"eternal" must mean "for ever" or it is measurable in the minds of men and is temporary. When death is destroyed, all that can remain is the eternal.
The doctrine I don't want to believe-eternal fire
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"eternal" must mean "for ever" or it is measurable in the minds of men and is temporary. When death is destroyed, all that can remain is the eternal.
As I said, If you look at what the Pharisees believed you'd see what Paul believed. He says nothing about immediately being with Christ, that's an assumption. One only assumes that if they already believe there is a part of man that lives on after death. the passage says nothing about a man living on after death. The Scriptures don't teach that, that is an inference that is drawn from certain passages, however, it is draw based on preconceptions, not the teaching of Scripture.
If we look at what the Scriptures do teach about what a man is we can look at the creation account.
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being. (Gen 2:7 NKJ)
Man was formed from the dust of the ground. God then breathed the breath/spirit of life into the man and the man became something else, he became a living soul. According to this passage a living soul consists of two things, the breath/spirit of life and a body (man). God told Adam if he ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil he would die. He told him that he would return to the dust. In Ecclesiastes we find that the body returns to the dust and the breath/spirit returns to God. We learned from Gen.2 that that breath/spirit is God's. In Ezekiel 37 God give a picture of the resurrection by bringing the bones together and putting flesh on them and says this.
11 Then He said to me, "Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. They indeed say,`Our bones are dry, our hope is lost, and we ourselves are cut off!'
12 "Therefore prophesy and say to them,`Thus says the Lord GOD: "Behold, O My people, I will open your graves and cause you to come up from your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
13 "Then you shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O My people, and brought you up from your graves.
14 "I will put My Spirit in you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land. Then you shall know that I, the LORD, have spoken it and performed it," says the LORD.'" (Eze 37:11-14 NKJ)
Notice whose spirit it is that makes them live. God said, " I will put MY Spirit in you". It is God's breath/spirit that gives man life not his own. Man is flesh and bone not spirit. Jesus said the same thing to the apostles when they thought they had seen a spirit.
37 But they were terrified and frightened, and supposed they had seen a spirit.
38 And He said to them, "Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts?
39 "Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have." (Luk 24:37-39 NKJ)
He said a spirit does not have flesh and bones. If you have flesh and bones you are not a spirit.
Jeremiah 31 speaks of the aftermath of the tribulation, when Jesus will rebuild Jerusalem according to those parameters, and to areas of sins of Israel. None of that area has ever been called Hades or Sheol. The dead bodies and bloodied land is from the battle at the valley 'Megiddo' (i.e. Armageddon). Gehenna refers to another valley somewhere outside Jerusalem where idolatrous Jews joined with Cannanites when offering their children up to Molech. That left a legacy of untold numbers of innocent dead, one of many causes of the fall of Judah as identified through Jeremiah. Gehenna has been considered by Jews as the gate of Sheol (Hell).
I've addressed what asked for. The problem is assumptions. The passages do state what you're claiming, you're inferring it, there's a big difference.
But see, you're assuming, without proof, that one can be absent from the body and still exist. The Scriptures don't state that one can be absent from the body and exist. That's what I mean when I say that idea is being brought to the Scriptures.
He states a preference here, that doesn't mean it's an instantaneous happening. I could say I prefer to be away from my house and present in Hawaii, that doesn't mean the instant I walk out of my house I'll be in Hawaii.
This says nothing about the afterlife.
Again, this is his desire. And, as I said before, if the dead know nothing then all he would know is being alive one minute and the next thing he would know is standing before Christ in the resurrection so it would seem instantaneous even though it was not.
They're not absurd at all if you understand them from a Jewish perspective rather than a Greek perspective.
As I said, Jesus is referring to the resurrection, look at the passages in their context.
I've already addressed this issue several times. Aionios cannot mean eternal, the Scripture just don't allow it. It may be what the writers of dictionaries want it to mean but the Scriptures say otherwise.
It's not unending. I've posted the prophecy from Jeremiah several times that say that Gehenna will one day be made holy to the Lord, it's not going to burn forever.
An example of something is the thing. Hatred is not an example of love. However, Jude said that Sodom and Gomorrah suffered the vengeance of aionios fire. So, whatever it was they got it. The point is that it ended, Sodom and Gomorrah are not still burning.
