The doctrine I don't want to believe-eternal fire

[Butch5]

I have addressed the meaning of the Greek appolumi ("destroyed"), which does not mean annihilation or loss of being, here,
and have presented the abundant Biblical teaching on immortality of the human spirit here and here.

Yes, their natural bodies died, but not their spirits, as is seen in the Biblical teaching I have linked above.

Yes, in 1Co 15 Paul is discussing the kind of body we will have at the resurrection.
We will put on immortality of the body at the resurrection.
​

Hi Elin,

Where is there Biblical teaching on the immortality of the human spirit? From what you've posted it appears to me that it is your interpretation of those passages that you are presenting as Biblical teaching. One's interpretation is an interpretation, Biblical teaching is stated plainly in the Scriptures and I don't see anything in Scripture that states that man is an immortal spirit.

 

[Word_Swordsman]

After I read some of post on this topic, seem to me some people doesn't believe that hell is eternal.

The reason is there is verse said people will punish according to their deeds.

I believe hell is eternal. people will punish according to their deeds can mean some are punish severely some are light but all punishment are eternal.

I agree. It is troublesome that some people discover Greek tools, finding sometimes dozens of English words from one. The translators took into consideration the context of the verse, as related to adjoining verses, then conforming to the general passage context, then fitting a proper translation in English to all other related doctrines of that subject throughout the Bible. That way an uneducated translator can present doctrines that conflict rather than compliment.

That's why too many doctrines arise about any one topic. Some folks pick and choose the English translation word they feel more comfortable with without considering the overall message. Using the same Greek some like the idea of eternal life with the Lord being literally forever without end, but Hell, death, the grave, and the lake burning with fire and brimstone is by the same Greek word temporary, with either an unbiblical restoration or annihilation at the end of the punishment period.

It must be one or the other. If the saints live in glory without end, then it would be necessary for Satan and Hitler to be restored to come in among us without repentance. There is nothing in the Bible teaching that is possible. Satan's end is left endless, eternal, for ever, age to age, Gr. aiwna used in the proper exegesis. Sorry, the supplier doesn't allow sharing the actual Greek letters.

It took me two semesters to barely scratch the surface of the rules of Greek grammar so as not to abuse it. Unfortunately that was 32 years ago, so it's once again more difficult than ought to be. Much error comes from leaning too heavily on websites that are biased with denominational doctrine. A favorite easy to use resource of mine is free at Scripture4All - Greek/Hebrew interlinear Bible software
titled "Greek / Hebrew interlinear Bible software. I use several, most purchased through university stores, which are copyrighted, can't be shared over the internet. I reword from those to stay legal. If what you use doesn't require purchase or downloading, chances are it is biased in favor of some Christian denomination or even an anti-Christian supplier.

 

[Word_Swordsman]

Hi Elin,

Where is there Biblical teaching on the immortality of the human spirit? From what you've posted it appears to me that it is your interpretation of those passages that you are presenting as Biblical teaching. One's interpretation is an interpretation, Biblical teaching is stated plainly in the Scriptures and I don't see anything in Scripture that states that man is an immortal spirit.

There is basis for that. Ecclesiastes 12:5-7 (KJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Also when they shall be afraid of that which is high, and fears shall be in the way, and the almond tree shall flourish, and the grasshopper shall be a burden, and desire shall fail: because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets:
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

If you say that is of a sinner king, then that would make you a fool defying the wisdom of God, so let's not go there.

The body rots in the grave, the God-like spirit and soul are held in store by God. Each person born on earth then are held in spirit by God in one of two places. The redeemed are held over in Heaven, while the lost are held over in Hell. At the judgment all will be resurrected in their immortal bodies to which that immortal spirit will be restored, stood on their feet before Almighty God. In order for anyone to be resurrected, something about them must be beyond the grasp of death, what the Bible teaches as eternal life or death. Whichever applies is our choice while in the mortal flesh body. Ah, even the atheist and the Jehovah's Witness will experience that. To the atheist He will point to Himself on that throne. To the JW He will point to His Son on the other eternal throne. I will not pray for either.

 

[Butch5]

I agree. It is troublesome that some people discover Greek tools, finding sometimes dozens of English words from one. The translators took into consideration the context of the verse, as related to adjoining verses, then conforming to the general passage context, then fitting a proper translation in English to all other related doctrines of that subject throughout the Bible. That way an uneducated translator can present doctrines that conflict rather than compliment.

