Music in Church?

[Jabberjaw]

Didn't I warn y'all a few pages back? The no-instruments-in-church kind of debater will never, ever concede a single point. If y'all had listened a lot of e-ink could have been saved...

So far in our search for the truth, the only wast of e-ink has been posts like yours, no value whatever...

 

[kennethcadwell]

You give the menu at a fast food restaurant and he/she taking your order more reverence than the word of God, do you when ordering a "Big Mack" at McDonald's go down the list of the "what you don't wants" or do you say I want a Big Mack, therefore automatically excluding all the "what you don't wants"... why do you expect more of God?



I said I have not argued that "Psallo" does not means to pluck the string of an instrument, I said it could be guitar, and it can be that of a carpenter string etc..., it is an instrument with a string that is plucked and has been used as such in the Greek

The Greek playwright, used the word of “plucking hair” (Persae, p. 1062). Euripides (480-460 B.C.?), another Greek writer, spoke of “twanging” the bowstring (Bacchae, p. 784). Psallo was used of “twitching” the carpenter’s line so as to leave a mark (Anthologia Palatine, 6.103))

I have not denied the fact that Psallo means to pluck or twang the string of an instrument, but what I have said is like the Greek word "Baptizo" does not define what instrument is used to "Baptize" and must be found in the context, so too is the Greek word "Psallo" used, it does not say what the instrument who's string is "twanged", but must be found in the context, Paul metaphorically used the "heart" as the instrument played. (now you will probably say the heart cannot be played, if so you must hold that as fact and say it cannot be written to either (Heb 8:10))




Animal sacrifice goes back almost to creation, so why do you not argue that animal sacrifice was "taken out of the way" or "nailed to the cross"? because animal sacrifice does not make you feel good...

It was the "Ordinance's" that were contrary to us that was taken away, if the Patriarch Laws (Prophets) were not contrary, why have the stones? it was the "Ordinance's, the Law AND the Prophets" that were taken out of the way, not destroyed, but no longer a covenant, we are now "under" a "new covenant"...

Now without drawing on commands from the "Old Covenant, the Law and Prophets", show in the "New Covenant, of which we are now under" where anything other than "sing" is commanded, or fall to committing spiritual adultery following two covenants.

Yes but unlike psallo where you don't have to many references to really clear it up one way or the other, and should be left up to the Holy Spirit to choose how the worship is done in the church and not our personal opinions and interpretation of scripture.

But Baptizo can easily be determined what the immersing means by going by Peter's words in the book of Acts;

First Acts 2 Peter shows that the baptizing and Holy Spirit are two separate events that happen similtaneously.

Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Then Peter tells us in Acts 10 that baptism is still done in water, and does it in a manner to let it be known that no man can forbid what the Lord commanded.

[h=1]Acts 10:47-48
Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.[/h]

 

[Jabberjaw]

Yes but unlike psallo where you don't have to many references to really clear it up one way or the other, and should be left up to the Holy Spirit to choose how the worship is done in the church and not our personal opinions and interpretation of scripture.

The word of God is of no private interpretation (2 Peter 1:20), God is not the author of confusion (1 Cor. 14:33) His Spirit through inspiration penned the word ψαλμοις, (Psallo) we do have many examples of what Psallo means, in fact we are in agreement that it means to pluck or twang a stringed instrument... the context says the instrument is the heart.

But Baptizo can easily be determined what the immersing means by going by Peter's words in the book of Acts;

There is no difference, it is clear in Eph. 5:19 and Col. 3:16, the melody is played "in the heart", the command is given to "all" therefore it must be an instrument that "all" can play, even the deaf and mute can have their heart strings pulled (moved) by the words of spiritual song.

 

[Jabberjaw]

Didn't I warn y'all a few pages back? The no-instruments-in-church kind of debater will never, ever concede a single point. If y'all had listened a lot of e-ink could have been saved...

This is why it is called debate, Kenneth has been very civil and forceful with his POV as I have, and that is good, he is putting forth what he believes to be the truth, so have others, so too am I.

