It Is satanic Heresy to Deny Eternal Security
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M
What does that mean? You guys think if you talk in religious tones and sound like you have some place in the things of God that others will be impressed? Well Im not at all and I don't think any of you speak for God in any way. 
you guys are teaching that faith requires doubt...that unbiblical and just silly religious nonsense.
you guys are teaching that faith requires doubt...that unbiblical and just silly religious nonsense.Someone opined "but the only biblical way to "fall from grace" is to return to law of Moses."
As I read scripture, when law is decried either as a way of being saved or sanctified, it seems to me that the argument does not depend upon "the law of Moses." IT could be any law or moral code, whether that given Noah, the law written in the conscience. Moses' law, the Teachings of Jesus on earth, or the directions given in the epistles to the Church. Law condemns and law raises sin. "I was alive once apart from the law, but when the law came, sin revived and I died. . . . I am carnal sold under sin."
The specific sin in Romans 7 is lust = coveting, desiring to do something that God does not want us to do, epithymia. Lust is always a sin, regardless of dispensation. Law is like a sign that says, "Don't spit here." Now put a sign like that in public & see what happens. People have this urge to spit on the sign.
I think even the modern morality would work the same way, as we are told that those who preach vs global warming, are flying around in jets heating the air, belching out carbon.
When I was in Jr High a teacher had a little plaque on the wall saying like, "If you ain't got nothing to do, don't do it here." Someone stuck a piece of chewing gum on it.
Law leads to moral frustration or to hypocritical Phariseeism, whereby people play with the rules & claim they are righteous by those rules. If it leads to moral frustration, it may help a person realize his depravity & turn to His only hope in the Savior, who will save His people from their sins.
Falling from grace is like hearing the teaching of salvation by grace, then rejecting it for law-works. Falling from grace is like a dog chasing a truck, but the dog never catches the truck & falls away. It doesn't mean a person trusted Christ as His by-grace Savior. This is typical of those who want to claim you can lose salvation, though those 2 words never occur together even in one verse. So they take passages which don't speak of save, Savior, or salvation, and want to argue from them, instead of simply believing God's direct word:
Believe on the Lord Jesus, & thou shalt be saved.
As I read scripture, when law is decried either as a way of being saved or sanctified, it seems to me that the argument does not depend upon "the law of Moses." IT could be any law or moral code, whether that given Noah, the law written in the conscience. Moses' law, the Teachings of Jesus on earth, or the directions given in the epistles to the Church. Law condemns and law raises sin. "I was alive once apart from the law, but when the law came, sin revived and I died. . . . I am carnal sold under sin."
The specific sin in Romans 7 is lust = coveting, desiring to do something that God does not want us to do, epithymia. Lust is always a sin, regardless of dispensation. Law is like a sign that says, "Don't spit here." Now put a sign like that in public & see what happens. People have this urge to spit on the sign.
I think even the modern morality would work the same way, as we are told that those who preach vs global warming, are flying around in jets heating the air, belching out carbon.
When I was in Jr High a teacher had a little plaque on the wall saying like, "If you ain't got nothing to do, don't do it here." Someone stuck a piece of chewing gum on it.
Law leads to moral frustration or to hypocritical Phariseeism, whereby people play with the rules & claim they are righteous by those rules. If it leads to moral frustration, it may help a person realize his depravity & turn to His only hope in the Savior, who will save His people from their sins.
Falling from grace is like hearing the teaching of salvation by grace, then rejecting it for law-works. Falling from grace is like a dog chasing a truck, but the dog never catches the truck & falls away. It doesn't mean a person trusted Christ as His by-grace Savior. This is typical of those who want to claim you can lose salvation, though those 2 words never occur together even in one verse. So they take passages which don't speak of save, Savior, or salvation, and want to argue from them, instead of simply believing God's direct word:
Believe on the Lord Jesus, & thou shalt be saved.
Well how bout missing the point altogether. You tell human flesh that what they got, they can't lose, you r inviting disaster for many, not all but many. You and I both know many brothers and sisters in Christ that struggle with besetting sins. Maybe not you, but others. Wish it wasn't the case but that's reality.
