Have the New Testament Charismatic gifts ceased?

[peacefulbeliever]

The problem with the New Testament gifts is that they only seem to come to people in certain denominations. This is most evident in the "gift of tongues" in that just about an entire congregation can be endowed with this gift in one church, and in the church across the street, amazingly no one has it. It's also a strange coincidence that these gifts have only began to reappear when the Pentecostal movement began in the early 1900s. In fact, between about 100 AD and 1900 AD, almost no one spoke in tongues. Now all of a sudden all you need to do is pull up to your nearest AoG church to find flocks of people with the gift.

If anyone did an in-depth historical study of Christianity and the charismatic movement, specifically involving the "gifts of the spirit" referred to in this topic, you would see the strong correlations that would hint to these gifts being man-made and not Spirit driven.

Actually what are being called "gifts" are the manifestation of the Spirit. Every born again believer is given the gift of holy spirit . . . it can lie dormant or it can be manifested. 1 Co. 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. Of this manifestation only one is referred to as a "gift" and that is the gift of healing, i.e. every healing is considered a gift. They are used to profit the believers . . . we profit from word of knowledge, word of wisdom, prophecy, discerning of spirits, etc.

 

[jb]

Have the New Testament Charismatic gifts ceased?

NO, CERTAINLY NOT!

You can find a bit of a study Here on the gifts of the Holy Spirit as listed in 1Cor 12v7-11...

Yahweh Shalom

 

[Bookends]

Jesus said see the works that I do and you shall do greater works

I believe the works we do is greater is because the Church has a much longer time period in which to do them, more of them will be done through the Church with Christ directing as the head.

 

[Bookends]

open thread for discussion on this topic

I think the gifts you are speaking were more condensed in the beginning of the Church, more miracles where done per period of time to jump start Christ's kingdom here on earth. Does this mean I think the gifts are obsolete, no, God can do anything He wants when He wants, He still heals, but not everybody and He still may want give a message to people to where His Holy Word is not prevalent. That said, Most of us have God's holy Word, in which case God uses that to speak to us and He uses us (Christians) to speak it to others. Most important of all, is that we demonstrated God love to one another. If God wishes to give me a gift, so be it, but I don't beg for them except for the ability to love others.

 

[evad]

I woud just ask this of you. A practicing Roman Catholic who is worshipprer of Mary,of the saints and participates in the blashphemy of the mass and yet speaks in tounges supposedly by theHoly Spirit and receieved as such by the Charasmatic churches. I wonder really why I make this post. I was at one time in a Charasmatic church, and did the things they did. Generally in these churches the degree of fraudelant and outrageous claims that are made, the control and manipulation by the leadership on their often very gullable congregations at times amounts to criminality, and that in the name of Christ.

 

[dcontroversal]

Maybe study the words below that apply unto the Charismatic Gifts...

1. SHALL FAIL
2. SHALL CEASE
3. SHALL VANISH AWAY

 

[jb]

I woud just ask this of you. A practicing Roman Catholic who is worshipprer of Mary,of the saints and participates in the blashphemy of the mass and yet speaks in tounges supposedly by theHoly Spirit and receieved as such by the Charasmatic churches...

Sir, art thou perhaps a sectarian bigot?

 

[Bookends]

Maybe study the words below that apply unto the Charismatic Gifts...

1. SHALL FAIL
2. SHALL CEASE
3. SHALL VANISH AWAY

But when?

10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.

There is a lot of debate on what "perfect" means among Christians. I personally think it's the eternal state, but that's just my opinion.

 

[dcontroversal]

But when?

10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.

There is a lot of debate on what "perfect" means among Christians. I personally think it's the eternal state, but that's just my opinion.

The charismatic gifts were there to substantiate the message and the messengers until the word of God was completed.....they ended with the last Apostle (JOHN) and the completion of Revelation........Joel's prophecy, which was dual in nature was fulfilled on the day of Pentecost and like the bible teaches.....in the end the beast and the false prophet will be able to works ALL types of LYING signs and wonders.......people who believe in miracles will fall hook line and sinker for those who come on the scene working miraculous signs and wonders.....

If they still existed then how come the hospitals and morgues are full....why do the supposed miracle workers wear glasses, why don't they go to the children's hospitals and cure all of the sick children and how come we don't see multitudes being raised from the dead.....why is it usually women speaking in so called tongues and last time I check it was more a gift of hearing as it was of tongues which means languages....

ONE man spoke and they heard in their OWN language......

I can go on and on...not to mention that the ONLY CHURH that had an issue was the Corinthian Church which was spiritually immature, had some 15-16 things wrong with it and Paul called it all childish...

Those who stand on these things state clearly that they are spiritually immature and yet babes and children in the gospel!

