Have the New Testament Charismatic gifts ceased?

[The_highwayman]

When will you love Christ more than tongues? When will you love Christ more than healings? When will you wonder how Christ could love a sinner condemned and unclean enough to die in his place?

Only three sign gifts have ceased but they are the ones most coveted by superficial Christians.

What must God do for you to allow Christ to minister in your heart? Mark 10 Jesus came to be ministered unto but to minister.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Roger, I never said those things YOU DID, so please stop diverting and assuming things and throwing out nonsense about others and answer the question. I am not superficial in the least, I know my position in Christ.

I love the gift giver, not the gifts....

So stop delaying and diverting and tell us how Jesus did what he did here on earth.

How can a guy like you claim to believe all the Bible yet throw out parts of it.

 

[RickyZ]

Wow Roger. I didn't realize you were so lost and confused. How can you not understand God's compassion for this world? How can you not understand that it is the taking away of the gifts that takes away from Christ? How can you not understand how twisted your priorities are? The real suffering is in the next world? Praying for you buddy. Praying hard that your eyes be opened.

 

[Yet]

Is this gift of discernment something that was revealed to you, or can you quote a verse in the bible that actually says this? I can't remember ever reading that discernment was ever a gift of the Spirit. I could see 2 sincere Christians claim to have discernment and disagree on some issues as far was the east is from the west.

1Cor. 12:10

 

[notuptome]

Wow Roger. I didn't realize you were so lost and confused. How can you not understand God's compassion for this world? How can you not understand that it is the taking away of the gifts that takes away from Christ? How can you not understand how twisted your priorities are? The real suffering is in the next world? Praying for you buddy. Praying hard that your eyes be opened.

Jesus taught that it is better to enter into the kingdom of God halt, lame, than to be whole and be cast into hell. I'm not confused or lost. Jesus came to die for sinners that they might have full atonement and eternal life.

Through suffering we learn to love the Lord more than any other time. I should think a man of your stature should already know this.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

Roger, I never said those things YOU DID, so please stop diverting and assuming things and throwing out nonsense about others and answer the question. I am not superficial in the least, I know my position in Christ.

I love the gift giver, not the gifts....

So stop delaying and diverting and tell us how Jesus did what he did here on earth.

How can a guy like you claim to believe all the Bible yet throw out parts of it.

Jesus came to minister unto souls that were lost in sin. Mark 10

You are not demonstrating any depth but you are avoiding the truth about suffering.

The physical body is of little significance but the soul is eternal. History is replete with suffering saints having a witness for Christ by the way they suffered. Why do you fear to walk where Christ has walked?

Like Jesus said to His disciples I have bread to eat of that you know not of.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[The_highwayman]

Jesus taught that it is better to enter into the kingdom of God halt, lame, than to be whole and be cast into hell. I'm not confused or lost. Jesus came to die for sinners that they might have full atonement and eternal life.

Through suffering we learn to love the Lord more than any other time. I should think a man of your stature should already know this.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Your suffering for Christ is a form of self-righteousness, not about persecution which Jesus and the Apostle Paul or the other Apostles wrote about and suffered through.

Jesus suffered for all of man kind, so you could have 2 gifts, the gift of salvation and the gift of righteousness.

Anything that adds to Jesus suffering on the cross, including your own self imposed suffering is self-righteousness and is filthy rags.

 

[RickyZ]

Jesus taught that it is better to enter into the kingdom of God halt, lame, than to be whole and be cast into hell. I'm not confused or lost. Jesus came to die for sinners that they might have full atonement and eternal life.

Through suffering we learn to love the Lord more than any other time. I should think a man of your stature should already know this.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I do. I also know it's time for you to know a little more. Your understanding is extremely limited and faulty my friend. Not just in your responses to me. From the lot of them, it's easy to tell that you are working with an incredibly faulty understanding. And not just about the gifts.

Take a cue from one of my mottos. No matter how much you think you know, today is not the day to stop learning.

Hopefully today will be the day you start again.

 

[Stephen63]

Not for those who are immature, scriptural juveniles, so to speak.

I'd be careful speaking such phrases.....They speak against the children..... therefore they speak against the Father of those children.

Those that speak against the gifts of the Spirit have no definitive, factual evidence that they have ceased, except the many years the church existed without them.

But..... when you look at those years......the majority of them being catholic, then the protestant reformation, with errors galore, still keeping traditions from the very group they broke away from.....

And now.... today, in the last of the last days, when universalism is rearing its ugly head, the catholic church is trying to pull anglicans, lutherans, & muslims together...... I hear with my own ears that that which is perfect has come & the church needs no spiritual help..... Sounds like a good time to sell a bridge to me.