Well, some may be that way; but I think it is more likely that the works-salvation fanatics are unwilling to admit their own depravity & how sinful they really are, so that they may never be saved but by the grace of God. IMHO: A problem with grace, & why I think so many oppose it, is that its correlary is Total Depravity, & sinful men want validation, not salvation. They are deluded that God is going to approve of their filthy rags righteousnesses.
M
Why do you express such a desire to follow after sin ? When the bible clearly teaches that the grace of God has made us slaves of righteousness and not to sin? Maybe its because you guys are under some religious system that makes sin attractive to you and need to be set free from that system? Maybe the strength of sin is the law...and you guys have been under false teachers and have been sold a false gospel?
It is indeed an interesting question. Place into the context in which it is given and you will see that your exegesis is off by quite a bit.
Christians live by the faith of Christ. This faith is God given through the word of God.
It is not my faith but the faith of Christ that saves and keeps me saved. Christ ministers my salvation eternally.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Christians live by the faith of Christ. This faith is God given through the word of God.
It is not my faith but the faith of Christ that saves and keeps me saved. Christ ministers my salvation eternally.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Is every person that seeks the will of Yah trying to "earn" salvation?
and how do you know who is doing what?
I ask because you freely call people fallen, children of the devil, etc
Mattithyah 7:21-23, "Not everyone who says to Me; Teacher! Teacher! will enter into the Kingdom of Yahweh, but only he who does the will of My Father Who is in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day; Teacher! Teacher! Have we not prophesied in Your Name, and cast out demons in Your Name, and in Your Name performed many wonderful works? But then I will declare to them; I never knew you. Get away from Me, you who practice iniquity."
and how do you know who is doing what?
I ask because you freely call people fallen, children of the devil, etc
Mattithyah 7:21-23, "Not everyone who says to Me; Teacher! Teacher! will enter into the Kingdom of Yahweh, but only he who does the will of My Father Who is in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day; Teacher! Teacher! Have we not prophesied in Your Name, and cast out demons in Your Name, and in Your Name performed many wonderful works? But then I will declare to them; I never knew you. Get away from Me, you who practice iniquity."
Those in Mathew 7 certainly appear guilty of what you suggest. Religious but lost. This could be children of Israel who are outside of Christ yet very religious in their worship according to the Jewish traditions.
I cannot judge any more than you can judge but I always worry when folks believe grace is conditioned on our efforts. God gifts salvation by grace. It is hard for many to receive that God can give so much with no expectation of reward. How do we comprehend the love of God toward men who hate and despise purity and holiness?
For the cause of Christ
Roger
I cannot judge any more than you can judge but I always worry when folks believe grace is conditioned on our efforts. God gifts salvation by grace. It is hard for many to receive that God can give so much with no expectation of reward. How do we comprehend the love of God toward men who hate and despise purity and holiness?
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Because He said, "Not everyone who says to Me; Teacher! Teacher!" "Many will say to Me in that day; Teacher! Teacher! Have we not prophesied in Your Name, and cast out demons in Your Name, and in Your Name performed many wonderful works? "
People that follow tradition be it jewish, or anything IMO are not even "in the game" (not saying they will never change, I have no clue what tomorrow will bring)
I think this HAS to be talking about people who seek to follow Yahshua/Jesus, this passage is one of the most important things for me to understand, because the worst and most terrifying thing possible would be to end up on the wrong side of this...
I looked at the words closely when I studied this, and im open to hear other opinions, but I can listen to an opinion that does not consider what is written (not implying you just stating)
but how do I avoid this I thought.....
"only he who does the will of My Father Who is in heaven."
So I have to do His Fathers will. (oversimplification is a grasp at error IMO)
but the reason is directly given:
"Get away from Me, you who practice iniquity"
practicing is doing.
Iniquity is Lawlessness.