 

[peacefulbeliever]

The charismatic gifts were there to substantiate the message and the messengers until the word of God was completed.....they ended with the last Apostle (JOHN) and the completion of Revelation........Joel's prophecy, which was dual in nature was fulfilled on the day of Pentecost and like the bible teaches.....in the end the beast and the false prophet will be able to works ALL types of LYING signs and wonders.......people who believe in miracles will fall hook line and sinker for those who come on the scene working miraculous signs and wonders.....

If they still existed then how come the hospitals and morgues are full....why do the supposed miracle workers wear glasses, why don't they go to the children's hospitals and cure all of the sick children and how come we don't see multitudes being raised from the dead.....why is it usually women speaking in so called tongues and last time I check it was more a gift of hearing as it was of tongues which means languages....

ONE man spoke and they heard in their OWN language......

Gifts of healings and working of miracles still exist. But as you can see by the responses on this post and others regarding this subject; there is great skepticism, i.e. unbelief. I am not saying "no faith" but "doubt" in a person's heart and mind regarding them being healed; which equals unbelief that God still uses his children to pray for brothers and sisters to enjoy health. It takes the prayers of the righteous interceding for the sick then it is by God's grace and mercy to heal.
And he [Jesus] did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief. Matt. 13:58

I can go on and on...not to mention that the ONLY CHURH that had an issue was the Corinthian Church which was spiritually immature, had some 15-16 things wrong with it and Paul called it all childish...

Those who stand on these things state clearly that they are spiritually immature and yet babes and children in the gospel!

The church at Corinthians were mishandling the manifestation of the Spirit. God took three chapters 12,13,14 to go into these spiritual matters and the manifestation and the proper usage - must be pretty important to Him.

As for 1 Corinthians 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

This is the figure of speech epistrophe - the repetition of a word or words at the end of successive clauses or sentences. This figure of speech used here by God is to place emphasis on "child" - we are all just "children" seeing things unclearly until Jesus comes again, at which point we will be mature [man].

Examples of epistrophe: Lincoln's Gettysburg Address - " . . . the government of the people, by the people, and for the people, shall not perish from the earth." - emphasis on "people".

A Tale of Two Cities - "It was the best of times, it was the worst of times. . . " - emphasis on "times"

Deut. 32:10 He found him in a desert land, and in the waste howling wilderness; he led him about, he instructed him, he kept him as the apple of his eye. - emphasizing God's special care over Jacob

[Information concerning the specific figure of speech epistrophe from Figures of Speech used in the Bible; E.W. Bullinger]

 

[dcontroversal]

Gifts of healings and working of miracles still exist. But as you can see by the responses on this post and others regarding this subject; there is great skepticism, i.e. unbelief. I am not saying "no faith" but "doubt" in a person's heart and mind regarding them being healed; which equals unbelief that God still uses his children to pray for brothers and sisters to enjoy health. It takes the prayers of the righteous interceding for the sick then it is by God's grace and mercy to heal.
And he [Jesus] did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief. Matt. 13:58

The church at Corinthians were mishandling the manifestation of the Spirit. God took three chapters 12,13,14 to go into these spiritual matters and the manifestation and the proper usage - must be pretty important to Him.

As for 1 Corinthians 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

This is the figure of speech epistrophe - the repetition of a word or words at the end of successive clauses or sentences. This figure of speech used here by God is to place emphasis on "child" - we are all just "children" seeing things unclearly until Jesus comes again, at which point we will be mature [man].

Examples of epistrophe: Lincoln's Gettysburg Address - " . . . the government of the people, by the people, and for the people, shall not perish from the earth." - emphasis on "people".

A Tale of Two Cities - "It was the best of times, it was the worst of times. . . " - emphasis on "times"

Deut. 32:10 He found him in a desert land, and in the waste howling wilderness; he led him about, he instructed him, he kept him as the apple of his eye. - emphasizing God's special care over Jacob

[Information concerning the specific figure of speech epistrophe from Figures of Speech used in the Bible; E.W. Bullinger]

Paul said the following about the gifts and clearly stated that NOW ABIDES FAITH, HOPE and LOVE!

Originally Posted by dcontroversal Maybe study the words below that apply unto the Charismatic Gifts...

1. SHALL FAIL
2. SHALL CEASE
3. SHALL VANISH AWAY

 

[AtonedFor]

... the church across the street doe's not have it is simply because they do not believe it.

It's all about UNBELIEF.

And the sad thing is ... Christians think they have none!

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Paul said the following about the gifts and clearly stated that NOW ABIDES FAITH, HOPE and LOVE!

Originally Posted by dcontroversal Maybe study the words below that apply unto the Charismatic Gifts...

1. SHALL FAIL
2. SHALL CEASE
3. SHALL VANISH AWAY

Charity [love - agape - God's love] never faileth: but whether there be prophesies [manifestation of the Spirit], they shall fail; whether there be tongues [manifestation of the Spirit], they shall cease; whether there be knowledge [word of knowledge - manifestation of the Spirit], it shall vanish away.

