Why do Atheists Bother?

[didymos]

What you're saying is true. No question. You have a more knowledgeable mind than Adam and Eve before they partook of the tree though. Essentially, it's irrelevant all the true points you're making about relying on parents. The question remains: How are they suppose to not do "wrong" when they have no idea of what "right or wrong" even is? How are they suppose to know it's wrong to partake of the fruit (even when God told them not to), when they have no earthly idea what "wrong" even is?

I have a more knowledgeable mind, because I was born AFTER Eve ate from the 'Tree of Good and Evil' (duh). They had to eat from the tree FIRST to have an idea of morality in the first place. So what should have stopped them from partaking of that tree was only their TRUST in God. There was great intimacy between Man and God then, God walked with Adam in the garden like a father walks with his child.
In so many ways the account of the Fall is an explanatory story about why we developed a sense of morality, a story that can't be told without the notions of 'right' and 'wrong,' even though Adam and Eve weren't familiar with those notions at first. But we, readers of that explanatory story, ARE and the story wouldn't make sense to us if it DIDN'T include those concepts. It's like you're watching a scary movie and you already know what's going to happen, but the character in the movie doesn't.

 

[didymos]

In computers, you can create operating systems that do many different functions in many different ways. If we program the computer to "shut down" without defining what "shut down" even is, are we going to expect the computer to shut down when we give the command? Would it not be prudent to define "shut down" before expecting the computer to shut down when you give the command?

.........

 

[Colorful]

I have a more knowledgeable mind, because I was born AFTER Eve ate from the 'Tree of Good and Evil' (duh). They had to eat from the tree FIRST to have an idea of morality in the first place. So what should have stopped them from partaking of that tree was only their TRUST in God. There was great intimacy between Man and God then, God walked with Adam in the garden like a father walks with his child.
In so many ways the account of the Fall is an explanatory story about why we developed a sense of morality, a story that can't be told without the notions of 'right' and 'wrong,' even though Adam and Eve weren't familiar with those notions at first. But we, readers of that explanatory story, ARE and the story wouldn't make sense to us if it DIDN'T include those concepts. It's like you're watching a scary movie and you already know what's going to happen, but the character in the movie doesn't.

So Adam and Eve did wrong (by not trusting God and eating the fruit) but they didn't know they did wrong when they partook of the fruit? (If I understand you correctly?)

 

[nl]

We find all types of ancient writings but none of which involves evolution not until Darwin.

In the ancient world, they imagined gods and idols in the image of reptiles, birds and mammals. They evolved gods.

In the modern world, they have discarded gods as an explanation and instead imagined man to be formed from nature and lower forms of life.

In both situations, the general course of humanity has rejected notions of God as He truly is and of man as He truly is, made in a resemblance to God and accountable to God in fearsome judgment after a general resurrection.

In the ancient world, they imagined and evolved many gods in the likeness of the natural order. In the modern world, godless humanism has imagined man as evolved from many stages in the lower orders of nature but evolving ever higher. The glory of God has been rejected. The glory of man is pursued.

And instead of worshiping the glorious, ever-living God, they worshiped idols made to look like mere people and birds and animals and reptiles. - Romans 1:23 NLT

 

[nl]

I find the story a bit weird all around. Considering that the sin they commited was eating of a fruit that endowed them with the knowledge of good and evil (sin), and knowing that they had no concept of sin before eating it, as we saw when they all of a sudden realized that they were naked and shouldn't be, how could they even realize that it was wrong to eat the fruit?
I see it similar to this. You put a couple goats in a yard full of plants and tell them not to nibble on one specific bush. The goats , having no concept of right vs. wrong nibble on the bush anyway. You get angry at them even though you knew they would nibble on that bush because it was the greenest, healthiest looking bush in your yard, and even though the goats didn't know any better...

Adam and Eve knew enough. They could eat from every tree except one. God had been good to them and given them much. They had it good. And, they were smarter than goats.

There is no justification to assume that the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was the "greenest, healthiest looking bush" in the yard. They had access to the "tree of life" but no interest in that is indicated.

An analysis of what happened indicates lack of appreciation, lack of contentment, doubt, disbelief, resentment, treason and disloyalty against their Sponsor, contrariness to the Owner of the garden they lived in, law-breaking, disobedience.

And out of the ground the LORD God made every tree grow that is pleasant to the sight and good for food. The tree of life was also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. - Genesis 2:9

And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. - Revelation 22 (Last chapter of the Bible)

 

[Cycel]

I have a book, where is yours?