That's why too many doctrines arise about any one topic. Some folks pick and choose the English translation word they feel more comfortable with without considering the overall message. Using the same Greek some like the idea of eternal life with the Lord being literally forever without end, but Hell, death, the grave, and the lake burning with fire and brimstone is by the same Greek word temporary, with either an unbiblical restoration or annihilation at the end of the punishment period.

It must be one or the other. If the saints live in glory without end, then it would be necessary for Satan and Hitler to be restored to come in among us without repentance. There is nothing in the Bible teaching that is possible. Satan's end is left endless, eternal, for ever, age to age, Gr. aiwna used in the proper exegesis. Sorry, the supplier doesn't allow sharing the actual Greek letters.

It took me two semesters to barely scratch the surface of the rules of Greek grammar so as not to abuse it. Unfortunately that was 32 years ago, so it's once again more difficult than ought to be. Much error comes from leaning too heavily on websites that are biased with denominational doctrine. A favorite easy to use resource of mine is free at Scripture4All - Greek/Hebrew interlinear Bible software
titled "Greek / Hebrew interlinear Bible software. I use several, most purchased through university stores, which are copyrighted, can't be shared over the internet. I reword from those to stay legal. If what you use doesn't require purchase or downloading, chances are it is biased in favor of some Christian denomination or even an anti-Christian supplier.

Hi WS,

I agree with you that we have to be consistent. If owlam and aionios meant eternal then it means eternal both ways and if not then it is not eternal both ways. However, I disagree with the conclusion you've drawn, that being that if the torment isn't forever then neither is the kingdom. I submit that owlam and aionios do not mean eternal, however, that doesn't mean that the believer doesn't have eternal life. You see, we don't need to use the words owlam or aionios life to show that the believer lives forever. So even though aionios doesn't mean forever, we know the believer will live forever because of statements in the Scriptures such as Jesus' words in Luke.

34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:
35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.
(Luk 20:34-36 KJV)

According to Jesus the children of the resurrection die no more. That is eternal life, they die no more. So, we don't need aionios to mean eternal to show that believers have eternal life.

 

[CRC]

Consider for a moment God’s law about a working bull: “You must not muzzle a bull while it is threshing.” (Deuteronomy 25:4) This law reflected God’s compassionate concern and care for unreasoning animals. The bull was not to be tormented by being forcibly prevented from satisfying its desire to feed on some of the grain it was threshing.
Far greater is God’s concern and love for humankind than for the unreasoning animals. As Jesus Christ reminded his disciples: “Five sparrows sell for two coins of small value, do they not? Yet not one of them goes forgotten before God. But even the hairs of your heads are all numbered. Have no fear; you are worth more than many sparrows.”—Luke 12:6, 7.
Would it not be totally inconsistent, then, for anyone to claim that a God with such tender feelings would literally torment some humans for all eternity? Who of us would want to see someone undergoing the most horrible torture for even an hour? Is it not true that only fiendish persons would delight in seeing others suffer? Does not our inward sense of love and justice go into a state of revolt when we hear that a father tortured his child nearly to the point of death for some act of disobedience? Regardless of how bad the child may have been, we find it impossible to have any tender feelings for such a father. Being made in God’s image makes such a thought unthinkable!!

 

[Elin]

I have addressed the meaning of the
Greek appolumi ("destroyed"), which does not mean annihilation or loss of being, here,
and have presented the abundant Biblical teaching on immortality of the human spirit here and here.

Hi Elin,

Where is there Biblical teaching on the immortality of the human spirit? From what you've posted it appears to me that it is your interpretation of those passages that you are presenting as Biblical teaching. One's interpretation is an interpretation,

Hi, Butch,

Perhaps you would like to address the Biblical teaching presented in the last link above, demonstrating your claim therein.
(The typo there is corrected in the post following it.)

Biblical teaching is stated plainly in the Scriptures and
I don't see anything in Scripture that states that man is an immortal spirit.

Do you mean a specific declarative statement?

Well, there are likewise no specific declarative statements that
God is sovereign, or that
God is Trinity, or that
believers are in a personal relationship with God,

but all are clearly taught all over Scripture, as is immortality of the human spirit,
shown in the three links in my post above.

 

[veryelect]

So as any true person who studies scripture and desires to know and the learn the truth from God you have to be open minded and be a teachable child and have to be willing to not just throw down what you thought you knew but be willing to accept what you don't want to believe.

