spoken from the old testament that save you and I in the new testament.

That is the grace that GOD gives us to be OBEDIENT to the SPOKEN WORD OF GOD. Only then can we defeat Satan and his angels who are surrounding us daily at every turn.
To hear, listen to; obey
So, in the new covenant, the free gift of grace (unwarranted favor) you are correct in fact this is GOD'S PLAN.

 

[The_highwayman]

Maybe you misunder stood me, if so ,Forgive me.

again, sin is an attitude. I can give 1000 dollars to church looking for praise and glory and expecting to recieve something in return. That act was a sin, caused by an attitude of self righteousness.

if I do it out of love of the body of Christ, and expect nothing in return (not even praise) then I do it out of love this is an act of righteousness which glorifies God.

that is what I was trying to say.

Understood...

Righteousness is given to you as a gift through your faith and by God's grace. Righteousness is not an act. It is a position with God.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Understood...

Righteousness is given to you as a gift through your faith and by God's grace. Righteousness is not an act. It is a position with God.

yes! This is 100 % true

 

[AtonedFor]

Scripture does not present grace as "opportunity,"
rather it presents grace as effectual, as power at work.
Effectual grace accomplishes its work completely and permanently.
Scripture likewise presents several effects of grace, none of which are
conditional or fleeting; for example,
regenerating grace (Jn 1:13, 3:5; Jas 1:18; 1Pe 1:23),
believing grace (Ac 18:27),
saving grace (Eph 2:8-9),
enabling grace (Php 2:13),
healing grace (Jas 5:15),
all of which are irrevocable.

The purpose of the warnings in Scripture is to show the difference between true saving faith and false faith (not of grace) which does not save, so that the believer knows The Way
(early name for Christianity) of true saving faith.
Those who do not heed the warnings show their faith is false (not of grace)
and does not save.

Okay, this appears to be a reasonable doctrine to consider.

Are you saying that some "believers" are under grace,
and some are not, as in: God's wheat and Satan's tares?

Are you saying that effectual grace cannot be walked away from,
i.e. the believer under effectual grace has NO free will to do such?

Or, are you saying that since God knows the end from the beginning,
those believers under effectual grace are under an irrevocable grace?
These would be the elect described in Romans 8:28-30.

While you're at it ... what do you think of Paul's letter to the church at Ephesus?
He talks about the guaranteed elect ... is everyone in this church part of the elect?
Like 100%?

 

[secularhermit]

Yes, I agree, if the governing authority imposes a penalty for a particular sin.

Good point! We have centuries with "governing authorities" used to do what it is oppose to law, JUSTICE and yet they lack the moral to impose penalties for sins.

Sometimes I want to live another planet, or the moon, just to avoid my own transgressions.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Well, we agree on the final result of what a true faith should look like, but we do not agree on how we get there.

For who deserves the credit for your obedience? You or God? If you say you deserve the credit, then what purpose is their in glorying in God in being our Savior when we just saved ourselves by our obedience? (Please see Ezekiel 36:26-27). In other words, your statement here is double minded and or it is a contradiction. On one hand you say you don't earn salvation, then on the other hand you say you must obey and do things or you are not saved (Regulating salvation to a form of "Works Salvation" instead of being saved by God's grace). For an adherance or obedience to a certain set of Laws alone for salvation is "Works Salvation." At the heart "Works Salvation " is earning salvation on your own merit and it has nothing to do with God's grace. It's either Salvation by "God's grace and His work done in you" or it is "Works Salvation." It can't be both.

In fact, we know you can't take the credit for your salvation in your own effort to save yourself. For in Revelation, the elders had thrown down their crowns before Jesus Christ.

Works and holiness will always testify of a true faith of someone who is truly saved and born again spiritually. This is because they are changed spiritually and they have God living with them.

However, works and holiness are not done so as to be saved. They are merely the result of true salvation (When a person repents of their sins and accepts Jesus Christ as their Savior).