So you acknowledge that there is no human eyewitness to the events surrounding Adam and Eve in the garden? Thank you. We rest our case.

 

[JesusMyOnly]

So you acknowledge that there is no human eyewitness to the events surrounding Adam and Eve in the garden? Thank you. We rest our case.

*points to self* Am a time traveler. *shakes head yes*

 

[Cycel]

Adam and Eve knew enough. They could eat from every tree except one. God had been good to them and given them much. They had it good. And, they were smarter than goats.

A five year old is smarter than a goat too, but they are not discerning enough that they won't believe most anything you tell them.

 

[john832]

So you acknowledge that there is no human eyewitness to the events surrounding Adam and Eve in the garden? Thank you. We rest our case.

Got any witnesses to the dinos and the geologic column?

 

[nl]

The hominids they've found haven't yet been made public, but it sounds as if these remains are complete. We will just have to wait and see I suppose, but the old charge put forward here by creationists that the fossil evidence is incomplete and can't be trusted might lose all of its bite. Depends, I guess, on how old these remains are.

Skulls, knees, hips, location, supposed age will all be part of the evidence (or lack thereof).

 

[Cycel]

So you acknowledge that there is no human eyewitness to the events surrounding Adam and Eve in the garden? Thank you. We rest our case.

*points to self* Am a time traveler. *shakes head yes*

The events that are said to have transpired in the garden are not thought to have been written down for perhaps thousands of years after the events described. Much can happen in the retelling of an oral tradition in that long period of time: the addition of a talking snake for instance, or the exact words of God, for another.

 

[nl]

A five year old is smarter than a goat too, but they are not discerning enough that they won't believe most anything you tell them.

IMHO, faith in a young child is admirable. Jesus commended the faith of children.

All five year olds are not the same. By the time that I was five, much had already happened. My classmates in younger years in both public and private school settings were far from uniform in their perspectives and positions.

Yes, I had a measure of faith at a young age but my younger siblings did not have the same experience.

 

[Cycel]

Skulls, knees, hips, location, supposed age will all be part of the evidence (or lack thereof).

The whole dig is being captured digitally. I don't think there will be any question as to location of a bone. It will all be thoroughly documented. These remains are of hominids, which species I don't know, but it is a good guess they predate humans. We must wait for the report to know for sure.

 

[Cycel]

IMHO, faith in a young child is admirable. Jesus commended the faith of children.

So you said before, but I know for a fact you can make them believe almost anything.

Sorry, time for work. Must leave. Have a good day!

 

[nl]

So you said before, but I know for a fact you can make them believe almost anything.

Sorry, time for work. Must leave. Have a good day!

Have a good day!

 

[nl]

God gave the gift of the earth and universe. Adam and Eve rejected the Giver.

God so loved the world that He gave His Only Begotten Son, Jesus, the long-promised Messiah. Multitudes continue to reject God, the Greatest Giver, and Jesus, the Greatest Gift.

First, you may claim God gave Adam and Eve the universe, but you must mean it only figuratively, for you must admit they had no awareness of it as we do. It is not likely they even understood what the stars were. Probably for them the stars were only lights in the sky. Perhaps they were bonfires God lit at night. It would have meant nothing to them. Heaven was the home of the gods. It did not belong to them.

On the other point, I don't think Adam and Eve rejected God. They ate an apple (or perhaps it was a fig). Still, they were pretty naive, weren't they? Eve didn't seem to question the fact that she was talking with a snake. What's that about? Why was this all important tree not kept somewhere safe? God is all knowing, isn't he? Did he not know this was going to happen? So if he knew it would happen, and then punished them for doing what he knew they were going to do, is he not culpable in some way for setting them up for the fall? Adam and Eve were like very young children, it seems to me. Not until they ate the forbidden fruit did they gain greater awareness. Not until then did they become in God’s words like gods themselves.

I don't mind analysis but I would rather deal with what has been revealed about Adam and Eve (than with too much speculation).

When Adam and Eve accepted the words and person of the serpent, they rejected the Word and Person of God.

 

[nl]

By the way Nl, did you find out if this is a male hummingbird?

... I heard that the number of genes in birds controlling feather appearance has actually increased in domesticated birds..

It is a nice design on that hummingbird. I admire the Creator.