The debate on eternal damnation has popped up here and there lately, many say that a loving father such as God would never make someone suffer for eternity. I myself did not want to believe this and I still don't, I do not wish that any person would have to endure the fires of all for all eternity but I also understand that just because I don't want to believe it just because it doesn't seem right or fair to me doesn't matter for out thoughts are not his thoughts and he is a righteous and fair God.

True enough he is a very loving father but he is not a tame God he does have a righteous anger and judgement. He is not a teddy bear and is to be feared as well as adored. I was reading mathew today not even sure what I was looking for when I came across mathew 25:45-46 which states: then he will answer them saying assuredly I say to you in as much as you did not do it unto the least of these you did not do it to me and these will go away into everlasting punishment but the righteous into eternal life. The word everlasting caught my attention and I said to myself well the nkjv says everlasting I wonder what the niv says? and the niv said eternal and the new living translation also says eternal. but I never make my interpretation from one scripture alone so I searched the rest of the word and here is what I found concerning the matter.

Daniel 12:1-2

At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book. And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt

Matthew 25:31-46

When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on his right, “Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.” . . . Then he will say to those on his left, “Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. . . . And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”


2 Thessalonians 1:5-10

This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering—since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed.


Jude 7

Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.


So As I read and found these the scriptures appear to be very clear on an eternal fire or eternal suffering or eternal punishment, and I read from different translations and they all say the same thing. So yes I know it seems unfair to some I know that to some they cannot see a loving Father who throws ppl into eternal fire and sadly it is this very subject that repels many ppl from following God and even turns some into an atheist but we also have to remember that there are many things we do not and may never understand about God. Yes he is a very tender and loving God but at the same time is a mighty God who hates sin and judges with a fair righteous and mighty hammer. As I said before he is not a teddy bear and is not a tame God

The Bible says that those who do not make it have to go into ever lasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.
This means that whatever happens to the devil also happens to those that do not make it.

Mat_25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Now take a look at the devil's death sentence. It says exactly what happens to the devil:

Eze 28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
Eze 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

As you can see in Ezekiel 28:18 the devil is turned to ashes from the inside out. Anything that is turned to ashes no longer exists.
It is the punishment that is everlasting, not the way that the punishment is carried out.
It is my opinion that 'everlasting fire' likely means everlasting judgment.

 

[Elin]

Much of the confusion comes from a mistranslation of the words
"Owlam" and "Aionios." They don't mean forever.
Both words mean a long time, but they don't mean forever.

The Greek noun, aion, signifies a period of indefinite duration or time.
Phrases containing this word; e.g., eis ton aiona ("to the age") in Heb 5:6, should not be rendered literally, but consistently with its sense of indefinite duration.
The Greeks contrasted that which came to an end with eis ton aiona, showing their use of the phrase as expressing interminable duration.

The Greek adjective form, aionios, denotes eternal, and is contrasted with proskairos, denoting for a season, as in 2Co 4:18.
Aionios is used of that which in nature is endless (eternal); e.g.,
God (Ro 16:26),
God's power (1Tim 6:16),
God's glory (1Pe 5:10).
the Holy Spirit (Heb 9:14),
redemption (Heb 9:12),
salvation (Heb 5:9),
life in Christ (Jn 3:16),
the resurrection body (2Co 5:1),
the future rule of Christ (2Pe 1:11)
which is declared to be without end (Lk 1:33),
sin that never has forgiveness (Mk 3:29),
the judgment of God (Heb 6:2),
fire, one of the instruments of God's judgment (Mt 18:8, 25:41, Jude 7).

The fire of hell is unending (aionios).

Jude speaks of Sodom and Gomorrah as examples of eternal fire and yet they are not burning today, thus "aionios" fire doesn't mean eternal.

Actually, Jude does not use aionios (eternal), but uses aidios, which is "everlasting."

While aionios negates the end of a space of time, or of unmeasured time,
aidios lays stress on permanence and unchangeableness.

 

[Elin]

Hell, is the grave. Gehenna is the place of fire.

Sheol is mistranslated as "hell" in the KJV.

Sheol is not hell, it is the waiting place of spirits, where
Hades is the fire of Sheol (Lk 16:24), and
Paradise is the blessing of Sheol (Lk 16:22, 25).
See Jesus' parable on the rich man and Lazarus in Lk 16:19-31.

In the NT, hell is Gehenna, the place of eternal (unending) fire
(Mt 18:8, 25:41, in the post immediately above this one).

 

[Elin]

Here is a site that gives a basic understanding of the concept of "owlam"

Hebrew Word Meanings

As can be seen, there is a misunderstanding of the English term forever.