For we know in part . . . not fully [as a child]
But when that which is perfect is come - the question seems to lie in this: "what/who is perfect that is to come"? - wherein we will no longer need to manifest "a word of knowledge" nor manifest "prophecy", nor manifest "speaking in tongues" - therefore "that which is in part shall be done away"
We were all just children seeing things unclearly - "through a glass darkly but then face to face" - then we shall know even as we are also know - Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. - and then we shall know even as we are known.

We need to take into consideration that in all this, it is also said "word of knowledge" vanishes away - I rely on God to help me in my understanding, to help me in certain situations, to lead me and guide me - How can this been done without hearing from him, i.e. word of knowledge together with word of wisdom [how to apply that knowledge]?

Love ya, dcon - just stating my understanding . . .

 

[ForthAngel]

Gifts of healings and working of miracles still exist. But as you can see by the responses on this post and others regarding this subject; there is great skepticism, i.e. unbelief. I am not saying "no faith" but "doubt" in a person's heart and mind regarding them being healed; which equals unbelief that God still uses his children to pray for brothers and sisters to enjoy health. It takes the prayers of the righteous interceding for the sick then it is by God's grace and mercy to heal.

Herein lies the problem now doesn't it. How sad for these people flocking to the "faith healers" who go to their grave following these people around desperately wanting healing and are never taken on stage. Or those who are taken on stage, just to have a true faith SHATTERED by liars when their temporary emotional high wears off and their sickness returns. How cruel to propagate such actions in the name of God and to turn around and tell those who are dying of illness that they are in unbelief and doubt. Thousands die truly believing they can be healed.

Why are these healers not emptying hospitals? Better yet, why are they not emptying graves??

You can try and cloak what you are trying to say by replacing "you are faithless" with "there is doubt", but physical healing isn't what the Gospel is about, it's spiritual, and this false doctrine of health and wealth opposes the true Gospel and damages true faith and WRECKS lives. Here is a real saving faith and how we acquire it:

Romans 10:17
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

John 20:29
29 Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

And for those who actually don't believe but are looking for an outward sign of evidence or some type of "experience with God":

Matthew 16:4
4 An evil and adulterous generation seeks for a sign, but no sign will be given to it except the sign of Jonah.” So he left them and departed.

 

[Bookends]

The charismatic gifts were there to substantiate the message and the messengers until the word of God was completed.....they ended with the last Apostle (JOHN) and the completion of Revelation........Joel's prophecy, which was dual in nature was fulfilled on the day of Pentecost and like the bible teaches.....in the end the beast and the false prophet will be able to works ALL types of LYING signs and wonders.......people who believe in miracles will fall hook line and sinker for those who come on the scene working miraculous signs and wonders.....

If they still existed then how come the hospitals and morgues are full....why do the supposed miracle workers wear glasses, why don't they go to the children's hospitals and cure all of the sick children and how come we don't see multitudes being raised from the dead.....why is it usually women speaking in so called tongues and last time I check it was more a gift of hearing as it was of tongues which means languages....

ONE man spoke and they heard in their OWN language......

I can go on and on...not to mention that the ONLY CHURH that had an issue was the Corinthian Church which was spiritually immature, had some 15-16 things wrong with it and Paul called it all childish...

Those who stand on these things state clearly that they are spiritually immature and yet babes and children in the gospel!

Sounds like a bunch of opinion to me.

 

[Bookends]

Herein lies the problem now doesn't it. How sad for these people flocking to the "faith healers" who go to their grave following these people around desperately wanting healing and are never taken on stage. Or those who are taken on stage, just to have a true faith SHATTERED by liars when their temporary emotional high wears off and their sickness returns. How cruel to propagate such actions in the name of God and to turn around and tell those who are dying of illness that they are in unbelief and doubt. Thousands die truly believing they can be healed.

Why are these healers not emptying hospitals? Better yet, why are they not emptying graves??

You can try and cloak what you are trying to say by replacing "you are faithless" with "there is doubt", but physical healing isn't what the Gospel is about, it's spiritual, and this false doctrine of health and wealth opposes the true Gospel and damages true faith and WRECKS lives. Here is a real saving faith and how we acquire it:

Romans 10:17
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

John 20:29
29 Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

And for those who actually don't believe but are looking for an outward sign of evidence or some type of "experience with God":

Matthew 16:4
4 An evil and adulterous generation seeks for a sign, but no sign will be given to it except the sign of Jonah.” So he left them and departed.

You don't hear about people being healed from physical problems today? I sure do, and I'm talking about those fake healers like Benny Hinn or those in the word of faith movement. But I still do hear some testimonials of people being healed... I don't believe in a particular man or men running round healing whom ever they contact, as if that's their calling, but I do believe the gift of healing is given to some at particular times for particular circumstances.