Jude 1:21 (KJV) [SUP]21 [/SUP] Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
"Eternal" there is translated from Greek "aionios" meaning everlasting, perpetual. So according to you it really means maybe the lifetime of a man on earth? Maybe the lifespan of an old tree? Temporary? That wouldn't be much of a promise. In fact, it would be insulting to any recipient placing his eternal desiny in Christ.
I suppose you are free to accept some slight, temporary existence with God at your end. I will accept everlasting life without measure with God. But I doubt that you would be offered a choice once there among the redeemed. All those in that Book of Life will be part of a holy team in Christ, none going off into some dubious short-lived deal. Rather look for enjoying being a co-heir with Jesus. I'll identify with Him who sits at the right hand of the Father God for ever and ever.
Let Satan and his children be where they choose for as long as eternity is. I would not in this life comprehend letting them loose after some period of what (?)....earth years, to sit next to me...... muttering against God.....inciting rebellion against Him.....deceiving the elect......trying to figure out how to take over the throne of God......
How upset will he be to have spent one minute in that lake of fire? There is no cure for what he did and what he has spawned.
Here are some occurrences of aionios in the Greek Old Testament.
21 In a pan it shall be made with oil; and when it is baken, thou shalt bring it in: and the baken pieces of the meat offering shalt thou offer for a sweet savour unto the LORD.
22 And the priest of his sons that is anointed in his stead shall offer it: it is a statute for ever unto the LORD; it shall be wholly burnt. (Lev 6:21-22 KJV)
Here is an ordinance of the Law that is said to last aionios, forever. As I stated earlier Jesus and Paul both tell us that the Law came to an end. If it ended it's not forever or eternal.
14 And if a stranger sojourn with you, or whosoever be among you in your generations, and will offer an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD; as ye do, so he shall do.
15 One ordinance shall be both for you of the congregation, and also for the stranger that sojourneth with you, an ordinance for ever in your generations: as ye are, so shall the stranger be before the LORD. (Num 15:14-15 KJV)
Again, the Law ended.
21 In a pan it shall be made with oil; and when it is baken, thou shalt bring it in: and the baken pieces of the meat offering shalt thou offer for a sweet savour unto the LORD.
22 And the priest of his sons that is anointed in his stead shall offer it: it is a statute for ever unto the LORD; it shall be wholly burnt. (Lev 6:21-22 KJV)
Here is an ordinance of the Law that is said to last aionios, forever. As I stated earlier Jesus and Paul both tell us that the Law came to an end. If it ended it's not forever or eternal.
14 And if a stranger sojourn with you, or whosoever be among you in your generations, and will offer an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD; as ye do, so he shall do.
15 One ordinance shall be both for you of the congregation, and also for the stranger that sojourneth with you, an ordinance for ever in your generations: as ye are, so shall the stranger be before the LORD. (Num 15:14-15 KJV)
Again, the Law ended.
I don't know what you're talking about here but it doesn't change the fact that aionios cannot mean eternal. Whether we like it or not the word is mistranslated by translators. However, as I pointed out in another post, it has no bearing the believe as Jesus said, the children of the resurrection die no more. To die no more is eternal. So the meaning of aionios has no bearing on eternal life. However, it does have a bearing on the destiny of the wicked who are said in the English Bibles to burn forever. The fire itself does not burn forever as per Jeremiah 31, therefore anything in it will not burn forever. That which is thrown into the fire will burn up and turn to ashes, it will exist no more. The Scriptures tell us in several places that the wicked will perish, they will be no more, be as though they never were, etc. They won't suffer and be released, they will burn up. If you study the fire of God in the Scriptures you'll see that nothing survives the flames, even rocks and ashes are burned to non existence.
Jesus Identifies Gehenna as that place prophesied by Isaiah.
And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: {offend...: or, cause thee to offend}
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. (Mar 9:43-44 KJV)
22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. {from one new...: Heb. from new moon to his new moon, and from sabbath to his sabbath}
24And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. (Isa 66:22-24 KJV)
E
Enga
Guest
You will already know your position before going into the tribulations. You will know where you will go while on earth before the last days.
That include all Christians and non-chrisians , they all will know which place they will go either heaven or hell. I’m saying all this because in the bible it says that on day people will look for my word but they will not see it. They will look of it everywhere but they will no find it. Amos 8:11-13
It also says in Revelation 11:2-6
They will show their power over the holy city for 42 months. [SUP]3 [/SUP]And I will give power to my two witnesses. And they will prophesy for 1260 days. They will be dressed in sackcloth.”