I never said we are to take the credit.
I have said and have always said that God gets the credit for everything we do, for if it wasn't for Him we wouldn't even be on earth to do the things we do. The problem is with those who believe a believer can never be disobedient. The bible does not say that at all, from Jesus all the way through the epistles it speaks of obedience and what happens to somebody who as become a partaker in Christ and has received the Holy Spirit. Yet still remain in or turn back to disobedience/sin. That is why we have the unforgivable sin of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, one who continues to deny Him working in them and not listening to that guidance. This is also why we have the scripture that say not everybody who calls Him Lord will not enter the kingdom of heaven, because they walk in mere belief with no actions, obedience, and love in their walk.

 

[ELECT]

I never said we are to take the credit.
I have said and have always said that God gets the credit for everything we do, for if it wasn't for Him we wouldn't even be on earth to do the things we do. The problem is with those who believe a believer can never be disobedient. The bible does not say that at all, from Jesus all the way through the epistles it speaks of obedience and what happens to somebody who as become a partaker in Christ and has received the Holy Spirit. Yet still remain in or turn back to disobedience/sin. That is why we have the unforgivable sin of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, one who continues to deny Him working in them and not listening to that guidance. This is also why we have the scripture that say not everybody who calls Him Lord will not enter the kingdom of heaven, because they walk in mere belief with no actions, obedience, and love in their walk.

The old is the new contained the new is the old explained

 

[ELECT]

Good point! We have centuries with "governing authorities" used to do what it is oppose to law, JUSTICE and yet they lack the moral to impose penalties for sins.

Sometimes I want to live another planet, or the moon, just to avoid my own transgressions.

it will just be sinning on a new planet

 

[AtonedFor]

The problem is with those who believe a believer can never be disobedient.
The bible does not say that at all, from Jesus all the way through the epistles ...

A believer can be disobedient, but sincerely repent, and all is forgiven.

But he can be disobedient and continue in this lifestyle and never repent, and is NOT forgiven.

This is because God did NOT create any robots ...
but He did create humans with totally free-will to do as they please.

Doesn't matter that the Holy Spirit tries to keep him in line ...
he has his free-will to ensure his freedom.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

A believer can be disobedient, but sincerely repent, and all is forgiven.

But he can be disobedient and continue in this lifestyle and never repent, and is NOT forgiven.

This is because God did NOT create any robots ...
but He did create humans with totally free-will to do as they please.

Doesn't matter that the Holy Spirit tries to keep him in line ...
he has his free-will to ensure his freedom.

A believer can not be disobedient and never repent, If he has been saved he has already repented.

A believer can not live in sin, because the spirit of God resides in him, and he can not sin (quoted from John)

It is not a matter of free will. It is a matter of true repentance. A person saved from sin would never DESIRE to go back to what he was, because he KNOWS what he came out of. and how futile the worlds way was at making him truly blessed.

 

[AtonedFor]

A believer can not live in sin, because the spirit of God resides in him, and he can not sin (quoted from John)

Quoted from John ...
Is the following passage saying ...
the Holy Spirit only remains in those who love Jesus and keep His commandments!

John 14:
[SUP]15 [/SUP]“If you love Me, keep My commandments. [SUP]
16 [/SUP]And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper,
that He may abide with you forever— [SUP]
17 [/SUP]the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive,
because it neither sees Him nor knows Him;
but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. [SUP]
18 [/SUP]I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]“A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me.
Because I live, you will live also. [SUP]
20 [/SUP]At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. [SUP]
21 [/SUP]He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me.
And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father,
and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him,
“Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?”
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Jesus answered and said to him,
“If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him,
and We will come to him and make Our home with him.”

It just seems to me that all the blessings in the OT and NT are CONDITIONAL.
Blessings and curses are everywhere for those who can read and comprehend.

 

[CRC]

The Ten Commandments of the Law covenant were written on stone tablets, which eventually disappeared. In contrast, Jeremiah prophesied that the law of the new covenant would be written in human hearts, and it would endure

 

[Jason0047]

I never said we are to take the credit.
I have said and have always said that God gets the credit for everything we do, for if it wasn't for Him we wouldn't even be on earth to do the things we do. The problem is with those who believe a believer can never be disobedient. The bible does not say that at all, from Jesus all the way through the epistles it speaks of obedience and what happens to somebody who as become a partaker in Christ and has received the Holy Spirit. Yet still remain in or turn back to disobedience/sin. That is why we have the unforgivable sin of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, one who continues to deny Him working in them and not listening to that guidance. This is also why we have the scripture that say not everybody who calls Him Lord will not enter the kingdom of heaven, because they walk in mere belief with no actions, obedience, and love in their walk.