Their only scriptural argument is this scripture, taken out of context:
1 Corinthians 13:8-13 Nasb 8 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of [a]prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away.9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part;10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.11 When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I [b]became a man, I did away with childish things.12 For now we see in a mirror [c]dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.13 But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the [d]greatest of these is love.

Now, those against the gifts will say that "when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away " means the completion of the canon will take away the need for these gifts.

Has anybody noticed that everyone on both sides of this argument, including myself, doesn't fully know everything yet? (v12)

Has anybody noticed that everyone on both sides of this argument, including myself, that none of us are fully known by anyone else here? (v12)

How come "the perfect" isn't showing up in our witness? Our knowledge? Our attitudes? Obviously no one here, including myself shows anything near "the perfect" yet.

Are these scriptures still true?

Proverbs 11:14 Nas
Where there is no guidance the people fall, But in abundance of counselors there is victory.

Proverbs 15:22
Without consultation, plans are frustrated, But with many counselors they succeed.

Proverbs teaches that the more good counselors you have, the better off you are. Yet the one group of counselors we could receive good instruction from isn't considered...... commentaries.

You see, I've participated in several of these threads about spiritual gifts, quoting commentaries of old & new, of different denominations that agree that this scripture speaks only to the end of time when we are with Jesus face to face. It has nothing to do with the completion of the canon. Most of the commentaries I used were written before the Pentecostal revival of the early 1900's.

Do you want to know what some of the replies of the naysayers were? I don't need commentaries! I wish I were that smart.
Others never answered my posts at all.....

BTW, someone made the point that the "knowledge will be done away with" part would be ridiculous because we need it..... good point, especially when Daniel prophesies that in the last days knowledge will increase.

The Bible says Jesus left us an example, that we should follow His steps...... How in the world can we even consider such a thing without the power of the Holy Spirit working in our lives to accomplish this? How can we do "greater works" when people are trying to teach us those gifts no longer exist?

I challenge those that don't believe it to prove it...... No opinions. No arguments. Just prove it.

In these days we shouldn't believe anything without chapter & verse. It's just plain dangerous & foolhardy to do so. If the New Testament says it, then it's true, whether we believe it or not.

 

[Kerry]

Ceased, what has ceased your faith or God's word. What you have been taught or what is real. Many will teach that the gifts have ceased because they don't have them nor believe in them.

 

[kaylagrl]

Depending on the church you attend your opinion of this will be different.I know the gift of tongues to be real and for today.I really dont care what others opinions are.I have a story to relate on this...

My parents have a friend who is Lebanese I believe that is right.Anyhow he came to Canada not knowing hardly any English.He wasnt a Christian.Then one Sunday he was walking down the street and passed a church.Suddenly he stopped.In his own language someone was telling him how to get saved!! He listened and then went into the church.He found the pastor and managed to ask if he could speak to the Lebanese lady who told him how to get saved.There was no one of that nationality there,the lady was speaking in tongues.That man got saved,became a pastor of a church that now has about a thousand people attending.I heard his story often and then one year our family gospel group were invited to sing at his church.I met the man in person and boy can he preach! So the answer is yes,the gifts are for today.Dont let anyone tell you different for they will try to.

 

[notuptome]

Your suffering for Christ is a form of self-righteousness, not about persecution which Jesus and the Apostle Paul or the other Apostles wrote about and suffered through.

Jesus suffered for all of man kind, so you could have 2 gifts, the gift of salvation and the gift of righteousness.

Anything that adds to Jesus suffering on the cross, including your own self imposed suffering is self-righteousness and is filthy rags.

Give me a break. If you become infirmed will you cease to be a believer in Christ? It is likely that you will have an infirmity at sometime in your life that God will not take away. One that comes to mind is old age. You had best develop an appreciation for the old folks for if God is merciful you will become one. Observe how elder saints of God suffer for His glory. Not self righteous but humble and allowing God to use their weaknesses for His glory.

Charismatics are a million miles wide and not one inch deep.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[kaylagrl]

Give me a break. If you become infirmed will you cease to be a believer in Christ? It is likely that you will have an infirmity at sometime in your life that God will not take away. One that comes to mind is old age. You had best develop an appreciation for the old folks for if God is merciful you will become one. Observe how elder saints of God suffer for His glory. Not self righteous but humble and allowing God to use their weaknesses for His glory.

Charismatics are a million miles wide and not one inch deep.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Please dont lump everyone together I'm from a Pentecostal background and I can tell you I have some wonderful Christians in my family.My grandmother was very deep and a writer and I hope one day to have her thoughts published. Please dont generalize.