Since none of us can be perfect while in the flesh, man im scared, then I read this:
1 John 1:8-10, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us."
So if we look at the Strong's definition:
iniquity is:#0458 anomia {an-om-ee'-ah} from G0459
Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
1) the condition of without law
1a) because ignorant of it
1b) because of violating it
2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness
The only realistic view I can take from this is, it is not about PERFECT obedience, it is about submission, those who resist the standard I think are the ones in trouble. (I make no person to person claim, I dont know what people think or do, and its not my place to)
It is clear those that are the seed of Yah keep and have faith:
Revelation 12:17, "And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went to make war with those who forsook her seed; her seed being those who keep the Laws of Yahweh, and have the testimony of Yahshua Messiah."
1785. entolé
Definition: an ordinance, injunction, command, law.
and there is this:
Daniyl 7:25, "And he will speak great words against Yahweh, and will wear out the saints of Yahweh, and think to change times and Laws..."
Isayah 24:1-6, "Behold, Yahweh makes the earth empty and makes it waste, perverts the face of it and scatters abroad its inhabitants; And it will be: as with the people, so with the priest; as with the servant, so with his owner; as with the maid, so with her mistress; as with the buyer, so with the seller; as with the lender, so with the borrower; as with him who takes usury, so with him who gives usury to him: The land will be utterly emptied and utterly plundered, for Yahweh has spoken this word. The earth mourns and fades away, the world mourns and fades away, and the haughty people of the earth languish. The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants of it, because they have transgressed the Laws, changed the ordinance, and broken the everlasting covenant. Because of this, the curse has devoured the earth, and they who dwell therein are desolate; therefore, the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left."
I could post a ton of more verses but this gets my view across I think?
So again im open to other views, but I ask that we dont skip any of HIS words in the passage 7:21-23.
People that follow tradition be it jewish, or anything IMO are not even "in the game" (not saying they will never change, I have no clue what tomorrow will bring)
I think this HAS to be talking about people who seek to follow Yahshua/Jesus, this passage is one of the most important things for me to understand, because the worst and most terrifying thing possible would be to end up on the wrong side of this...
I looked at the words closely when I studied this, and im open to hear other opinions, but I can listen to an opinion that does not consider what is written (not implying you just stating)
but how do I avoid this I thought.....
"only he who does the will of My Father Who is in heaven."
So I have to do His Fathers will. (oversimplification is a grasp at error IMO)
but the reason is directly given:
"Get away from Me, you who practice iniquity"
practicing is doing.
Iniquity is Lawlessness.
Since none of us can be perfect while in the flesh, man im scared, then I read this:
1 John 1:8-10, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us."
So if we look at the Strong's definition:
iniquity is:#0458 anomia {an-om-ee'-ah} from G0459
Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
1) the condition of without law
1a) because ignorant of it
1b) because of violating it
2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness
The only realistic view I can take from this is, it is not about PERFECT obedience, it is about submission, those who resist the standard I think are the ones in trouble. (I make no person to person claim, I dont know what people think or do, and its not my place to)
It is clear those that are the seed of Yah keep and have faith:
Revelation 12:17, "And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went to make war with those who forsook her seed; her seed being those who keep the Laws of Yahweh, and have the testimony of Yahshua Messiah."
1785. entolé
Definition: an ordinance, injunction, command, law.
and there is this:
Daniyl 7:25, "And he will speak great words against Yahweh, and will wear out the saints of Yahweh, and think to change times and Laws..."
Isayah 24:1-6, "Behold, Yahweh makes the earth empty and makes it waste, perverts the face of it and scatters abroad its inhabitants; And it will be: as with the people, so with the priest; as with the servant, so with his owner; as with the maid, so with her mistress; as with the buyer, so with the seller; as with the lender, so with the borrower; as with him who takes usury, so with him who gives usury to him: The land will be utterly emptied and utterly plundered, for Yahweh has spoken this word. The earth mourns and fades away, the world mourns and fades away, and the haughty people of the earth languish. The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants of it, because they have transgressed the Laws, changed the ordinance, and broken the everlasting covenant. Because of this, the curse has devoured the earth, and they who dwell therein are desolate; therefore, the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left."
I could post a ton of more verses but this gets my view across I think?
So again im open to other views, but I ask that we dont skip any of HIS words in the passage 7:21-23.
K
You still do not understand repentance.