[SUP]4 [/SUP]These two witnesses are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth. [SUP]5 [/SUP]If anyone tries to hurt the witnesses, fire comes from the mouths of the witnesses and kills their enemies. Anyone who tries to hurt them will die like this. [SUP]6 [/SUP]These witnesses have the power to stop the sky from raining during the time they are prophesying. These witnesses have power to make the water become blood. They have power to send every kind of plague to the earth. They can do this as many times as they want.
Also in Zachariah 13:7-9, [SUP]7 [/SUP]The Lord All-Powerful says, “Sword, wake up and strike the shepherd, my friend! Strike the shepherd, and the sheep will run away. And I will punish those little ones. [SUP]8 [/SUP]Two-thirds of the people in the land will be struck down and die,” says the Lord, “but one-third will survive. [SUP]9 [/SUP]Then I will test those survivors by giving them many troubles. The troubles will be like the fire a person uses to prove silver is pure. I will test them the way person tests gold. Then they will call to me for help, and I will answer them. I will say, ‘You are my people.’ And they will say, ‘The Lord is my God.’”
All this will happen close to the time of last day and during the time of revelation. But no one know when the revelation will start only if we find the Last Work of the Holy Spirit and only if we are in the last work of the Holy Spirit.
Dear friends, we will already know out place while on Earth, before we go into the Judgement. God is a fare God and when we stand in the Judgement he will point out our wrong or sins and just let us go into the hell. We will already judge you while on earth. The door of the Lord to his kingdom will be close while we are on earth and during that time we will know our position. And by that time we will be too late.
That include all Christians and non-chrisians , they all will know which place they will go either heaven or hell. I’m saying all this because in the bible it says that on day people will look for my word but they will not see it. They will look of it everywhere but they will no find it. Amos 8:11-13
It also says in Revelation 11:2-6
They will show their power over the holy city for 42 months. [SUP]3 [/SUP]And I will give power to my two witnesses. And they will prophesy for 1260 days. They will be dressed in sackcloth.”
[SUP]4 [/SUP]These two witnesses are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth. [SUP]5 [/SUP]If anyone tries to hurt the witnesses, fire comes from the mouths of the witnesses and kills their enemies. Anyone who tries to hurt them will die like this. [SUP]6 [/SUP]These witnesses have the power to stop the sky from raining during the time they are prophesying. These witnesses have power to make the water become blood. They have power to send every kind of plague to the earth. They can do this as many times as they want.
Also in Zachariah 13:7-9, [SUP]7 [/SUP]The Lord All-Powerful says, “Sword, wake up and strike the shepherd, my friend! Strike the shepherd, and the sheep will run away. And I will punish those little ones. [SUP]8 [/SUP]Two-thirds of the people in the land will be struck down and die,” says the Lord, “but one-third will survive. [SUP]9 [/SUP]Then I will test those survivors by giving them many troubles. The troubles will be like the fire a person uses to prove silver is pure. I will test them the way person tests gold. Then they will call to me for help, and I will answer them. I will say, ‘You are my people.’ And they will say, ‘The Lord is my God.’”
All this will happen close to the time of last day and during the time of revelation. But no one know when the revelation will start only if we find the Last Work of the Holy Spirit and only if we are in the last work of the Holy Spirit.
Dear friends, we will already know out place while on Earth, before we go into the Judgement. God is a fare God and when we stand in the Judgement he will point out our wrong or sins and just let us go into the hell. We will already judge you while on earth. The door of the Lord to his kingdom will be close while we are on earth and during that time we will know our position. And by that time we will be too late.
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Well, debates or discussions about the BIble are not a useless excercise (as if we were all go around in circles). I believe they can lead people to the truth within God's Word.
Well, I did not leave out key verses on your side of the debate. I have carefully considered both sides. In fact, as I said before, I was on the fence and believed both views as a possibility for a long while.
While some people read the Scriptures always from a natural man's perspective and have no spiritual understanding, that does not mean God did not give us a brain to think and to just believe something that doesn't line up with God's Word, God's love and or any kind of real world example. For you said that the BIble needs to flow all together. I believe that 100%. Parables (real world examples) are consistent with the spiritual truths Jesus taught. So if what you say is true, then we should be able to make a real world example out of ECT and how that fits into God being loving. But we both know you cannot do that. Why? Because such a thing is not loving. If what you say is true, then we should see other examples in the Bible of God torturing people for long periods of time. The only ones who I see suffering for a long period of time is the beast and the false prophet, who I believe are demons who have inflicted unimaginable amounts of evil upon human kind for thousands of years.