I don't know regarding this particular situation but it is known that male hummingbirds have brighter colors than female hummingbirds.

(Of course, the irreducible complexity of male and female differences is an argument for intelligent design. Both genders need to form fully and simultaneously. Otherwise, there would have been no next generation.)

What would cause the number of genes to increase in domesticated birds? What is the explanation for an increase and what is the creative force to assemble additional genetic information?

 

[AnnaBou]

The Bible is the word of God not an account passed down over tousands of years. But I always wonder how we know that the word of God was written down correctly and whether anything got in to the Bible that should not have or did not get in that should have. Plus I am still not sure whether it is all literal.

 

[nl]

The Bible is the word of God not an account passed down over tousands of years. But I always wonder how we know that the word of God was written down correctly...

The collection of 66 Bible books was assembled during the early centuries of the church with the help of leaders like Athanasius (circa 296-373 A.D.) and church councils.

+++

One of the evidences for the excellency of the Bible is its unity.


The Bible is composed of sixty-six books, thirty-nine in the Old Testament and twenty-seven in the New. Yet those sixty-six books form a cohesive whole, one dynamic message of God’s dealings with humankind.


Among the first books written were what we know as the Books of Moses or the Law (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy), composed around 1400 B.C.. The Book of Job may have been written even earlier.


The last of the New Testament was written around A.D. 90, and includes the writings of the apostle John (the Gospel of John, 1, 2, and 3 John, and Revelation).


These sixty-six books were composed by more than forty authors, from a variety of educational and cultural backgrounds. Joshua was a general; Daniel was a prime minister; Nehemiah was a court servant; Amos was a shepherd; Luke, a physician; Paul, a rabbi; and Peter and John were fishermen.


The books of the Bible were composed in a variety of places and cultures. Ezekiel wrote his work while a captive in Babylon. Paul wrote some of his letters from prison in Rome. David wrote some of his psalms while he was a fugitive in the wilderness. Jeremiah wrote while he was in a dungeon. The books were written on three continents: Africa, Asia, and Europe.


The Bible was composed in three languages. The Old Testament was written mostly in Hebrew, with a small part in Aramaic. The New Testament was in the common Greek of the day, Koine.


The unity of the teachings of the Bible is consistent from the beginning to the end. These teachings include the following:


• man—his origin, fall, redemption, earthly and eternal destiny
• sin—its beginning, consequences, punishment in this world and the next
• Satan—the instigator of evil, the liar and murderer from the beginning, his war against God and against believers, his final judgment
• Israel—her social and political development, idolatry, preservation, and final destiny
• the church—her history, from her establishment to her glorification
• salvation—its provision, according to the divine plan
• repentance, faith, the life of the believer, prayer, the service of God, etc.—subjects for infinitely rewarding study, carrying us through the entire Bible
• the Holy Spirit—present at creation, pronouncing the last prayer of the Bible (Genesis 1:2; Revelation 22:17)
• God—forever the same, in his sovereignty, his eternality, his spirituality, his omnipotence, his uniqueness, his omniscience, his omnipresence, his holiness, his righteousness, and his love
• Jesus Christ—the person par excellence of all the written revelation


Adapted from: McDowell, J. (1997). Josh McDowell’s handbook on apologetics (electronic ed.). Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson.

 

[Dan_473]

No. After some deliberation with one of my kids I decided I would fix salmon loaf for supper tonight. Are you proposing that Swiss steak was out of the question and that I was preordained to choose the meal I settled upon? Anything else was beyond my control? This thinking becomes a little silly don't you think? Hunger and tradition may be responsible for my decision to prepare a meal for the family tonight, but what I choose to fix is not predetermined.

Why are you interested in this discussion? Is this tied in with something you believe about God?

"Are you proposing that Swiss steak was out of the question and that I was preordained to choose the meal I settled upon?"

Yes. Given a deterministic universe, everything is 'preordained'. You may have had sensations, illusions, but the result was determined by a previous state.




"This thinking becomes a little silly don't you think?"

Not at all. The thinking is rational and scientific. If you don't agree, please give your reasons. Now, if you continue to give examples of 'decisions' that you've made, it doesn't alter anything, unless you can show that you were acting without the deterministic constraints of the rest of the universe.




"Why are you interested in this discussion?"

The implications are fascinating, especially for those who acknowledge only the physical world.




"Is this tied in with something you believe about God?"

For me, it's distantly related to God, yes, but lots of other great thoughts along the way...