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N
Nicee
Guest
J
jeff_peacemkr
Guest
remember. don't seek the gifts. except prophecy.
seek Yahweh HIMSELF. seek Yahweh's Face.
other's , seeking something else, went astray.
seek Yahweh HIMSELF. seek Yahweh's Face.
other's , seeking something else, went astray.
K
Kaycie
Guest
1 Corinthians 13:8-10 Where there are prophesies they will cease, where there are tongues they will be stilled, where there is knowledge it will pass away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part, but when completion comes the imperfect disappears.
When something is incomplete it is not perfect. The bible was incomplete, so there were prophets to help guide God's people until they had the full bible. It is now complete, we have Genesis through Revelation, and now that we have perfection, the old ways disappear.
1 Corinthians 13:13 says faith, hope, and love remain. If something remains that means that something else was taken away. So what was taken away? Miracles. Miracles had a purpose and now that purpose Has been fulfilled. Miracles were to identify the prophets, Christ, and the apostles.
We still have prayer, and the bible says the prayer of a righteous man does much good, and it does, I've seen it. But I know I will not see someone walking on water, instantly healing the deaf, blind, lame, and lepers, or parting water.
When something is incomplete it is not perfect. The bible was incomplete, so there were prophets to help guide God's people until they had the full bible. It is now complete, we have Genesis through Revelation, and now that we have perfection, the old ways disappear.
1 Corinthians 13:13 says faith, hope, and love remain. If something remains that means that something else was taken away. So what was taken away? Miracles. Miracles had a purpose and now that purpose Has been fulfilled. Miracles were to identify the prophets, Christ, and the apostles.
We still have prayer, and the bible says the prayer of a righteous man does much good, and it does, I've seen it. But I know I will not see someone walking on water, instantly healing the deaf, blind, lame, and lepers, or parting water.
God never intended for any of us to get sick. That was brought upon us by satan. Christ was brought to us to restore all that God intended for us. He has won that authority but is yet to return to enforce it. We are charged with enforcing it here and now. We do that thru the gifts and fruit of the Holy Spirit until He returns. In other words, healings will cease when Christ returns and no one is getting sick any more.
Tongues is another example. When man was created and as his numbers grew he had a single spiritual language. That was lost at the tower of Babel. When Christ returns He will restore that single spiritual language. Tongues is our ability to tap into that future restoration here and now. I.e., tongues will cease when the single spiritual language is restored.
The perfection spoken of in 1 Corinthians is not the completion of the Bible. It is the restoration of all that God intended for us but was lost.
Don't let satan (or the naysayers) steal from you the gifts of the Holy Spirit!
Tongues is another example. When man was created and as his numbers grew he had a single spiritual language. That was lost at the tower of Babel. When Christ returns He will restore that single spiritual language. Tongues is our ability to tap into that future restoration here and now. I.e., tongues will cease when the single spiritual language is restored.
The perfection spoken of in 1 Corinthians is not the completion of the Bible. It is the restoration of all that God intended for us but was lost.
Don't let satan (or the naysayers) steal from you the gifts of the Holy Spirit!
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Prophets were listed with teachers, pastors, evangelists. There isn't evidence any of those offices have ceased. All are being used of God around the world. Many churches have never had a pastor. Missionaries take that office to people, some becoming pastors. Evangelists are still important. Paul saif he would rather prophesy than to speak in unknown tongues without an interpreter. He also said he spoke in unknown tongues more than anyone. Since the words of future uttered prophecies were not recorded of those he taught that to, how can anyone declare that's off limits? Who knows what all was said then written? How many personal words did Jesus speak in private on earth, or the apostles? The apostle John signed off with
John 21:24-25 (KJV) [SUP]24 [/SUP] This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true.
[SUP]25 [/SUP] And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.
That leaves open a "word of knowledge" given by the Holy Spirit to be spoken to the edifying of a brother, words not found in the Bible, but never contradicting it. I could go on and on, but hope that helps answer.
John 21:24-25 (KJV) [SUP]24 [/SUP] This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true.
[SUP]25 [/SUP] And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.
That leaves open a "word of knowledge" given by the Holy Spirit to be spoken to the edifying of a brother, words not found in the Bible, but never contradicting it. I could go on and on, but hope that helps answer.
C
ChristIsGod
Guest
No.
Ding -- fight begins ... but I won't post again on this.
Begins? I don't think it has ever stopped
And again, let me caution people here. This above all is a very slippery subject. Consider Matthew 12. Jesus was casting out demons by the power of the Holy Spirit. There were some who claimed He did it by the power of the devil. Jesus told them flat out that doing so was blaspheme and the one and only sin that's unforgiveable.