 

[kaylagrl]

Give me a break. If you become infirmed will you cease to be a believer in Christ? It is likely that you will have an infirmity at sometime in your life that God will not take away. One that comes to mind is old age. You had best develop an appreciation for the old folks for if God is merciful you will become one. Observe how elder saints of God suffer for His glory. Not self righteous but humble and allowing God to use their weaknesses for His glory.

Charismatics are a million miles wide and not one inch deep.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

jesus never said no.Never did he refuse or fail to heal anyone.It is His will to heal.Im not God, there are different reasons people arent healed but it is His will for us to be healed.He never said no.

 

[notuptome]

I do. I also know it's time for you to know a little more. Your understanding is extremely limited and faulty my friend. Not just in your responses to me. From the lot of them, it's easy to tell that you are working with an incredibly faulty understanding. And not just about the gifts.

Take a cue from one of my mottos. No matter how much you think you know, today is not the day to stop learning.

Hopefully today will be the day you start again.

And with the getting get understanding. I do know that you cannot find purity in any place where the Lord is absent. I know that God does not work outside His word. I'm all for being open but like an open window it is best to have a screen on it or the bugs will doubtless come. The screen is Gods word.

I always wonder if the church of today would exist if it had nothing but a man anointed of God to minister the word to the assembly. No music, no AC, not even a pew to sit on, just a man with a bible and the Holy Spirit to minister the word of God. Would folks,if souls were being saved and believers discipled, assemble together and rejoice in their hearts at the presence of God? Strip away all the glitz and glamor and all that is there is the Lord would folks be thankful and rejoice?

The modern church is more Hollywood than heavenly. It isn't right.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

jesus never said no.Never did he refuse or fail to heal anyone.It is His will to heal.Im not God, there are different reasons people arent healed but it is His will for us to be healed.He never said no.

Wrong. Paul asked three times to be healed and was to no.

God has said that the death of His saints is precious in His sight. The wicked are not so.

I'm all for compassion but there is much to be done for God in suffering. I do not think anybody prays to be infirmed but many have given the infirmity over to God to use as god sees fit.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Mitspa]

jesus never said no.Never did he refuse or fail to heal anyone.It is His will to heal.Im not God, there are different reasons people arent healed but it is His will for us to be healed.He never said no.

The only people He did not or could not heal was those "who thought they knew Him" but really didn't...or those who had no faith. Jesus NEVER changes...He is always the Healer and HE has already paid the price for us to be healed, it just takes a level of faith to enter into these things.

 

[kaylagrl]

Wrong. Paul asked three times to be healed and was to no.

God has said that the death of His saints is precious in His sight. The wicked are not so.

I'm all for compassion but there is much to be done for God in suffering. I do not think anybody prays to be infirmed but many have given the infirmity over to God to use as god sees fit.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Paul had a thorn in the flesh,we dont know what that was,sickness or something else. And Paul said it was given to him to keep him humble.Are we such spiritual giants that God has to humble us with a thorn in the flesh? Doubt it.Either way Paul said why he wasn't relieved of the thorn.That is specific to Paul and his circumstances not to every Christian.Of course God can be glorified in any situation but Gods will is always to heal.

 

[notuptome]

Please dont lump everyone together I'm from a Pentecostal background and I can tell you I have some wonderful Christians in my family.My grandmother was very deep and a writer and I hope one day to have her thoughts published. Please dont generalize.

The Pentecostals of decades ago are not the Pentecostals of today. The holiness if long gone.

As a little boy, and I was one a long time ago, if you go out and play with the dogs don't be surprised when you get fleas. With whom we associate ourselves is important for it gives others expectations about our conduct.

No offense to your grandmother but the Pentecostals of today are not the Pentecostals of her day.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Mitspa]

So the promises of suffering for Christ are real but the promises of healing have passed away?

 

[peacefulbeliever]

The knowledge referred to in 1 Cor 13:8 is supernatural knowledge given to fishermen to contend with the great lawyers of their day without ever going to the schools of higher education.

The church is powerless because men covet power that is not theirs to possess. There are very few hearts inn which the Holy Spirit can minister. So many think they can minister in their own strength and fail to see that apart from Christ they can only serve themselves.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

In the context of chapter 12-14: Speaking of spiritual matters or things of the Spirit pneumatikos - prophesies in 13:8 is a manifestation of the Spirit, tongues is a manifestation of the Spirit and so knowledge would be in the same category as in word of knowledge -a manifestation of the Spirit.

The "church" operates through the holy Spirit that dwells in each member - the gift of holy spirit is ours to operate and is given to us by the holy Spirit. When I speak of the manifestation of the Spirit - it is definitely nothing of my own but what God has given to those who are indwelt by the Holy Spirit and is definitely not "apart from Christ" and are not used to serve one self but to edify the body of Christ.