All that matters is the meaning of the NT Greek, where eternal fire is revealed by Jesus himself.

 

[Elin]

The idea of ETC is based on
the idea that man is immortal. This however
is not the case. The Scriptures teach us that the Father alone is immortal.

A plethora of Scriptures teach immortality of the human spirit, as shown here, here and here.

Scripture does not contradict itself, so 1Tim 6:16 does not mean what you think it does.

 

[Butch5]

There is basis for that. Ecclesiastes 12:5-7 (KJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Also when they shall be afraid of that which is high, and fears shall be in the way, and the almond tree shall flourish, and the grasshopper shall be a burden, and desire shall fail: because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets:
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

If you say that is of a sinner king, then that would make you a fool defying the wisdom of God, so let's not go there.

The body rots in the grave, the God-like spirit and soul are held in store by God. Each person born on earth then are held in spirit by God in one of two places. The redeemed are held over in Heaven, while the lost are held over in Hell. At the judgment all will be resurrected in their immortal bodies to which that immortal spirit will be restored, stood on their feet before Almighty God. In order for anyone to be resurrected, something about them must be beyond the grasp of death, what the Bible teaches as eternal life or death. Whichever applies is our choice while in the mortal flesh body. Ah, even the atheist and the Jehovah's Witness will experience that. To the atheist He will point to Himself on that throne. To the JW He will point to His Son on the other eternal throne. I will not pray for either.

This passage doesn't support the idea that man is a spirit. Man is dust, he was created from the dust. God put the breath of life, which is God's Neshamah into the man and the man became a living soul. That's Gen.2:7. According to Gen 2:7 a soul consists of a body and the breath or Neshamah of God. The Breath/spirit of God is just that God's, it is not man's. Man is not a spirit, he is flesh with the spirit of God in him. When a man dies the body returns to dust and God's breath/spirit returns to Him. When man is resurrected God will put together that which made up the man and God will put His breath/spirit back into the man and the man will live.

There is nothing immortal about man. God told Adam, dust you are and to dust you shall return.

 

[Butch5]

A plethora of Scriptures teach immortality of the human spirit, as shown here, here and here.

Scripture does not contradict itself, so 1Tim 6:16 does not mean what you think it does.

You're drawing a conclusion that those passages don't state. There is nothing that states that man "IS" a spirit of that he is immortal in and of himself. Paul tells us that the Father alone has immortality. So, actually, it's that passages that you posted that are being used to draw the wrong conclusion.

 

[Butch5]

All that matters is the meaning of the NT Greek, where eternal fire is revealed by Jesus himself.

That's not all that matters when Jesus is referring to OT prophecy. The word aionios doesn't mean eternal as can be seen from Jude who says that Sodom and Gamorrah are an example of eternal fire. Those cities are not burning today, thus aionios fire doesn't mean eternal fire.

 

[Butch5]

Sheol is mistranslated as "hell" in the KJV.

Sheol is not hell, it is the waiting place of spirits, where
Hades is the fire of Sheol (Lk 16:24), and
Paradise is the blessing of Sheol (Lk 16:22, 25).
See Jesus' parable on the rich man and Lazarus in Lk 16:19-31.

In the NT, hell is Gehenna, the place of eternal (unending) fire
(Mt 18:8, 25:41, in the post immediately above this one).

Sheol and Hades are the grave, the parable of Lazarus and the rich man is not about the afterlife. it's about the ending of the priesthood. If you look at the parable in the context of the three chapters it is pretty clear what He is getting at. If you look at the details of the parable it's pretty clear what He is getting at.

Also, the fire in Gehenna is not unending. Jeremiah prophesied that Gehenna would one day be made holy to God.

38 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the city shall be built to the LORD from the tower of Hananeel unto the gate of the corner.
39 And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it upon the hill Gareb, and shall compass about to Goath.
40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the brook of Kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, shall be holy unto the LORD; it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever. (Jer 31:38-40 KJV)

 

[Butch5]

The Greek noun, aion, signifies a period of indefinite duration or time.
Phrases containing this word; e.g., eis ton aiona ("to the age") in Heb 5:6, should not be rendered literally, but consistently with its sense of indefinite duration.
The Greeks contrasted that which came to an end with eis ton aiona, showing their use of the phrase as expressing interminable duration.

