greatkraw I shouldn't have to ask ,just jump in. I wish to be amazed at your extensive knowledge and skill at distorting historical facts. 
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greatkraw
Guest
greatkraw I shouldn't have to ask ,just jump in. I wish to be amazed at your extensive knowledge and skill at distorting historical facts.
Thank You.
Ephraim the Syrian said, in 373 AD, "For all the saints and the Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."
Ephraem of Nisibis was the most important and prolific of the Syrian church fathers and a witness to early Christianity on the fringes of the Roman Empire in the late fourth century. He was well-known for his poetry, exegetical and theological writings, and many of the hymns of the early Byzantine church. So popular were his works that in the fifth and sixth centuries he was adopted by several Christian communities as a spiritual leader and role model. This sermon is deemed to be one of the most interesting apocalyptic texts of the early Middle Ages. The translation of the sermon includes the following segment:
"For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."
This text was originally a sermon called On the Last Times, the Anti-christ, and the End of the World. There are four existing Latin manuscripts (the Parisinus, the Augiensis, the Barberini, and the St. Gallen) ascribed to St. Ephraem or to St. Isidore . Some scholars believe this text was written by some unknown writer in the sixth century and was derived from the original Ephraem.
The sermon describes the events of the last days, beginning with the rapture, the Great Tribulation of 3 1/2 years duration under the Antichrist's rule, followed by the Second Coming of Christ. In Ephraem's book The Book of the Cave of Treasures, written about 370 A.D., he expressed his belief that the 69th week of Daniel ended with the rejection and crucifixion of Jesus the Messiah.
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That's a good start is there any more?
Anyway we can establish a few things from this writing, it is thought to be pseudo-Ephraem, probably not written by him.
Ephraem doesn't mention it in any other place, which suggests it is just once sentence found by pre-tribbers that seems to support their view, rather than any new or different doctrine Ephraem is introducing to the church.
Ephraem is probably not a pre-tribber because he says elsewhere
"But those who wander through the deserts, fleeing from the face of the serpent, bend their knees to God, just as lambs to the adders of their mothers, being sustained by the salvation of the Lord, and while wandering in states of desertion, they eat herbs."
Which is reference to the church being kept safe during the 3.5 year tribulation period and linked to Revelations 12.
Paul taught that Christ's coming and our gathering together to Him would not come until the falling away and the anti-christ is revealed, obviously not pre-tribulational:
2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, my brothers, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,
2Th 2:3 Let not anyone deceive you by any means. For that Day shall not come unless there first comes a falling away, and the man of sin shall be revealed, the son of perdition,
2Th 2:4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, setting himself forth, that he is God.
So based upon what Paul said that the gathering does not occur until at least the man of sin being revealed, Ephraem would be wrong, if he intended to mean a pre-trib rapture.
Recommend reading a book , "the Incredible Cover-up," by dave MacPherson
http://www.alibris.com/search/books/qwork/3183033/used/Incredible Cover Up
whose research uncovered the origins of the pre-trib rapture.
Anyway we can establish a few things from this writing, it is thought to be pseudo-Ephraem, probably not written by him.
Ephraem doesn't mention it in any other place, which suggests it is just once sentence found by pre-tribbers that seems to support their view, rather than any new or different doctrine Ephraem is introducing to the church.
Ephraem is probably not a pre-tribber because he says elsewhere
"But those who wander through the deserts, fleeing from the face of the serpent, bend their knees to God, just as lambs to the adders of their mothers, being sustained by the salvation of the Lord, and while wandering in states of desertion, they eat herbs."
Which is reference to the church being kept safe during the 3.5 year tribulation period and linked to Revelations 12.
Paul taught that Christ's coming and our gathering together to Him would not come until the falling away and the anti-christ is revealed, obviously not pre-tribulational:
2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, my brothers, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,
2Th 2:3 Let not anyone deceive you by any means. For that Day shall not come unless there first comes a falling away, and the man of sin shall be revealed, the son of perdition,
2Th 2:4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, setting himself forth, that he is God.