So if someone today works a gift, and someone else denies it is by the Holy Spirit... well, 2+2= what?
You may not work Spiritual gifts, but think twice (and even thrice) before you discount them in others. You skate on verrry thin ice when you do.
So if someone today works a gift, and someone else denies it is by the Holy Spirit... well, 2+2= what?
You may not work Spiritual gifts, but think twice (and even thrice) before you discount them in others. You skate on verrry thin ice when you do.
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Kerry
Guest
The problem with the New Testament gifts is that they only seem to come to people in certain denominations. This is most evident in the "gift of tongues" in that just about an entire congregation can be endowed with this gift in one church, and in the church across the street, amazingly no one has it. It's also a strange coincidence that these gifts have only began to reappear when the Pentecostal movement began in the early 1900s. In fact, between about 100 AD and 1900 AD, almost no one spoke in tongues. Now all of a sudden all you need to do is pull up to your nearest AoG church to find flocks of people with the gift.
If anyone did an in-depth historical study of Christianity and the charismatic movement, specifically involving the "gifts of the spirit" referred to in this topic, you would see the strong correlations that would hint to these gifts being man-made and not Spirit driven.
If anyone did an in-depth historical study of Christianity and the charismatic movement, specifically involving the "gifts of the spirit" referred to in this topic, you would see the strong correlations that would hint to these gifts being man-made and not Spirit driven.
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Kerry
Guest
You would need to explain Paul as he was not present at the day of Pentecost and was busy imprisoning Christians. Then why would he teach and explain the gifts of the Spirit to the churches if it were nor for them. The reason why the church across the street doe's not have it is simply because they do not believe it.
Maybe because people are being taught that the gifts have ceased? So they arnt being trained in spiritual things.
I could turn that around and say is the only reason you have the gift because your church believes they are real? In other words, is the gift a real Spirit-led thing? If so, why is the most important factor as to whether you have the gift or not dependent on what doctrine your church believes. Should that even matter? It's kind of like seeing demons. Why are the people who believe that you can see demons the only ones who ever see demons? To bring it back to tongues, why doesn't anyone in a Baptist church ever break out in the gift of tongues? Why is the gift of tongues so commonplace now, when it was virtually nonexistent for centuries?
Once again, do an in-depth sociological study. Look up the history of these gifts throughout the last 2,000 years. Then look up the Azusa street revival in the early 1900s and the beginnings of the Pentecostal movement that has taken the religion by storm now a century later. The idea that these gifts are Spirit-led just does not make sense in this context.
Once again, do an in-depth sociological study. Look up the history of these gifts throughout the last 2,000 years. Then look up the Azusa street revival in the early 1900s and the beginnings of the Pentecostal movement that has taken the religion by storm now a century later. The idea that these gifts are Spirit-led just does not make sense in this context.
K
Kerry
Guest
Now you are grabbing straws and reaching, does the bible teach the gifts of the Spirit or not, does it teach seeing demons and magical things. It is Gods word or it is a lie, your choice.
I don't believe they have. Is the manifestation of the Spirit misused by some? Yes.
We couldn't even be led to understand the scriptures without word of knowledge and word of wisdom. Word of knowledge is one of the manifestations of the Spirit that is proposed to be ceased.
We couldn't even be led to understand the scriptures without word of knowledge and word of wisdom. Word of knowledge is one of the manifestations of the Spirit that is proposed to be ceased.
You're right. You do see people who believe in it gathered separately from people who don't. Kinda like you see those who are Baptist meeting separately from the Lutherans. Birds of a feather flock together, right? But you're right to be suspicious, especially those who holier than thou it. The pendulum swings too far on both sides. Those who do none of it are no more wrong than those who make a stage show of it. Maybe less so I think.
I think if you did an in depth historical study of Christianity I think you'd find... pretty inconclusive results. The early church met door to door in little neighborhood gatherings. You really gonna say with 100% certainty that it never happened anywhere? You have to remember, this is activity the rulers of this world don't want to see going on. So they're going to do everything they can to muddy the waters and discourage it. They'll deny it, they'll fake it, they'll steer congregations off track and into the hinterlands. In fact the fact that they deny it, fake it, and hijack it is good reason to suspect the gifts are for real. You just have to find the middle ground, and there's a gift for that. It's called discernment.
1 Corinthians 14 is a primer. Paul says here's the rules, go seek them, but if you go outside the rules put a leash on it. Paul never did say God is the same then, now, and forever, except for this.