Repentance is not a change of mind going from unbelief to belief.
Your belief is established from hearing the word, not repentance. Repentance of your sins is a response to your belief, as you then have a change of mind toward the sins you commit that make you enmity to God. That Godly sorrow you feel makes you want to turn away from them and not continue in them any more.
Man alone can not do nothing pleasing to God, which is why the Holy Spirit was sent here.
To guide us and help us in areas we are weak in, leading us to abstain from all forms of sin. A true born again believer will feel the conviction of the Lord through the Holy Spirit, and if you do sin then you will feel His chastising leading you to confess that sin for forgiveness. The bible makes this clear that these are part of your life as a believer, and those who have the Holy Spirit would not deny this....
Then you keep saying trusting your Savior to save you is true belief, which is true. But how can one say they trust Him to be that Savior if they deny to follow and keep what He taught and commanded. Lord Jesus and Paul both say this is not possible, and in the bible it either list those who do not do what He said as either goats, or illegitimate.
Repentance is not a change of mind going from unbelief to belief.
Your belief is established from hearing the word, not repentance. Repentance of your sins is a response to your belief, as you then have a change of mind toward the sins you commit that make you enmity to God. That Godly sorrow you feel makes you want to turn away from them and not continue in them any more.
Man alone can not do nothing pleasing to God, which is why the Holy Spirit was sent here.
To guide us and help us in areas we are weak in, leading us to abstain from all forms of sin. A true born again believer will feel the conviction of the Lord through the Holy Spirit, and if you do sin then you will feel His chastising leading you to confess that sin for forgiveness. The bible makes this clear that these are part of your life as a believer, and those who have the Holy Spirit would not deny this....
Then you keep saying trusting your Savior to save you is true belief, which is true. But how can one say they trust Him to be that Savior if they deny to follow and keep what He taught and commanded. Lord Jesus and Paul both say this is not possible, and in the bible it either list those who do not do what He said as either goats, or illegitimate.
K
I am not judging others, as you are making false claims again.
It is amazing how a few of you do this on here, take and read more into what somebody said and then say something they did not.
What I said in that paragraph comes directly from the bible, mostly from 1st and 2nd Timothy.
Apostle Paul warning Apostle Timothy of sins and how he is to instruct others in his teaching, and nowhere does it say always be polite or water it down softly so a lie can be accepted. He tells Timothy to first show tough love by reprimanding them and rebuking them, and then to exhort or edify them in the proper teaching.
I see so much of this watered down gospel from the 80's and this false Paulinian gospel being pedaled around so much, no wonder their is a great falling away coming. People are by the boat loads walking around the sound doctrine of the Lord to preach their own man made doctrines, and false teaching of Paul teaching a different gospel then Jesus and doing away with His teachings and commands.
What ever happened to the final command in great commission that so many want to ignore now ?
Well Jesus came to Israel and not to the Gentiles. So I see in the context of when this is spoken it is prophetic to Israel. The church which now is mostly Gentile is known of Christ in that to be church they must have received His as Savior. Now I can see within the church tares who claim to have done many wonders for Him. I'm thinking Pentecostals and charismatics in particular who profess but do not possess Christ. Verse 23 Christ says I knew you not. Clearly there is no personal relationship present in these to whom He is speaking. Could be Israel who worship with their lips but their heart is far from Him.
1 John is speaking to believers about their need to receive continuing restoration in their walk with Christ. I tie this into Christ washing the feet of the disciples. They were clean but needed their feet to be washed. Quite the picture here of the believer and the Savior.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
1 John is speaking to believers about their need to receive continuing restoration in their walk with Christ. I tie this into Christ washing the feet of the disciples. They were clean but needed their feet to be washed. Quite the picture here of the believer and the Savior.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
What shall I say? You are above reproof? You know everything and it is obvious from what you write that you will not hear anything you have not already determined for yourself? Are you ever learning and never coming to the knowledge of the truth? There is no virtue in any doctrine no matter how dearly held that is unbiblical.
You start your post with a judgment and end it with a denial of judging.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
You start your post with a judgment and end it with a denial of judging.
For the cause of Christ
Roger