The Greek adjective form, aionios, denotes eternal, and is contrasted with proskairos, denoting for a season, as in 2Co 4:18.
Aionios is used of that which in nature is endless (eternal); e.g.,
God (Ro 16:26),
God's power (1Tim 6:16),
God's glory (1Pe 5:10).
the Holy Spirit (Heb 9:14),
redemption (Heb 9:12),
salvation (Heb 5:9),
life in Christ (Jn 3:16),
the resurrection body (2Co 5:1),
the future rule of Christ (2Pe 1:11)
which is declared to be without end (Lk 1:33),
sin that never has forgiveness (Mk 3:29),
the judgment of God (Heb 6:2),
fire, one of the instruments of God's judgment (Mt 18:8, 25:41, Jude 7).

The fire of hell is unending (aionios).


Actually, Jude does not use aionios (eternal), but uses aidios, which is "everlasting."

While aionios negates the end of a space of time, or of unmeasured time,
aidios lays stress on permanence and unchangeableness.

What the dictionary says doesn't really matter, what matters is what the Scriptures say. Those who write the dictionaries have their preconceived biases just like everyone else. The Scriptures use owlam and aionios for time periods that end. I've already given several passages showing that owlam is used of things that came to an end. In the Greek Old Testament, the Septuagint, owlam is translated with aion. Aionios is the adjective form of aion and as I've shown, it is used for things that end, thus it doesn't mean eternal.

I don't know where you got your information about Jude 1:7 but here is the verse in the Greek text.

BGT Jude 1:7 ὡς Σόδομα καὶ Γόμορρα καὶ αἱ περὶ αὐτὰς πόλεις τὸν ὅμοιον τρόπον τούτοις ἐκπορνεύσασαι καὶ ἀπελθοῦσαι ὀπίσω σαρκὸς ἑτέρας, πρόκεινται δεῖγμα πυρὸς αἰωνίου δίκην ὑπέχουσαι. (Jud 1:7 BGT)

I've bolded aionioin which is a form of aion.

 

[Butch5]

Hi, Butch,

Perhaps you would like to address the Biblical teaching presented in the last link above, demonstrating your claim therein.
(The typo there is corrected in the post following it.)


Do you mean a specific declarative statement?

Well, there are likewise no specific declarative statements that
God is sovereign, or that
God is Trinity, or that
believers are in a personal relationship with God,

but all are clearly taught all over Scripture, as is immortality of the human spirit,
shown in the three links in my post above.

Sure, here is what you posted:

And then there is Paul.

Paul says that death is to be absent from the body (2Co 5:7), not absence from existence;
and to be home with the Lord (2Co 5:7), not in oblivion (2Co 5:6-8).

"as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. . .I would prefer
to be away from the body and at home with the Lord." (2Co 5:6-8)

He says "to live is Christ and to die is gain." (Php 1:21)

He says "I desire to depart and be with Christ which is better by far, but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body." (Php 1:23-24)

Paul's statements would be absurd if his spirit were not immortal and living with Christ after his death.

And there is Jesus.
He who believes in me will live, though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. (Jn 11:26)

"If anyone keeps my word, he will never see death." (Jn 8:51)

And we know that Jesus was not contradicting the sentence of physical death on all mankind in the garden.

Jesus also said God "is not God of the dead but of the living,
and that Scripture says in Ex 3:6 "I am (present tense) the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." (Lk 20:37-38)
Therefore, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are still living, or there would be no Abraham, Isaac and Jacob to be(am) God of.

And again, we know that Jesus was not contradicting the sentence of physical death on all mankind in the garden.

Your use of Paul's words assumes and immediate presence with Christ, yet Paul doesn't say that his being with Christ would be immediate. If we take into consideration that was a Pharisee and look at what the Pharisees believed we'll see that they believed that when a man died he remained in the grave until the resurrection, unconscious of anything. If the dead are unconscious then all one would know is one minute they were alive and the next they're standing before Christ resurrected. So, it would seem immediate even though they were in the grave many years. This is a perfectly acceptable understanding of the passages and I would submit likely since Paul nowhere says that being with Christ is immediate.

I would suggest that the idea of being with Christ immediately comes from the very idea the passage is being used to support, in other words, the idea of being with Christ immediately is being brought to the text rather than being drawn from it.

The passage from John 11 is clearly talking about the resurrection. Jesus said, though he dies. The one dies and lives and believes, he's resurrected so of course he will never die. The passage about Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is a reference to the resurrection, Jesus states that, He says, as touching the resurrection. When Jesus talks about people not seeing death He is referring to the resurrection. Those who do not believe will see death, those who believe will not.