But while this is true, you have to ignore the words of Jesus that says, He can DESTROY both body and soul in Hell (Gehenna, i.e. the Lake of Fire). For Scriptures say the last enemy that shall be DESTROYED is death.
The Greek word "aion" for the English word "ever" can be defined as an "age." In fact, this same word "aion" has been translated as the English word "world" in the rest of Scripture within the KJV. For example: Matthew 24:3 says, "...even unto the end of the world." The word "world" here is the same Greek word "aion" for the English word "ever." In other words, I replace "world" with "age" in Matthew 24:3 and it still means the same thing. But if I make "aion" as "ever" in this passage, it doesn't make sense. So you see. The English word "ever" in the KJV (that has influenced Modern Translations) should not be read as we would understand that word today.
Eternal what? Eternal Torture? No. Eternal Suffering? No. It is talking about Destruction. For example: if I destroy my computer, it will no longer work. Just as if somebody destroyed the physical body of another.
The fire is eternal. Doesn't mean people are burning their eternally. In other words, let's say a valiant knight was given a magical sword that was eternal by his king.. Does that mean that this knight who slayed his enemies with this sword was slaying them eternally? No.
You obviously didn't look at any of the verses within my first few post within this thread. I provided a list of verses that clearly show that "forever" does not always mean "forever" in the Bible.
Chaff is the dry, scaly protective casings of seeds of cereal or grain. The wicked are the chaff and they are BURNED UP by the unquenchable fire.
California has had some pretty intense infernos and or forest fires. The fires were so strong that they appeared to be almost unquenchable. However, that does not equate with that which was inside the fire as being in an endless state. These types of fires consume and burn up many things.
Let's not kid anyone here. You are here to convince me. Otherwise you would not put any effort into explaining your position. Also, I disagree that "these debates" make a difference and or convince people. I have seen people change their mind because I did not let up on a Bible dicussion. It is rare, but it does happen. In fact, I changed my mind on ECT because somebody was willing to fight for the truth in God's Word.
Yes, I agree. If a person debates and does not honestly want to seek out the truth of God's Word with the Lord on a particular matter (Even if it is a unpopular view), then they are not going to have any true spirutal understanding on that topic.
Well, I strongly disagree my friend. In my many discussions over the years, I have found that most people have a hard time seeing what you had acttually written. Bullet points and numbered lists helps the reader to see what I am trying to say better. Some do not like if I bold in large fonts a particular part of Scripture. But again, because people are not choosing to see those words, I then give them no excuse by showing it to them clearly. It's about clarity of information. Nothing more. I was not angry at anyone. Nor was I striving to be puffed up like I know more than others by using such a method. Please read more. You will find that there are many good hearted Christians who use bullet points in their written works in communicating to other people. Such written works would include books, articles, blogs, forum posts, church brochures, etc.
If you are brother in Christ (Which I believe we are), we all can learn from each other. That is why we are here. Iron sharpens iron. Oh, and I am not your better. I am nothing. Christ is everything. I only proclaim the truth of what I know to be true in God's Word. I do so as to glorify God and not myself.
Anyways, love, peace, and blessings be unto you, my dear brother.
I say these things not to get you upset or to be better in any way. I say these things with love and in truth.
With loving kindness to you in Christ,
Sincerely,
~Jason.
...
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Yet, Scripture makes it clear that it can mean destroyed, too. See Matthew 12:14, Matthew 18:14, and Matthew 21:41.
Eternal life can only be found in the Son. There are no verses that suggest that there is life outside the Son. He that has the Son has life and He that does not have the Son does not have life (1 John 5:12). Yet, you would have me believe that there is life outside the Son. Jesus said, whosever lives and believes in me shall never die (John 11:26). Everyone physically dies. So this is speaking in spiritual terms. 1 Timothy 6:16 says Christ alone possesses immortality.
I believe in the bodily resurrection and I don't believe in soul sleep. I believe the wicked will go to a temporary place known as Hell. I believe it is a place of torment and not torture. More like a really bad prison and not a torture chamber in being burned by fire. Only the beast and the false prophet (Who are demons) will be cast into the Lake of Fire for 1,000 years. No doubt because they tortured humanity for even longer than that. Anyways, the wicked in Hell after the Judgment will be thrown in the Lake of Fire. We do not know how long anyone will spend there for their crimes. But we do know that everyone (Including the devil and his minions) will be destroyed there; And we do know that our God is a fair and just God (Who is not willing to punish someone beyond what the crime calls for).