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Matthew 8:
5 When Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to him, asking for help. 6“Lord,” he said, “my servant lies at home paralyzed, suffering terribly.” 7 Jesus said to him, “Shall I come and heal him?” 8 The centurion replied, “Lord, I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. But just say the word, and my servant will be healed. 9 For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and that one, ‘Come,’ and he comes. I say to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.” 10 When Jesus heard this, he was amazed and said to those following him, “Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. 11 I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” 13 Then Jesus said to the centurion, “Go! Let it be done just as you believed it would.” And his servant was healed at that moment.
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Matthew 8
23 Then he got into the boat and his disciples followed him. 24 Suddenly a furious storm came up on the lake, so that the waves swept over the boat. But Jesus was sleeping. 25 The disciples went and woke him, saying, “Lord, save us! We’re going to drown!” 26 He replied, “You of little faith, why are you so afraid?” Then he got up and rebuked the winds and the waves, and it was completely calm. 27 The men were amazed and asked, “What kind of man is this? Even the winds and the waves obey him!”
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Matthew 9
1 Jesus stepped into a boat, crossed over and came to his own town. 2 Some men brought to him a paralyzed man, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the man, “Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven.”
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Matthew 9
20 Just then a woman who had been subject to bleeding for twelve years came up behind him and touched the edge of his cloak. 21 She said to herself, “If I only touch his cloak, I will be healed.” 22 Jesus turned and saw her. “Take heart, daughter,” he said, “your faith has healed you.” And the woman was healed at that moment.
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Matthew 9
27 As Jesus went on from there, two blind men followed him, calling out, “Have mercy on us, Son of David!” 28 When he had gone indoors, the blind men came to him, and he asked them, “Do you believe that I am able to do this?” “Yes, Lord,” they replied. 29 Then he touched their eyes and said, “According to your faith let it be done to you”; 30 and their sight was restored.
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Matthew 13
53 When Jesus had finished these parables, he moved on from there. 54 Coming to his hometown, he began teaching the people in their synagogue, and they were amazed. “Where did this man get this wisdom and these miraculous powers?” they asked. 55 “Isn’t this the carpenter’s son? Isn’t his mother’s name Mary, and arena’t his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas? 56 Aren’t all his sisters with us? Where then did this man get all these things?” 57 And they took offense at him. But Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor except in his own town and in his own home.” 58 And he did not do many miracles there because of their lack of faith.
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Matthew 14
25 Shortly before dawn Jesus went out to them, walking on the lake. 26 When the disciples saw him walking on the lake, they were terrified. “It’s a ghost,” they said, and cried out in fear. 27 But Jesus immediately said to them: “Take courage! It is I. Don’t be afraid.” 28 “Lord, if it’s you,” Peter replied, “tell me to come to you on the water.” 29 “Come,” he said. Then Peter got down out of the boat, walked on the water and came toward Jesus. 30 But when he saw the wind, he was afraid and, beginning to sink, cried out, “Lord, save me!” 31 Immediately Jesus reached out his hand and caught him. “You of little faith,” he said, “why did you doubt?”
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Matthew 15
21 Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon. 22 A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, “Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is demon-possessed and suffering terribly.” 23 Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, “Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.” 24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.” 25The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said. 26He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.” 27“Yes it is, Lord,” she said. “Even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.” 28 Then Jesus said to her, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed at that moment.
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Matthew 17
14 When they came to the crowd, a man approached Jesus and knelt before him. 15 “Lord, have mercy on my son,” he said. “He has seizures and is suffering greatly. He often falls into the fire or into the water. 16 I brought him to your disciples, but they could not heal him.” 17 “You unbelieving and perverse generation,” Jesus replied, “how long shall I stay with you? How long shall I put up with you? Bring the boy here to me.” 18 Jesus rebuked the demon, and it came out of the boy, and he was healed at that moment. 19 Then the disciples came to Jesus in private and asked, “Why could’t we drive it out?” 20 He replied, “Because you have so little faith. Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.”
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Matthew 21
18 Early in the morning, as Jesus was on his way back to the city, he was hungry. 19 Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it, “May you never bear fruit again!” Immediately the tree withered. 20 When the disciples saw this, they were amazed. “How did the fig tree wither so quickly?” they asked. 21 Jesus replied, “Truly I tell you, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and it will be done. 22 If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.”
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Matthew 13:58 And he did not do many miracles there because of their lack of faith.
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And that's just Matthew. You could double that with Hebrews 11, and double it again out of all the other books.
So clearly, receiving divine gifts is based upon believing- nothing but, and not the other way around.
A word of caution to the other side of this argument:
Matthew 7
[SUP]21 [/SUP]“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. [SUP]22 [/SUP]On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ [SUP]23 [/SUP]And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
2 warnings actually:
The Coming of the Lawless One
2 Thessalonians 2
[SUP]7 [/SUP]For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
[SUP]12 [/SUP]That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
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