So based upon what Paul said that the gathering does not occur until at least the man of sin being revealed, Ephraem would be wrong, if he intended to mean a pre-trib rapture.
Recommend reading a book , "the Incredible Cover-up," by dave MacPherson
http://www.alibris.com/search/books/qwork/3183033/used/Incredible Cover Up
whose research uncovered the origins of the pre-trib rapture.
It has long been pointed out that pre-tribulationism is a relatively new doctrine. With one possible exception, there is no record of it being taught before the past century. Now this does not in itself mean that it is false, but it should raise some eyebrows. If Peter and Paul taught pre-tribulationism, then we would expect the early church to have been pre-trib. This challenge intrigued Grant R. Jeffrey so much that he searched for over ten years for evidence of pre-tribulationism before the 1800s.1 He found one person in the fourth century whom he claims was a pre-tribulationist.2 This person is called Pseudo-Ephraem.3 Since there had been no official translation of this work into English, Jeffrey had someone translate it for him.Thank You.
Ephraim the Syrian said, in 373 AD, "For all the saints and the Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."
Ephraem of Nisibis was the most important and prolific of the Syrian church fathers and a witness to early Christianity on the fringes of the Roman Empire in the late fourth century. He was well-known for his poetry, exegetical and theological writings, and many of the hymns of the early Byzantine church. So popular were his works that in the fifth and sixth centuries he was adopted by several Christian communities as a spiritual leader and role model. This sermon is deemed to be one of the most interesting apocalyptic texts of the early Middle Ages. The translation of the sermon includes the following segment:
"For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."
This text was originally a sermon called On the Last Times, the Anti-christ, and the End of the World. There are four existing Latin manuscripts (the Parisinus, the Augiensis, the Barberini, and the St. Gallen) ascribed to St. Ephraem or to St. Isidore . Some scholars believe this text was written by some unknown writer in the sixth century and was derived from the original Ephraem.
The sermon describes the events of the last days, beginning with the rapture, the Great Tribulation of 3 1/2 years duration under the Antichrist's rule, followed by the Second Coming of Christ. In Ephraem's book The Book of the Cave of Treasures, written about 370 A.D., he expressed his belief that the 69th week of Daniel ended with the rejection and crucifixion of Jesus the Messiah.
According to his translation, Pseudo-Ephraem wrote "See to it that this sentence be not fulfilled among you of the prophet who declares: ‘Woe to those who desire to see the Day of the Lord!’ Because all saints and the Elect of the Lord are gathered together before the tribulation which is about to come and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins." Now on the surface this does seem to support Jeffrey’s claim. But a few things are worthy of note. According to this document, Pseudo-Ephraem correctly understood the Tribulation to refer to the second 3 ½ years of Daniel’s seventieth week, not in the common way it is used today, which is to refer to the entire period.
Also, in this same document Pseudo-Ephraem says, "Already there have been hunger and plagues, violent movements of nations and signs, which have been predicted by the Lord, they have already been fulfilled, and there is not other which remains, except the advent of the wicked one in the completion of the Roman kingdom." If Pseudo-Ephraem is claiming that some of the things which Jesus had predicted were then being fulfilled, then he thought that he was already in Daniel’s seventieth week. Also, he expected to see the antichrist before the Lord would return. At best, Pseudo-Ephraem was what we would today call a mid-tribulationist.
So what we have is maybe and I mean maybe one mid tribulationalist, and that is all tyou can come up with to support the historical view of the pretrib theory.Sad very sad indeed.
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shrone
Guest
You as well as I both know I was quoting pretribers who claim the coming of Christ mentioned in 1st Thess 4:15 is not referring to the coming of Christ, and not saying that it was my own opinion that the bible doesn;t mean what it says. I am the type of Christian that actually believes that when scripture says at the coming of Christ it means at the coming of Christ. What kind of christian are you? Do you believe that 1st Thess 4:15 is referring to the coming of Christ or not?