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Important Note for other readers here:
While I do love Butch5 and while we may appear to agree on certain points on this topic, I am not in association with him, nor do I support him. We disagree strongly on what I believe are the basics of the Christian faith (For I believe a person being born again is talking about a spirtual re-birth. I believe Jesus spoke many times to illustrate spiritual truths. Like "death" means spiritual death. I also believe in the Trinity, and the fact that Christ is the Eternal Son of God, etc.).
While I do love Butch5 and while we may appear to agree on certain points on this topic, I am not in association with him, nor do I support him. We disagree strongly on what I believe are the basics of the Christian faith (For I believe a person being born again is talking about a spirtual re-birth. I believe Jesus spoke many times to illustrate spiritual truths. Like "death" means spiritual death. I also believe in the Trinity, and the fact that Christ is the Eternal Son of God, etc.).
I don't believe in soul sleep. I believe Hell is a place of torment and not torture. I believe the rich man was tormented by the heart of the flame that was in front of him in the great gulf between him and Abraham. For I believe Scriptures suggests that Hell sits above the Lake of Fire, whereby it will one day be cast (or lowered) into it. I believe the Scriptures when they say that the last enemy to be DESTROYED is death. Death will really be destroyed like all of God's enemies will be destroyed. Everyone will perish in the Lake of Fire. It will be the wicked's eternal consequence or punishment.
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Edit Correction:
Meant to say "heat" and not "heart" of the flame. The rich man was tormented by the HEAT of the flame that was in front of him.
Sorry about that folks.
Anyways, peace, and blessings be unto you all from the Lord.
A
AbbeyJoy
Guest
Psalm 90:2 (KJV) [SUP]2 [/SUP] Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.
Another local Bible teacher emailed this to me as a suggestion, so this was not my idea. I appreciate knowing local peers are examining my activities here and elsewhere. That verse says God is everlasting past and future. The Hebrew owlam ("everlasting" in English) there is defined in terms of how long God was God and will be God. Sometimes the word is used to express short periods concerning the things of men, the context of the verse(s) around the word determining the extent of time or timelessness.
The earth will someday have no sun, like as it is in Heaven now. God will be the light of it. "Keeping time" will have passed away, there being simply perpetual existence in His light.
Such references to Hell are probably always in connection to the eternal status of it and it's citizens. When Hell is cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, indeed the corridors of Hell will flow with that.
Revelation 14:9-11 (KJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
[SUP]10 [/SUP] The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
[SUP]11 [/SUP] And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
That's the warning concerning people who take the mark. If their torment rises forever, they are burning, but not annihilated. If God can set a bush on fire without consuming it into ashes, He can burn the wicked forever without making them non-existent. There is no torment possible for anyone that is burned up without a trace. That would actually be a blessing to simply cease to exist. What punishment is that?
For 1,000 years the Beast and the False prophet are kept in the lake burning with fire and brimstone. Why not annihilated?
Revelation 19:20 (KJV) [SUP]20 [/SUP] And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
So, as soon as Jesus returns, those two go into the lake, while Satan is locked up in the pit those same 1,000 years. He is let loose to deceive the world at the end, then joins his buddies in the lake. I don't see a hint of annihilation in any of it, but a literal fulfillment of the prophesy in Rev. 14:9-11.
Ah, but none of this affects terms of our salvation. I believe it is given to us to ponder for the purpose of having greater incentive to do what we can to see others saved from all that, as nicely worded in Jude 1:21-25 (KJV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] And of some have compassion, making a difference:
[SUP]23 [/SUP] And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
[SUP]24 [/SUP] Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
[SUP]25 [/SUP] To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.
For Hell is sort of like an island sitting atop of the Lake of Fire. For the Earth's core is like a big fiery hot ball. The great gulf is an opening or crack in Hell's surface letting some of the flame from below (in the Lake of Fire) to show.
Deuteronomy 32:22
"For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains."
The lowest Hell is the Lake of Fire. For the English word Hell can be translated as Gehenna in the Greek within the New Testament, which means Lake of Fire.
Isaiah 34:14
"The wild beasts of the desert shall also meet with the wild beasts of the island, and the satyr shall cry to his fellow; the screech owl also shall rest there, and find for herself a place of rest."
The wild beasts, the satyr, and the screech owl in this passage are demons. The wild beasts of the island are those demons on the island of Hell below.