As I said. We agree on the final result. But I am not convinced that you truly believe we are saved by God's grace if you claim faith and obedience are tied together. That's like saying, I need to still do something to be saved. Which is "Works salvation."

In other words, what is saving you at this very second right now?
Is it your repentance and belief and faith in Jesus Christ?
Or is it all your precious obedient works you did recently that you think just really impressed God?
What do you do if you mess up or fall short of God's glory?
Does that not tarnish your perfect record?
Do we not get cleansed of all unrighteousness thru confessing our sins? (1 John 1:9).
Or are our sins cleansed when we do lots and lots of good works for God?
You know, does God weigh our good deeds with our imperfections?

Now, do not misunderstand me, if a believer is not living holy or they have zero fruitful works in their life to show they are a believer, then they did not truly repent with a real broken heart in their acceptance of Christ. For a person who has been spiritually regenerated and has been rooted in God's Word will endure persecution and and or the cares of this life. For in the Parable of the Sower those who did not endure where those who did not have root or good grounded faith in God's Word (Matthew 13:21, 19). The person who receives the seed unto good ground is he that understands the Word and is fruitful. These two things are key to a person who is regenerated spiritually. The first one is understanding of God's Word; For the mysteries of the Kingdom are not given to those who do not truly believe God's Word which comes from a true repentance (and acceptance of God with a pure heart). The second one is in being fruitful for God. A fruitfulness that does not come from you. You might say you are not earning your salvation, but if you claim belief and obedience is a requirement for salvation that is exactly what earning salvation actually means.

In other words, do you believe you are a caterpillar who has to make artifical wings in order to fly?
Or do you believe you have to be transformed into a butterfly whereby you will naturally have wings so as to fly?

The point I am getting at is that those who do not endure in the faith, did not truly repent and or they had no root in God's Word. They did not truly bond with Jesus Christ on a deep enough level (good ground) to be truly intimate so as to have a lasting and deep relationship that will overcome the trials and challenges of this life by allowing God to do the good work within them (And not of their own effort).

 

[Elin]

Scripture does not present grace as "opportunity,"
rather it presents grace as effectual, as power at work.
Effectual grace accomplishes its work completely and permanently.
Scripture likewise presents several effects of grace, none of which are
conditional or fleeting; for example,
regenerating grace (Jn 1:13, 3:5; Jas 1:18; 1Pe 1:23),
believing grace (Ac 18:27),
saving grace (Eph 2:8-9),
enabling grace (Php 2:13),
healing grace (Jas 5:15),
all the work of which are irrevocable.

The purpose of the warnings in Scripture is to show the difference between true saving faith and false faith (not of grace) which does not save, so that the believer knows The Way
(early name for Christianity) of true saving faith.
Those who do not heed the warnings show their faith is false (not of grace)
and does not save.

Okay, this appears to be a reasonable doctrine to consider.

Are you saying that some "believers" are under grace,
and some are not, as in: God's wheat and Satan's tares?

That would be a good way to categorize them.

Are you saying that effectual grace cannot be walked away from,
i.e. the believer under effectual grace has NO free will to do such?

He has no desire to do such.

Our wills are governed by our dispositions.
God works in the disposition to dispose the will toward his will.

Or, are you saying that since God knows the end from the beginning,
those believers under effectual grace are under an irrevocable grace?
These would be the elect described in Romans 8:28-30.

All those born again of the Holy Spirit are the recipients of effectual grace, whose saving work is irrevocable.

Satan's tares are not born again, they are not recipients of effectual grace,
their faith is not of grace, it is counterfeit, and they are not saved.

While you're at it ... what do you think of Paul's letter to the church at Ephesus?
He talks about the guaranteed elect ... is everyone in this church part of the elect?
Like 100%?