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NewJerusalem
Guest
ot only did the early Church teach that the Church would face Antichrist, and that Christ would return at the beginning of the Millennium, but in all of Church history, there is never a pre-tribulation rapture teaching, until Edward Irving writes of it in the 1830s A.D. -----So, the pre-trib rapture teaching is only 170 years old (and the mid-trib teaching is even more recent).
Outstanding Bible Teachers in subsequent generations of Church history, who taught that the Church would encounter the persecution of the Antichrist here on earth before the Second Coming, include : John Calvin, Martin Luther, John Knox, John Bunyan, Isaac Newton, George Whitefield, Charles Spurgeon, Charles Hodge, Henry Alford, J.Sidlow Baxter, F.F. Bruce, Thomas Chalmers, Adam Clarke, Jonathan Edwards, Jim Elliott, W.J. Erdman, Robert Gundry, Carl F. Henry, Matthew Henry, John Huss, Orson Jones, C.S. Lovett, J.Gresham Machen, Peter Marshall, Walter Martin, Gary Matsdorf, G.Campbell Morgan, Leon Morris, George Mueller, Ian Murray, B.W. Newton, John Newton, H.J. Ockenga, Bernard Ramm, Alexander Reese, A. Saphir, Demos Shakarian, A.B. Simpson, Oswald J. Smith, Jim Spillman, R.C. Sproul, Charles Spurgeon, Corrie TenBoom, S.P. Tragelles, William Tyndale, B.B. Warfield, Charles Wesley, R.F. Youngblood, -----and premillennial posttribulationists also include : Bengel, Brooks, Cameron, Delitzsch, Derstine, DeWette, Ellicott, Ewald, Frost, Godet, Godwin, Joyner, Kellogg, Moorehead, Orelli, Robertson, Rothe, Ryle, Spener, Stier, Trench, Volck, Van Ostersee, West, Whiston, Zahn, and many more. -----In looking at the whole history of the Christian Church, the overwhelming majority of great Bible-teachers have believed that the Church would encounter Antichrist, and that the rapture and the Second Coming would happen at the same time ...after the tribulation.[/quote]
Outstanding Bible Teachers in subsequent generations of Church history, who taught that the Church would encounter the persecution of the Antichrist here on earth before the Second Coming, include : John Calvin, Martin Luther, John Knox, John Bunyan, Isaac Newton, George Whitefield, Charles Spurgeon, Charles Hodge, Henry Alford, J.Sidlow Baxter, F.F. Bruce, Thomas Chalmers, Adam Clarke, Jonathan Edwards, Jim Elliott, W.J. Erdman, Robert Gundry, Carl F. Henry, Matthew Henry, John Huss, Orson Jones, C.S. Lovett, J.Gresham Machen, Peter Marshall, Walter Martin, Gary Matsdorf, G.Campbell Morgan, Leon Morris, George Mueller, Ian Murray, B.W. Newton, John Newton, H.J. Ockenga, Bernard Ramm, Alexander Reese, A. Saphir, Demos Shakarian, A.B. Simpson, Oswald J. Smith, Jim Spillman, R.C. Sproul, Charles Spurgeon, Corrie TenBoom, S.P. Tragelles, William Tyndale, B.B. Warfield, Charles Wesley, R.F. Youngblood, -----and premillennial posttribulationists also include : Bengel, Brooks, Cameron, Delitzsch, Derstine, DeWette, Ellicott, Ewald, Frost, Godet, Godwin, Joyner, Kellogg, Moorehead, Orelli, Robertson, Rothe, Ryle, Spener, Stier, Trench, Volck, Van Ostersee, West, Whiston, Zahn, and many more. -----In looking at the whole history of the Christian Church, the overwhelming majority of great Bible-teachers have believed that the Church would encounter Antichrist, and that the rapture and the Second Coming would happen at the same time ...after the tribulation.[/quote]
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NewJerusalem
Guest
woops, guess i dont know how to post a quote in my reply....