If you want to prove that man has an immortal spirit, you'll need to show where the concept is taught in Scripture. Drawing inferences from certain passages is not proof to support your claim. It may seem like proof to you if you already believe that but an inference is not proof, it's a conclusion drawn based on certain facts, that conclusion can be wrong.

 

[Elin]

You're drawing a conclusion that those passages don't state.

Are you going in circles, Butch, rather than addressing the Scriptures I presented?

This was previously addressed by me in:

Perhaps you would like to address the Biblical teaching presented here,
and demonstrate (not just assert) your claim against it.
(The typo there is corrected in the post following it.)

There is nothing that states that man "IS" a spirit of that he is immortal in and of himself.

Previously addressed by me in:

Do you mean a specific declarative statement?

Well, there are likewise no specific declarative statements that
God is sovereign, or that
God is Trinity, or that
believers are in a personal relationship with God,

but all are clearly taught all over Scripture, as is immortality of the human spirit,
shown here, here and here.

Paul tells us that the Father alone has immortality.
So, actually, it's that passages that you posted that are being used to draw the wrong conclusion.

Perhaps you would like to address the following Scriptures on immortality where

I. Paul says that death is to be absent from the body (2Co 5:7), not absence from existence;
and to be home with the Lord (2Co 5:7), not in oblivion (2Co 5:6-8).

"as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. . .I would prefer
to be away from the body and at home with the Lord." (2Co 5:6-8)

He says "to live is Christ and to die is gain." (Php 1:21)

He says "I desire to depart and be with Christ which is better by far, but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body." (Php 1:23-24)

Paul's statements would be absurd if his spirit were not immortal and living with Christ after his death.

II. And Jesus says:
He who believes in me will live, though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. (Jn 11:26)

"If anyone keeps my word, he will never see death." (Jn 8:51)

And we know that Jesus was not contradicting the sentence of physical death on all mankind in the garden.

Jesus also said God "is not God of the dead but of the living,
and that Scripture says in Ex 3:6 "I am (present tense) the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." (Lk 20:37-38)
Therefore, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are still living, or there would be no Abraham, Isaac and Jacob to be (am) God of.

And again, we know that Jesus was not contradicting the sentence of physical death on all mankind in the garden.

I remind you of what Jesus said to the Sadducees at this time:
"You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God." (Mt 22:29)

III. Or the meaning of "eternal" (aionios) in the Greek:

The Greek adjective form, aionios, denotes eternal, and is contrasted with proskairos, denoting for a season, as in 2Co 4:18.
Aionios is used of that which in nature is endless (eternal); e.g.,
God (Ro 16:26),
God's power (1Tim 6:16),
God's glory (1Pe 5:10).
the Holy Spirit (Heb 9:14),
redemption (Heb 9:12),
salvation (Heb 5:9),
life in Christ (Jn 3:16),
the resurrection body (2Co 5:1),
the future rule of Christ (2Pe 1:11)
which is declared to be without end (Lk 1:33),
sin that never has forgiveness (Mk 3:29),
the judgment of God (Heb 6:2),
fire, one of the instruments of God's judgment (Mt 18:8, 25:41, Jude 7).

The fire of hell is unending (aionios).

IV. And yes, I misspoke earlier regarding Jude 7. I was thinking of another verse (in Heb).

However, Jude says the burning sulfur rained down upon Sodom and Gomorrah serves as an example ("laid down an example") of the eternal fire that is to come. He does not say the fire of Sodom and Gomorrah was eternal fire.

 

[Kerry]

I have to depart and disagree with Elin. Where their worm doeth no die and there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. The demons pleaded "have you come to judge us before our time. let us go into the swine"

 

[Elin]

Sure, here is what you posted:

And then there is Paul.

Paul says that death is to be absent from the body (2Co 5:7), not absence from existence;
and to be home with the Lord (2Co 5:7), not in oblivion (2Co 5:6-8).

"as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. . .I would prefer
to be away from the body and at home with the Lord." (2Co 5:6-8)

He says "to live is Christ and to die is gain." (Php 1:21)

He says "I desire to depart and be with Christ which is better by far, but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body." (Php 1:23-24)

Paul's statements would be absurd if his spirit were not immortal and living with Christ after his death.

Your use of Paul's words assumes and immediate presence with Christ, yet Paul doesn't say that his being with Christ would be immediate.

Actually, it is Paul who assumes it,
which is why he would rather die on the spot than continue living:

"I desire to depart and be with Christ which is better by far, but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body." (Php 1:23-24)

You're grasping, Butch, to the absurd.

The Scriptures are clear that the human spirit is immortal.