We may never change each others mind, and that is okay, it is not a fight to see who wins, it is a search for the truth, it should be what we who participate are looking for as well as those who only read, for those uninterested in the subject they can find many others, so unless like Kenneth, you have something valid to offer, kindly I ask you find another thread...

 

[Kerry]

I couldn't imagine singing amazing grace with out music and most people can't sing (here here) and the music drowns it out to a point. Yeah it don't say in NT, but in the OT music was an integral part of worship. I meant if there were musical instruments in the temple why not in the church.

 

[kennethcadwell]

The word of God is of no private interpretation (2 Peter 1:20), God is not the author of confusion (1 Cor. 14:33) His Spirit through inspiration penned the word ψαλμοις, (Psallo) we do have many examples of what Psallo means, in fact we are in agreement that it means to pluck or twang a stringed instrument... the context says the instrument is the heart.



There is no difference, it is clear in Eph. 5:19 and Col. 3:16, the melody is played "in the heart", the command is given to "all" therefore it must be an instrument that "all" can play, even the deaf and mute can have their heart strings pulled (moved) by the words of spiritual song.

That scripture in 2 Peter says no prophecy is of private interpretation.
This is because they will be revealed in their own time as God deems for the books to be opened and let it play out.
And yes we are in agreement that it is a stringed instrument, which means an instrument can be used. Everything is to be done from the heart, because from the heart is where our love comes from. So if your motive is from the heart, then while playing the instrument the music will be played in love and praise to God.

Just like ones faith, it comes from hearing the word which develops that love in the heart for Him. Which then shows with our outer actions, if your outer actions do not reflect your faith and love then it is a false or dead faith like James said.
Then keep reading on Colossians as verse 17 continues the command;

Colossians 3:17
And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

 

[Jabberjaw]

I couldn't imagine singing amazing grace with out music and most people can't sing (here here) and the music drowns it out to a point. Yeah it don't say in NT, but in the OT music was an integral part of worship. I meant if there were musical instruments in the temple why not in the church.

That scripture in 2 Peter says no prophecy is of private interpretation.
This is because they will be revealed in their own time as God deems for the books to be opened and let it play out.
And yes we are in agreement that it is a stringed instrument, which means an instrument can be used. Everything is to be done from the heart, because from the heart is where our love comes from. So if your motive is from the heart, then while playing the instrument the music will be played in love and praise to God.

Just like ones faith, it comes from hearing the word which develops that love in the heart for Him. Which then shows with our outer actions, if your outer actions do not reflect your faith and love then it is a false or dead faith like James said.
Then keep reading on Colossians as verse 17 continues the command;

Colossians 3:17
And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

I included both of you, because the answer becomes the same, how do we get around this :

Colossians 3:16 (KJV) Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.


How with a literal stringed instrument do we "teach and admonish one another" with a guitar or any other physical stringed instrument...

The "sing" is words that "teach" like a "sermon" is words that teach, and sitting together "reading the word of God" to one another is to "teach", how do you comply with this command with the guitar?

Either everyone is to "sing" praises to God, or everyone must learn to play the guitar, because the command is "one to another" or for "all"

 

[posthuman]

How with a literal stringed instrument do we "teach and admonish one another" with a guitar or any other physical stringed instrument...

how do you know what season it is, being as how nature doesn't speak with a voice?

 

[Jabberjaw]

I couldn't imagine singing amazing grace with out music and most people can't sing (here here) and the music drowns it out to a point. Yeah it don't say in NT, but in the OT music was an integral part of worship. I meant if there were musical instruments in the temple why not in the church.

Actually the command is to "sing", he didn't say "sing good" lol... and its a good thing there are lots of others "singing at the same time" because they make it harder to hear me lol...

no matter the voice that sings in silence, like the one that prays in silence (maybe a mute) or the one that shouts out wonderful song or one that cannot carry a tune, they are all a creation of God, and sound wonderful to Him when done to glorify Him.

 

[Lynx]

I wonder what would happen if I brought a computer with Ableton Live to church and played some dubstep... Or some breakbeat, yeah!