Anyhow,.. Mohagany Snail you have stated several things very accurate and right on. You mentioned the beginning of the pre-trib teaching from the 1830's, and I would add Darby was a large part in the pre-trib conception and Scofield carried it widely into the 20th century.
I could be wrong, but am I seeing a fulfilled eschatology in you, either full or partial? If so, then you may be the first I've seen since coming to CC about 3 months ago. Very refreshing to see what appears to beI'm sure a similar understanding of Scripture. I'd like to discuss more with you. CC email me or at [email protected]
In Christ,
David John (NewJerusalem)
Anyhow,.. Mohagany Snail you have stated several things very accurate and right on. You mentioned the beginning of the pre-trib teaching from the 1830's, and I would add Darby was a large part in the pre-trib conception and Scofield carried it widely into the 20th century.
I could be wrong, but am I seeing a fulfilled eschatology in you, either full or partial? If so, then you may be the first I've seen since coming to CC about 3 months ago. Very refreshing to see what appears to beI'm sure a similar understanding of Scripture. I'd like to discuss more with you. CC email me or at [email protected]
In Christ,
David John (NewJerusalem)
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miktre
Guest
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oopsies
Guest
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oopsies
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miktre
Guest
Actually God called it vanity and lying divination is why people teach the rapture. I certainly don't understand why you insist to cling on to nothing. So yeah God said to speak out against those who teach rapture, do you not think God would know of this controversy? This lie from satan? I would rather be nice and call it stubbornness but thats not right I need to call it for what it is =vanity.Judge not lest you be judged first.
The rapturist believes and has judged themselves special above other believers. It's clear if there was a rapture not all would go, and I've heard them all say this. You can't get away from the word when tells us that a remnant will be here, yet they have judged themselves special amongst men that they will be gone yet other believers who are not as special as they are will remain. Don't you think God could use you during the tribulation? He already told us He wanted to use us to testify before the rulers of the world.
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oopsies
Guest
My post was in response to how you were telling Thaddeus that he was leading people to hell and that he was doing Satan's work. How you manage to twist it into something else to attack me is beyond understanding.
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greatkraw
Guest
Not true. The sealing work of the Holy Spirit means all who are genuinely saved will go. That will complete the Church. There were believers before the Church and there will be believers after the church.
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miktre
Guest
I thought you were referring to the stubbornness comment. Telling someone that they are leading people to hell is not judging a man, no more if I said he was leading them to wal-mart it's merely acknowledging one's actions. I no not his heart but God said the reason they teach rapture is because of vanity.
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oopsies
Guest
My quote on what you said is very clear. How you manage to think I was referring to only one part of your quote and not the other parts is very interesting.
Telling someone that they are leading people to hell may or may not be judgmental. Telling people that teaching the rapture is because of vanity may or may not be judgmental. However, it certainly is what the Nicolaitans and the Pharisees were doing - behaving in such a manner as if they had an inside track to God that no one else had and that God had specially appointed them to do certain things like wake others up.
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miktre
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by miktre
For your pride and stubbornness you are leading people straight to hell, Thaddaeus. Woe unto you. You are doing satans work, nothing less.
Originally Posted by miktre
For your pride and stubbornness you are leading people straight to hell, Thaddaeus. Woe unto you. You are doing satans work, nothing less.
God said specifically that those who taught rapture were vain not me. I don't have an inside track when God clearly stated what would happen in the endtimes.
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I dont think thaddeus is leading anyone to hell unless he's not preaching Jesus and that's certainly not true.
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miktre
Guest
The problem is that when the endtimes come if he is alive at that time and the people he teaches rapture are still alive, then he will have led them straight into satans bed. Not everyone that says Lord, Lord.........