 

[notuptome]

This is a multi layered argument. Have the three gifts of 1 Cor 13:8 ceased? Yes. The rest of the gifts have not but nobody pays attention to what the Holy Spirit is doing only what God has said He is not doing.

The only gifts that are coveted by the modern church are the one which have ceased. These gifts were and are for Israel not for Gentiles. Read Joel which is written the Israel and it is clear that these sign gifts are for Israel.

The problem is that none of the charismatic or Pentecostal churches could survive without these gifts. Their preaching ministry will not retain the congregations. Their music programs will only hold them for a limited time. The underlying problem is that the gifts have prominence and not Christ.

Yes folks the diabolical one is counterfeiting the sign gifts in the church today. There is much confusion created by these counterfeit signs. It is an emotional issue and it is almost impossible to have a biblical discussion with many who are completely captivated by this phenomenon.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[ForthAngel]

You don't hear about people being healed from physical problems today? I sure do, and I'm talking about those fake healers like Benny Hinn or those in the word of faith movement. But I still do hear some testimonials of people being healed... I don't believe in a particular man or men running round healing whom ever they contact, as if that's their calling, but I do believe the gift of healing is given to some at particular times for particular circumstances.

I believe in God's providence and his ability to do miracles. I hear tons of stories of people being healed. In the history of the modern church, I don't think one single miracle has actually been confirmed though. I don't oppose the gifts, don't get me wrong. But compare these cases to biblical cases. We simply don't see legitimately crippled people instantaneously healed, or someone missing a limb miraculously regrowing it. There is only endless story after endless story, never with a confirmation.

That's not to say that in some remote places, as you suggested before, God hasn't wrought miracles. The americanized "I have some minor back pain and got HEALED, IT'S A MIRACLE" is a vanity too deep for expression though, in my opinion. Giving thanks for the relief, great. But a miracle? Come on.

Does God still heal? Sure. Through prayer and natural means paired with medical treatment as per his divine willing, or willing against. Unfortunately, any biblical type miracles we hear about is some unconfirmed case, usually propagated by the Benny Hinn's of the world and there is never evidence to prove it. I don't see asking for evidence of a bonafide miracle being out of the question, since we are commanded to test all things, whether they are good and from God. Can't do this with constant here-say.

Surely in our digital age someone somewhere would have undeniable evidence of a bonafide miracle?

 

[RickyZ]

Herein lies the problem now doesn't it. How sad for these people flocking to the "faith healers" who go to their grave following these people around desperately wanting healing and are never taken on stage. Or those who are taken on stage, just to have a true faith SHATTERED by liars when their temporary emotional high wears off and their sickness returns. How cruel to propagate such actions in the name of God and to turn around and tell those who are dying of illness that they are in unbelief and doubt. Thousands die truly believing they can be healed.

Why are these healers not emptying hospitals? Better yet, why are they not emptying graves??

You can try and cloak what you are trying to say by replacing "you are faithless" with "there is doubt", but physical healing isn't what the Gospel is about, it's spiritual, and this false doctrine of health and wealth opposes the true Gospel and damages true faith and WRECKS lives. Here is a real saving faith and how we acquire it:

Romans 10:17
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

John 20:29
29 Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

And for those who actually don't believe but are looking for an outward sign of evidence or some type of "experience with God":

Matthew 16:4
4 An evil and adulterous generation seeks for a sign, but no sign will be given to it except the sign of Jonah.” So he left them and departed.

Show me where Jesus ever emptied a hospital.

 

[RickyZ]

I believe in God's providence and his ability to do miracles. I hear tons of stories of people being healed. In the history of the modern church, I don't think one single miracle has actually been confirmed though. I don't oppose the gifts, don't get me wrong. But compare these cases to biblical cases. We simply don't see legitimately crippled people instantaneously healed, or someone missing a limb miraculously regrowing it. There is only endless story after endless story, never with a confirmation.

That's not to say that in some remote places, as you suggested before, God hasn't wrought miracles. The americanized "I have some minor back pain and got HEALED, IT'S A MIRACLE" is a vanity too deep for expression though, in my opinion. Giving thanks for the relief, great. But a miracle? Come on.

Does God still heal? Sure. Through prayer and natural means paired with medical treatment as per his divine willing, or willing against. Unfortunately, any biblical type miracles we hear about is some unconfirmed case, usually propagated by the Benny Hinn's of the world and there is never evidence to prove it. I don't see asking for evidence of a bonafide miracle being out of the question, since we are commanded to test all things, whether they are good and from God. Can't do this with constant here-say.

Surely in our digital age someone somewhere would have undeniable evidence of a bonafide miracle?

http://christianchat.com/blogs/rickyz/4349-beach-incident.html