 

[posthuman]

Actually the command is to "sing", he didn't say "sing good" lol...

hmm...

.. i don't know .. . .

... sounds an awful lot like "make a joyful noise unto the Lord!"

.. and we know which book that verse comes from ..



if you want to stick with the NT isn't it written "be perfect" ?

 

[kennethcadwell]

I included both of you, because the answer becomes the same, how do we get around this :

Colossians 3:16 (KJV) Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.


How with a literal stringed instrument do we "teach and admonish one another" with a guitar or any other physical stringed instrument...

The "sing" is words that "teach" like a "sermon" is words that teach, and sitting together "reading the word of God" to one another is to "teach", how do you comply with this command with the guitar?

Either everyone is to "sing" praises to God, or everyone must learn to play the guitar, because the command is "one to another" or for "all"

Well first the words part is what does the teaching and admonishing, but it still once again does not eliminate that the instrument can be used.
Second for those who knows music, know that you can show attitude, love, and sorrow through sound. Why do you think some music is uplifting, some will put you to sleep, and others will make you want to pull your hair out.

Now your trying to force everybody to do this as if it is a necessary command for salvation. That would be false once again as we are each given different positions and gifts in the faith. If you want to just sing with no music that is fine, and you can do that. But if another wants to use instruments and have music then they can to.

 

[Kerry]

Anointed music with singing or not is the highest form of praise. This was lucifers job before he rebelled and the reason why music is so perverted today. He uses what he is good at.

 

[Jabberjaw]

Well first the words part is what does the teaching and admonishing, but it still once again does not eliminate that the instrument can be used.

We are told the instrument played is the heart, any other instrument is without authorization.

Second for those who knows music, know that you can show attitude, love, and sorrow through sound. Why do you think some music is uplifting, some will put you to sleep, and others will make you want to pull your hair out.

would a deaf mute go to see a symphony play? but with a book of songs, like a silent prayer he/she can sing and praise God.

Now your trying to force everybody to do this as if it is a necessary command for salvation. That would be false once again as we are each given different positions and gifts in the faith. If you want to just sing with no music that is fine, and you can do that. But if another wants to use instruments and have music then they can to.

I did not make the command to "sing" for "all", God did, I did not say it was salvific, I am not a judge, I only know the Bible said "sing" "to the Lord", he did not say "Play" "to the Lord"

 

[Nautilus]

We had our normal praise band this morning and it was wonderful spirit filled worship

 

[kennethcadwell]

We are told the instrument played is the heart, any other instrument is without authorization.



would a deaf mute go to see a symphony play? but with a book of songs, like a silent prayer he/she can sing and praise God.



I did not make the command to "sing" for "all", God did, I did not say it was salvific, I am not a judge, I only know the Bible said "sing" "to the Lord", he did not say "Play" "to the Lord"

Reading to much into it still, leave it up to the Holy Spirit to tell people rather they can use them or not.
That is right you are not the judge, so let the Holy Spirit guide that church and every church I have been to or a part of the Holy Spirit worked in those churches and let them use music.
Then you used the example of a deaf mute, and that is just lame as a deaf muter would not be able to hear you sing either. So what good would music or words spoken to them if they can not hear you any way. And worship does not have to be done in silence.

 

[Kerry]

Jabberjaw, I meant wasn't that a cartoon from my youth, anyway if you enjoy praising God without music, then I rejoice because you are praising God, have fun brother.

 

[MsLimpet]

We had our normal praise band this morning and it was wonderful spirit filled worship

Do you go by the bible or what feels good to you? I do not see in the bible where having a "band" is authorized.

 

[Tintin]

Do you go by the bible or what feels good to you? I do not see in the bible where having a "band" is authorized.

Oh, good gravy! How many of you are there on CC? I don't see in the Internet and computers/phones/laptops being authorized in the Bible and you're making use of any number of them. How could you? Bazinga!

 

[Tintin]

Do you go by the bible or what feels good to you? I do not see in the bible where having a "band" is authorized.

I think you missed the bit about the worship being Spirit filled. Or maybe you just care about the stuff that doesn't matter.