The elect are the born again (regenerated), saved.
Jesus indicates that the wheat (regenerated) and the tares (unregenerated) are mixed in together in the church.
So that means all those who participate in the church would not be saved, only the regenerate would be.

 

[AtonedFor]

The elect are the born again (regenerated), saved.
Jesus indicates that the wheat (regenerated) and the tares (unregenerated)
are mixed in together in the church.
So that means all those who participate in the church would not be saved,
only the regenerate would be.

Yes, IMO, Paul wrote to a particular group in the church at Ephesus
... he wrote ONLY to the saints who are "faithful".
But, no one believes me about this (i.e. I could be wrong).

He went on and on about the elect who are guaranteed eternal life, etc.
Makes no sense to me ... that he could actually be writing to everyone.
However, Paul was always seemed full of optimism with his constant edifying, exhorting, etc.
With his sly dire warnings carefully mixed in!

 

[kennethcadwell]

As I said. We agree on the final result. But I am not convinced that you truly believe we are saved by God's grace if you claim faith and obedience are tied together. That's like saying, I need to still do something to be saved. Which is "Works salvation."

In other words, what is saving you at this very second right now?
Is it your repentance and belief and faith in Jesus Christ?
Or is it all your precious obedient works you did recently that you think just really impressed God?
What do you do if you mess up or fall short of God's glory?
Does that not tarnish your perfect record?
Do we not get cleansed of all unrighteousness thru confessing our sins? (1 John 1:9).
Or are our sins cleansed when we do lots and lots of good works for God?
You know, does God weigh our good deeds with our imperfections?

Now, do not misunderstand me, if a believer is not living holy or they have zero fruitful works in their life to show they are a believer, then they did not truly repent with a real broken heart in their acceptance of Christ. For a person who has been spiritually regenerated and has been rooted in God's Word will endure persecution and and or the cares of this life. For in the Parable of the Sower those who did not endure where those who did not have root or good grounded faith in God's Word (Matthew 13:21, 19). The person who receives the seed unto good ground is he that understands the Word and is fruitful. These two things are key to a person who is regenerated spiritually. The first one is understanding of God's Word; For the mysteries of the Kingdom are not given to those who do not truly believe God's Word which comes from a true repentance (and acceptance of God with a pure heart). The second one is in being fruitful for God. A fruitfulness that does not come from you. You might say you are not earning your salvation, but if you claim belief and obedience is a requirement for salvation that is exactly what earning salvation actually means.

In other words, do you believe you are a caterpillar who has to make artifical wings in order to fly?
Or do you believe you have to be transformed into a butterfly whereby you will naturally have wings so as to fly?

The point I am getting at is that those who do not endure in the faith, did not truly repent and or they had no root in God's Word. They did not truly bond with Jesus Christ on a deep enough level (good ground) to be truly intimate so as to have a lasting and deep relationship that will overcome the trials and challenges of this life by allowing God to do the good work within them (And not of their own effort).

What did Jesus say in Matthew 25's separation of the sheep from the goats.
He tells the goats who also believed in Him as their Lord, that because they did not help ( denied ) others in need they denied Him. And they were sent to eternal punishment, not eternal life.
Then He also says you have to repent of your sins, forgive others of theirs, confess Him before others, and be baptized or you will not be welcomed or inherit the kingdom of heaven.

 

[Laodicea]

The old covenant used the blood of animals the new the blood of Jesus.

Hebrews 9:11-14 KJV
(11) But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
(12) Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
(13) For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
(14) How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

 

[Jason0047]

What did Jesus say in Matthew 25's separation of the sheep from the goats.
He tells the goats who also believed in Him as their Lord, that because they did not help ( denied ) others in need they denied Him. And they were sent to eternal punishment, not eternal life.
Then He also says you have to repent of your sins, forgive others of theirs, confess Him before others, and be baptized or you will not be welcomed or inherit the kingdom of heaven.

So you believe this is teaching "Works Salvation"?

Have you considered that this is said so as to get people to repent for real so that they will then be regenerated spiritually by the Holy Spirit so as to naturally do these things as a part of being a new creature in Christ (Whereby all things become new)? Have you considered that it is merely us yielding to God or Christ within us who does such a work, and that the answer is... "not you" ?